I've always said that people may be sent to the Lake of Fire. Where did I say that there isn't anybody there? I've simply stated that, if people are sent there, they don't remain there forever.
Do you believe that ALL babies that die go to Heaven or only "the elect"?
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Imagine having a giant estate that is enclosed with a high wall. And then imagine that wild rabbits, that you bred, are loose on the estate. And then imagine that you entice some of them to come to you to be fed or petted. What would you do about the rabbits that refuse to go to you? Would you trap them and then take revenge upon them by torturing them forever Would you do that?
JunChosen
Well-Known Member
Yes, God created everyone. No, God did not create anyone to suffer the tortures of Hell.
Adam and Eve were created good. No sin in them. In contrast, the rest of mankind inherited their sin of disobedience as the progenitors of mankind. Hence, "As in Adam ALL die."
The rest of your Scripture references does not pertain to the subject at hand.
Reggie Belafonte
Well-Known Member
The Souls go to Purgatory like everyone does.
Just as Jesus went to purgatory and took them worthy Jewish regarding God to Heaven with him.
Just as Jesus went to purgatory and took them worthy Jewish regarding God to Heaven with him.
JunChosen
Well-Known Member
People go to hell BECAUSE they are sinners {no ifs or buts}, specially those who do not have a Savior.
I'm afraid Hell is forever, at least the condition of it!
JunChosen
Well-Known Member
The words Purgatory or Limbo are not found in the Bible. And Jesus nor anyone EVER went to any kind of purgatory! Purgatory is a man made doctrine. The Catholic Church believes in purgatory because the word purgatory means "to purge."
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (paraphrased). 2 Corinthians 5:8.
Jesus told the thief, "Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise." Paradise is heaven.
To God Be The Glory
Many Christians say that all babies go to Heaven. That seems a sensible answer. But then it occurred to me that, why would anyone let their baby live to an age of understanding wherein their offspring would then risk being damned to an eternal Hell? Right? If ALL people that die as babies go to Heaven, then wouldn't it be both safe and loving to kill one's infant in order to ensure that they go to Heaven?
Does that even make sense? Is that the system that God set up? Yea, I don't think so either.
The only LOGICAL, and biblically consistent theology, is that EVERYBODY eventually goes to be with God in his kingdom. Some may have to go into the Lake of Fire for a spell but, in the end, Adolf Hitler, Moses, Karl Marx, and Mother Teresa will all be holding hands around a campfire singing Kumbaya.
Does that even make sense? Is that the system that God set up? Yea, I don't think so either.
The only LOGICAL, and biblically consistent theology, is that EVERYBODY eventually goes to be with God in his kingdom. Some may have to go into the Lake of Fire for a spell but, in the end, Adolf Hitler, Moses, Karl Marx, and Mother Teresa will all be holding hands around a campfire singing Kumbaya.
JunChosen
Well-Known Member
It may be sensible to you because you've never read Psalms 58:3-8.
WRONG! People don't have that kind of mentality but some may have.
Indeed it does! God said, "Thou shalt not kill."
The only Logical and biblical consistent theology??? I beg to differ. "The wages of sin is death." And everybody sins!
Sorry, but your system of beliefs are consistently false! Universal salvation is never taught in Scripture.Some may have to go into the Lake of Fire for a spell but, in the end, Adolf Hitler, Moses, Karl Marx, and Mother Teresa will all be holding hands around a campfire singing Kumbaya.
The only name that you've mentioned above that qualifies to go to heaven is "Moses."
To God Be The Glory
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JunChosen
Well-Known Member
Depends on the context. I believe God "refines" those whom He wishes to save, like refining iron and silver through fire.
To God Be The Glory
Reggie Belafonte
Well-Known Member
Oh ? Paradise is Heaven ? So Adam and ? were in Heaven were they ?
Not to mention, when did Jesus go to Heaven ? 3 days ? ring any bells !
So you claim that Jesus went to Heaven on that day ? not to mention with that dude.
