Do you guys support Ben Shapiro or Candace Owens in their lastest dispute over Israel and Gaza?

[Wrangler]

both parties are so sick and tired of war

That is precisely what the Islamic Jihadi's in Hamas and around the world are counting on.

Why Civilization Should Defend Zionism

Christians against nationalism or accept the lie that America is not and never was a Christian nation are misguided. The term “Zionism” often seems to be used with a negative connotation. Here, I lay out the reasons why the civilized nations of the world, in general, and America, in particular...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Mr E]

Well, that's the talking point of Islamic Jihadi propagandists for decades. Not sure about who used it in the Ben-Candace dispute.

The fact is, neither here nor in the Ben-Candace dispute did anyone accuse Israel of genocide.

I can condemn the barbaric behavior of Hamas (I do) and at the same time say 'no government should ever commit genocide.' The sentiments and the statements are entirely compatible, not mutually exclusive.

I have a brother-in-law who lives in Jordan (as a Christian missionary) who will criticize Israel all day long for their Zionist acts, while NEVER saying a harsh word against the Palestinians..... as if they never attacked on Oct 7. He's an idiot.

Don't be an idiot. There are two perspectives. I can condemn Hamas and criticize Israel in the same breath, although I haven't criticized Israel once. I defend their right to defend themselves AND YET still say- no government should ever commit genocide.

 

[Wrangler]

Candace never said she liked the Arabs, or supported them, or whatever, I think her point was that we need to take care of ourselves and fix our complex problems first rather than police the world, she said this in a recent interview about Ukraine also.

While I agree that we have to take care of our problems first, fighting for civilization against the Islamic Jihadi barbarians is our problem.

While their coming for Israel now, they've come for us in the past and will certainly come for us in the future if we don't stop them. It's better to fight them there than here.

 

[Wrangler]

The fact is, neither here nor in the Ben-Candace dispute did anyone accuse Israel of genocide.

Again, you are in denial. Context matters.

1. Did their dispute take place after Oct 7?
2. Was Candace talking to a Zionist Jew who is on record defending Israel's right to exist?
3. Did the Allies have the burden of genocide propaganda as a means to get them to give up victory in WWII?

 

[Mr E]

While I agree that we have to take care of our problems first, fighting for civilization against the Islamic Jihadi barbarians is our problem.

While their coming for Israel now, they've come for us in the past and will certainly come for us in the future if we don't stop them. It's better to fight them there than here.

``If we don't fight terrorists over there, we will have to fight them right here.'' (George W. Bush-- 2006 Global War on Terrorism- often quoted).

So we bombed the hell out of 'em and case closed..... that solved everything.

Peace in the valley ever since.

 

[Mr E]

Again, you are in denial. Context matters.

1. Did their dispute take place after Oct 7?
2. Was Candace talking to a Zionist Jew who is on record defending Israel's right to exist?
3. Did the Allies have the burden of genocide propaganda as a means to get them to give up victory in WWII?

1. ummmm..... yes. Context does matter.

2. No, she posted on Twitter that she opposes governmental genocide in all its forms.

3. What? lol. Context matters.

 

[Wrangler]

Peace in the valley ever since.

No. Welcome to reality. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance Thomas Jefferson said, not one and done.

 

[Wrangler]

According to this article, https://www.newsmax.com/politics/gaza-samaria-palestinians/2023/11/20/id/1142944/, 75% of the ‘peaceful’ Palestinians support the Oct 7 attack on Israel. Safe to say until this number is close to zero, the war will continue - even if you propagandize it by calling it genocide.

More from the article:
They’re neutral about whether it’s a good idea to rape and torture, and behead, burn alive and abduct women, men, children and infants.

Can you imagine if any European country was neutral about raping minorities?

 

[Mr E]

No. Welcome to reality. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance Thomas Jefferson said, not one and done.

I agree.... the whole fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them over here is a farce.

It doesn't work. How about protect our own homes, cities and borders and call that good?

