Do you believe that ALL babies that die go to Heaven or only "the elect"?

[Angelina]

And so you don't believe what God said in Psalms 58:3-8 :
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison [is] like the poison of a serpent: [they are] like the deaf adder [that] stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters [which] run continually: [when] he bendeth [his bow to shoot] his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail [which] melteth, let [every one of them] pass away: [like] the untimely birth of a woman, [that] they may not see the sun.

How about Romans 3:10:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (this includes babies and children; without exceptions).
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Or,

11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

To God Be The Glory

I do not believe children are born wicked. I believe that children are born into a wicked world because of sin. During their growth, they come to the knowledge of good and evil. In that understanding, they choose their path. If sin meant that children born to mankind would be wicked, I am sure that God would have killed Adam and Eve right after the fall. The question that should have been posed here is - where do souls come from? The bible tells us that souls come from God since the beginning.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

Romans 9:11-13
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What does Jesus say about children?

Matthew 11:25
But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

Did God curse Eve's children after the fall?

To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”

No, he did not....

 

[Lambano]

I do not believe children are born wicked. I believe that children are born into a wicked world because of sin. During their growth, they come to the knowledge of good and evil. In that understanding, they choose their path. If sin meant that children born to mankind would be wicked, I am sure that God would have killed Adam and Eve right after the fall.

There's a quote attributed to G.K. Chesterton: "The doctrine of Depravity is the one Christian dogma that is empirically verifiable."

We were studying Romans in our Bible Study group, and we were talking about The Fall. Our leader and in his wife were taking care of their little granddaughter at the time, and he noted that while we talk about babies being so cute and innocent, they exhibit the inherent self-centeredness that is the root cause of sin. They are focused on their own needs, and they don't care if it inconveniences someone else (like their grandparents). They want they want when they want it, and they'll scream and cry until they get it. Any love they have for others is purely transactional. No wonder 100% of them grow up to be sinners.

Where did we get this inherent predilection for sin?

Sin desires to have you, but you must master it. (Genesis 4:7)

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it fit to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to an unfit mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. (Romans 1:28-29a, and there's a play on words in the Greek between "think it fit" and "unfit mind". I love that Paul is a bit of a punster.)

I couldn't deny that every member of the human race exhibits some of the "wickedness, greed, and depravity" listed in Roman 21-31. Where did we get this "unfit mind"? (And I see plenty of unfit minds walking around.) Everything that we are was given to us by our Creator. Babies are born selfish with the God-given desire to know experientially Good and Evil. And yet we keep making them and loving them, just as our Heavenly Father keeps us around and loves us.

A little ecclesiastical history for anybody who cares about such things: Jacob Arminius broke from the followers of John Calvin not because Calvinism depicts an unjust and unloving God, though that may or may not be true. He broke with Calvin because the doctrine later called "Total Depravity" made God the Author of Sin.

 

[St. SteVen]

A little ecclesiastical history for anybody who cares about such things: Jacob Arminius broke from the followers of John Calvin not because Calvinism depicts an unjust and unloving God, though that may or may not be true. He broke with Calvin because the doctrine later called "Total Depravity" made God the Author of Sin.

I feel the same way about vehicular homicide when alcohol is involved.
Obviously the murderer wasn't driving at the time, the alcohol was.

Why did God put The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the center of the garden? (orchard)
Not really a preventative measure.

/

 

[JunChosen]

Hey junchosen,

I asked you if Hosea 6 might be meant for you. You say YES but then go on to say BEFORE God changed your "stoney heart"!!

Sooooooo does that mean that Hosea 6 no longer applies to you?????? YOU are not destroyed for lack of knowledge therefor YOU will not be rejected by God???

Curious Mary


Hosea 6: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

You said it!

This is the reason why we should understand the Word of God before we present them to those who are unlearned.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Angelina]

I disagree with you @Lambano - Sin desires to have you, but you must master it. (Genesis 4:7) Adam's son had knowledge of what is good and what is evil and he chose his path. You're basically saying that all children are born sinners. I'm saying that children are born into a sinful world. Children originate from God. They are not born with a moral compass. When they grow to the age of knowledge of good and evil (moral compass), they choose to either give in to sinful pressures which is in the world or they choose to do what is right. What is right is measured by what they learn through their parents, grandparents, school, the law, Godly influences spiritual or otherwise or any other outside influence, that has taught them, what they believe to be right. Both doing what is right and wrong doing (sin).

(Similar to what happened in the garden) Sin has it's consequences. Something we learn as we go through life...