Oh the word Purgatory can not be found, so it does not exist right, like the Trinity ? the word does not exist right ? but you will come across the fact in the bible that such does exist in fact, but one needs spiritual understanding and then it hits you as you read, and bingo ! you can see directly that what is mentioned is the Trinity in fact.
Talking to any atheist, I can see that the concepts of heaven and hell can be captured some what but if I were to enter into a Purgatory ? how does the atheist react ?
Now as for they who want willingly to go to Hell ? or claim no such thing ! or no such as Purgatory ! why is that ?
Ok you make it to Heaven ? but what of them who just did not make the grade ? Directly to Hell ? or maybe Gods Grace has a place for you ? your Soul ? not deserving Hell. Why because you were say knowing of God.
JunChosen
Well-Known Member
No. They were in the "Garden of Eden."
Scripture is very clear! "Today thou shall be with me in Paradise." Yes Jesus and that "dude" went to heaven after death.
The word "trinity" is not found in Holy Writ so are the words, "omniscient" and "omnipresent" also not found in Scripture. But you cannot deny a serious Bible student that they do not exist, that is that God is "All Almighty" and "Everywhere Present!!!" The word "purge" is in the Bible, it is just not a place.
Yes the Trinity does exist and can already be seen in Genesis 1:1 The word "God" is the plural Hebrew word "Elohim" meaning more than one!
Don't know I am NOT an atheist. Besides I've already concluded that there is no place called Purgatory
BECAUSE it is not taught in Scripture!!! The RCC claim that if a person go to Purgatory and if that person is prayed for for how ever long, he can still go to heaven. THAT IS A MAN MADE CONCEPT. Man's fate is sealed after death!
Salvation can NEVER be gained by knowledge of Scripture! To become saved a person must be chosen and elected by God in eternity past and before the foundation of the world, and be born from above.
To God Be The Glory
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Do you believe that ALL babies that die go to Heaven or only "the elect"?
The elect? Calvinism?"There are babies a span long in hell." John Calvin
The Bible does not address it.
There are a few traditions that address the topic of souls and newborns.
One of the reasons for infant baptism was because of the belief of Original Sin and the belief that babies were born with sin and would go to Hell if not baptized first.
Other than that we really do not have anything concrete on what happens when babies die.
I vote that angels come and collect the souls of dead babies and take them to Heaven......But no proof of that.
Reggie Belafonte
Well-Known Member
JunChosen
Well-Known Member
No!!! Although God created everything "good."
Read abut the story of Jacob and Esau. How God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they ever even did any thing wrong!
Actually - that's NOT necessarily true.
The person undergoing Final Purification (Purgatory) will make it to Heaven regardless of whether someone is praying for them or not. And make NO mistake - it IS Biblical.
Since Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven.
In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”
Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”
We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”
- This can’t be Heaven because the person suffers – and there is NO suffers in Heaven (Rev. 21:4).
- This can’t be Hell because the person is eventually SAVED.
- This is describing a THIRD state – that of Final Purification (Purgatory).
Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some.
Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.
JunChosen
Well-Known Member
I beg to differ. There is no time to pray for people in Purgatory as you claim, why? BECAUSE, it is appointed for men once to die then judgment!!!
Sorry, YOU just don't have any inkling at all as to the meaning of
1 Corinthians 3:12-15, just as you have no understanding of many Scriptures.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is dealing with "witnessing" and not as what you claim! This is a true exegete of the context.
To God Be The Glory
Yes - Final Purification (Purgatory) happens AFTER we are judged.
It’s a result of judgement – not an “addition” to it,
WRONG.
It is dealing with the “Day” of Judgement.
1 Cir. 3:10-15
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this
foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."
God is shown in the OT as the Great Refiner, who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver (Mal. 3:3, Jer. 6:27‐30, Ezek. 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10).
We see the SAME parallel here in 1 Cor. 3.
JunChosen
Well-Known Member
In a creation point, perhaps. Remember what God said of the twin brothers in Romans 9:11-16?:
11. (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Babies are included in the above passages!
To God Be The Glory
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