 

[Wrangler]

I agree.... the whole fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them over here is a farce.

It doesn't work. How about protect our own homes, cities and borders and call that good?

Again, wrong. You are embracing the failed model of the Korean and Vietnam War where we fight up to a borderline. This is not how the USA fought the Confederacy!

Again World War II is a successful model to follow. We fought them over there, which is better than fighting them over here.

Israel is following the succcessful World War II model. They are not stopping at the Gaza border but annihiliating any and all Hamas anywhere in the world. I fully support Israel and their approach to defending the sovereign right to exist, their right to defend themselves. They did not start this war but they will end it with the same moral clarity we had in World War II - absolute victory.

Farce? What makes it a farce in your estimation?

 

[Wick Stick]

Farce? What makes it a farce in your estimation?

I think there's some merit to the idea, but... the fact that it was George W Bush that said it undermines it significantly.

 

[Scott Downey]

Raid video, shows women shot dead running from Hamas terrorists.

 

[Mr E]

Again, wrong. You are embracing the failed model of the Korean and Vietnam War where we fight up to a borderline. This is not how the USA fought the Confederacy!

Again World War II is a successful model to follow. We fought them over there, which is better than fighting them over here.

Israel is following the succcessful World War II model. They are not stopping at the Gaza border but annihiliating any and all Hamas anywhere in the world. I fully support Israel and their approach to defending the sovereign right to exist, their right to defend themselves. They did not start this war but they will end it with the same moral clarity we had in World War II - absolute victory.

Farce? What makes it a farce in your estimation?

Maybe brush up on a little history. We should never have been involved in the Korean and Vietnam wars. The US Civil war was wholly American, on our soil and for a worthy cause. That's the only kind of battle worth waging.
World War 2, we became involved when we were attacked. You might be familiar with Pearl Harbor? Japan breached our borders.

Compare to our 9-11. The Persian Gulf War was fought over there, so we didn't have to fight them over here. 1990-ish. Saddam Hussein crossed the border into Kuwait, so of course-- America had to intervene. We bombed the hell out of 'em and they tucked tail and ran home. Kuwait was liberated. Absolute victory.
Except by 2001, folks over there in that region didn't like America very much. This hatred manifested on September 11, 2001 so in 2003, we launched the Iraq War to eradicate Islamic terrorism over there, so we wouldn't have to fight it over here. We were determined to destroy all their weapons of mass destruction. We were determined to eliminate Saddam Hussein. It was the perfect pretense for what has now evolved into the never-ending Global War on Terror that has eroded so many of our freedoms here. Here. We might have won over there, but we lost over here.

But hey-- lots of Americans got really rich rebuilding what we destroyed. And now we are so loved by all.

That's what a farce is. But rather than comedic, it's tragic. Let's do Russia and Ukraine-- hurray! Put Taiwan and China on your calendar! Whoopee! Did we do Iran yet? Let's do Iran!


We would have been far better off fighting Communism and radical Islam here-- at OUR borders, inside OUR universities. We laid down our arms. We dozed off at our posts. We left the welcome mat on the doorstep and we were infiltrated primarily by refugees from all these foreign wars, many of whom now operate against us from within our government and institutions. Now we have to fight them over here because we fought them over there.

 

[Wrangler]

We would have been far better off fighting Communism and radical Islam here-- at OUR borders, inside OUR universities.

This I agree with.

That is with one caveat. It is not a zero sum game. As JFK said in his inaugural address, we will meet any burden, pay any price to safeguard liberty. Not just do one thing and we're done, liberty is safe for all time.

I wish it were that way but it is not. That's why it's not a farce.

I'd like to add one thing to your list -- at OUR media (TV, movies, etc). I was reminded recently that Hollywood used to be conservative. Married couples were depicted as sleeping in separate beds.

World War 2, we became involved when we were attacked. You might be familiar with Pearl Harbor? Japan breached our borders.

Same as October 7, when Hamas breached Israel's border. Only that attack dwarfed Pearl Harbor as a proportion of the population x 50.