Psalms 127:3-5
3. Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord,
the fruit of the womb a reward.
4. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior
are the children[ of one's youth]
5. Blessed is the man
who fills his quiver with them!
He shall not be put to shame
when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

BTW: I am not a OSAS advocate.

 

[Marymog]

You said it!

This is the reason why we should understand the Word of God before we present them to those who are unlearned.

To God Be The Glory

Ummmmmm.....Are you going to answer the questions? Here they are again:

does that mean that Hosea 6 no longer applies to you?????? YOU are not destroyed for lack of knowledge therefor YOU will not be rejected by God???

 

[Marymog]

The only humans created that had free will were Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity is tainted with their sin, hence we are NOT capable of choosing for Christ.

We can however; choose to sleep at a certain time, get up at certain time in the morning, eat breakfast at 7:00 A.M., put on a brown or blue suit for work etc.. etc., etc.



To Go Be The Glory

You do realize that what you are saying is OPPOSITE of what Scripture teaches? Scripture makes it clear that Jesus preached the Truth! Some accepted it, some rejected. The Apostles preached the Truth. Some accepted it, some rejected it. They accepted or rejected it of their own free will. If they were "chosen" before hand to accept or reject it then there would have been no reason to preach the Truth. Why does HEARING the Truth have to happen if you are already "chosen" by Him. Your theory makes no sense.

If they didn't accept Him of their own free will and, according to your theory, they were forced to accept Jesus because Jesus chose them then that means the "chosen" can never reject Him even though millions have rejected Him after they were "chosen" by Him. I know, I know, your men have taught you that those that fall away from Him were never really "chosen" by Him......but Scripture destroys that theory also.

Scripture says we live by faith and not by sight. You seem to be suggesting faith has nothing to do with it because if you ain't "chosen" your faith doesn't matter.

BTW....Matthew 23:37 has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with free will. Your Protestant men have lied to you.

 

[Marymog]

You thought wrong! Where did you read that in Scripture?

Romans 3:10-12 reads:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

If God's assessment of the human race is such as of the above, who then can or cannot choose for God, n-o-n-e!

To Go Be The Glory

 

[Marymog]

I will never call a person who claims to be a Christian, "not a Christian". That's God's business.

Did I answer your question?

To God Be The Glory

Hey junchosen,

I appreciate your attempts to clarify what you believe and why you believe it but.....NO....you did not answer my question.

When you suggest to me that I have not been "chosen" then you are telling me I am not a Christian....... You are suggesting to me that I only THINK I am a Christan.

Thank you for your time.......Mary

 

[Marymog]

I will never call a person who claims to be a Christian, "not a Christian". That's God's business.

Did I answer your question?

To God Be The Glory

Well, I don't believe what you believe and you consider yourself a Christian. Right? Soooo if I don't believe what you (a chosen one) believe then I must not be a Christian. Right?

curious Mary

 

[JunChosen]

Ummmmmm.....Are you going to answer the questions? Here they are again:

does that mean that Hosea 6 no longer applies to you?????? YOU are not destroyed for lack of knowledge therefor YOU will not be rejected by God???

Those who fall under Hosea 6 will not be destroyed until after judgment day. Unless you have a different interpretation from that of Hosea 6, I would like to hear it.

 

[JunChosen]

There's a quote attributed to G.K. Chesterton: "The doctrine of Depravity is the one Christian dogma that is empirically verifiable."

They want they want when they want it, and they'll scream and cry until they get it. Any love they have for others is purely transactional. No wonder 100% of them grow up to be sinners

Lol. Mankind by nature have reprobate minds

Where did we get this inherent predilection for sin?

From our father and mother. "As in Adam ALL die."

Sin desires to have you, but you must master it. (Genesis 4:7)

Really??? I suggest you read Romans Chapter 7.

Plus, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the Devil and he will flee from you.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it fit to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to an unfit mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. (Romans 1:28-29a, and there's a play on words in the Greek between "think it fit" and "unfit mind". I love that Paul is a bit of a punster.)

I don't believe Paul would joke about the gravity of man's spiritual condition!

I couldn't deny that every member of the human race exhibits some of the "wickedness, greed, and depravity" listed in Roman 21-31. Where did we get this "unfit mind"? (And I see plenty of unfit minds walking around.) Everything that we are was given to us by our Creator. Babies are born selfish with the God-given desire to know experientially Good and Evil. And yet we keep making them and loving them, just as our Heavenly Father keeps us around and loves us.

As I've already made assessment above, mankind by nature have reprobate minds. BTW, there are no Romans Chapters 21-31.

A little ecclesiastical history for anybody who cares about such things: Jacob Arminius broke from the followers of John Calvin not because Calvinism depicts an unjust and unloving God, though that may or may not be true. He broke with Calvin because the doctrine later called "Total Depravity" made God the Author of Sin.

Again, "as in Adam ALL die," (including babies).

To God Be The Glory

 

[Marymog]

Those who fall under Hosea 6 will not be destroyed until after judgment day. Unless you have a different interpretation from that of Hosea 6, I would like to hear it.

No, I don't have a different interpretation. I was just curious what your men have taught you.



Mary

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I think all babies that die to to Heaven, although I don't know that I can back that belief with scripture.

Might be argued that it would be better for all people if they all died as babies so that they would all go to Heaven rather than growing into adulthood and risking being condemned to Hell?

Do you think Noah's Flood was judgment against adolesants and adults only?
A bad tree produces bad fruit. We are all born sinners and salvation comes to those who love God, who have faith in God - and their children. The Bible says, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Acts 16:31
And those who lived by faith in the true God before Christ, forgiveness and salvation was imputed to them as it was in the future for us.
Death, destruction of both body and soul in the Lake of Fire is reserved for reprobates.
Why would God favor their children? They are sinners, born that way and according to the Bible our state is fixed until we are born again.
Life includes this dilemma of the fallen state and a process that takes time for us to be reconciled to Christ. In life we learn about good and evil, have choices and so this is our purpose. A life cut short does not go through the essential life changing experiences and revelations that ultimately lead to salvation, finish the process and our faith and God's purpose for us.

When Jesus comforted the children _ amongst the Jews who believed ... " But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” Matt.18:14

So let's look at that verse. They were children of Jews, believers in Christ _ who came to Jesus. They were drawn to God, drawn by His love, desired a relationship.

Isn't that whole idea about salvation? But he also implied that we must come to Him like children, in humility and reprobates nor their children come to Him.

I could be wrong about this. ???

Let's speculate a little. Let's say a Christian's baby dies young. Well, his parents likely asked for God's love and blessings even during pregnancy. They prayed to God and dedicated the child to the Lord. Family prayers went up to the Lord. "This is your child, Lord; protect him/her and guide him/her as he/she should go and may they come to the knowledge of You, through Your Word as they follow and obey You. May they grow in faith and love for You and others; open their heart Lord, as they submit to your will and abide in You, according to Your Holy plan and purpose for them"... or something like that. Now this baby is and will be blessed, because you asked and because He promised, "you and your household will be saved". So, at death, they are escorted to heaven. God knows them, as they have been dedicated to Him by the parents. He/she is in the family. And actually their deceased family members ( who were also believers) have been waiting for them to greet and welcome them. They are home.

Now, let's look at the reprobates baby who dies, a child from a bad seed, a false religion, an evil and wicked person. What blessing do they have? What prayers to the true God were offered? What dedication to God was given in lieu of Christ's blood atonement? Did God draw these children to Himself because of His love or promise to their parents?
Even if they were allowed in heaven and rendered forgiven ( something they nor anyone else in their family asked for); and they grew to be children in heaven, what identity would they have? Who would greet them? They might ask, "Who am I, where did I come from ... who were my parents and what was life all about on earth? What would the answer be? "Well, your father was Joseph Stalin, who btw was responsible for tens of millions of deaths";
or a different answer might be, "Your mother was a prostitute who dumped you in a dumpster after she bea you and smothered you with a pillow" ... or "Listen, your parents were Hindu, they believed in false gods and dedicated you to an endless cycle of reincarnation, which doesn't exist. None of your family members are here and so this is why no one has come to greet you, nobody knows who you are, nor have I had a relationship with you"; or yet another answer, "Your father is the leader of the Hamas, who just waged war against Israel, was responsible for 1400 deaths and just the other day chopped off babies heads! He thought he would have 70 virgins waiting for him in heaven and that his children would be blessed by Allah, who is not Me btw." The child sighs, oh! Well, not long after He told them the truth of who they are, would he have to wipe those thoughts out their memories; for who would want those thoughts for eternity?
Do these children belong in heaven? I don't think they do nor would they fit in. Unless their past, their parents
whom they came from, was just wiped clean, as if never being part of humamity.???
It seems like this idea goes against the whole concept of salvation being BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. And also that since their parents weren't in the Book of Life, why would their children be?
Wouldn't that also be counted as a blessing to their parents, that their kids got in? Reprobates get nothing, only judgment.