Civilization is at constant war with barbarism. This is why I started this thread.

Why Civilization Should Defend Zionism

Christians against nationalism or accept the lie that America is not and never was a Christian nation are misguided. The term “Zionism” often seems to be used with a negative connotation. Here, I lay out the reasons why the civilized nations of the world, in general, and America, in particular...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Wrangler]

We were determined to destroy all their weapons of mass destruction. We were determined to eliminate Saddam Hussein. It was the perfect pretense for what has now evolved into the never-ending Global War on Terror that has eroded so many of our freedoms here. Here. We might have won over there, but we lost over here.

Agreed.

Life is messy. War is especially so. The Godfather said "don't let a crisis go to waste." And Nietsche said "be careful of pursuing the monster that you don't become the monster." The human experience is to always over compensate. The penduluum never stops right in the middle. But this is not a farce. This is life in this fallen world. Amen.

Saddam Hussein's dictatorship could not survive in a post 911 world. And I believe the bigger quagmire is not the justified war but dubious nation building with people who do not embrace our principles of liberty; they only trade one tyrant for another. This does not make fighting tyranny wrong - including the tyranny of the October 7 massacre by Hamas.

 

[Wrangler]

From the Hamas Charter:

• The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah. Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it
• Article 27: That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization - and what it can develop into - and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser.
• Article 28: The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion ... Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine. As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.
• Article 32: Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement ...Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason ... The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road.
• Article 36: It does not aim to compete against any one from among our people, or take his place. It will only serve as a support for all groupings and organizations operating against the Zionist enemy and its lackeys ... The Islamic Resistance Movement adopts Islam as its way of life. Islam is its creed and religion.

The Hamas Charter unequivocally and repeatedly states only conflict with Israel is its goal. Fascinating how the West buys into Islamic Jihadi propaganda that Israel is the problem!

 

[LouisWilliams]

No. Welcome to reality. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance Thomas Jefferson said, not one and done.

Yet the Founders in terms of foreign policy, also seemed to stress isolationalism. I generally respect and admire Ben Shapiro, yet I do NOT think we should blindly listen to and agree with him on every single issue. We should use discernment and wisdom for every different situation.

I just don't think the best solution (from a Christian perspective) is to keep dropping thousands of bombs and hope it "solves the problem". Look at what happened to Iraq after Bush attacked there, did it solve the problem of extremism or only intensify it?

What about Dr. King's words? "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind?"

 

[Wrangler]

Yet the Founders in terms of foreign policy, also seemed to stress isolationalism.

What are you talking about? Jefferson IS a founding father. And the fact remains that our first military action after the revolution was to engage Islamic Jihadi's. Hence the Marine song, "To the shores of Tripoli."

We acted militarily in reaction to Islamic Jihadi's interfering with our merchant fleet and costing up to 20% of the Federal Budget in bribes to free hostages, much like Hamas today. Ecclesiastes informs us there is a time for isolation and a time to stand up to Islamic barbarism. That's the Christian perspective!

I just don't think the best solution (from a Christian perspective) is to keep dropping thousands of bombs and hope it "solves the problem". Look at what happened to Iraq after Bush attacked there, did it solve the problem of extremism or only intensify it?

Violence always solves problems and it certainly solved the problem in Iraq as they are not threatening Kuwait or building WMD. Just ask any momma bear when anyone gets between her and her cubs. Violences solves problems.

If not for force, Europe would have been Islamic long ago and the world would still be in an age of Islamic Dark Age.

Regarding a better solution, none exists in practice. In an episode of House, his antagonist explained the whole point of the law (and we can use military and police as a substitute here), is that it is there when all other solutions fail. He admitted it is inefficient and severe but also necessary when other solutions fail.

Even our Lord, when he returns will invoke no other solution than to use force to place all his enemies under his feet. Again, that is the Christian perspective!

 

[Truthnightmare]

Yet the Founders in terms of foreign policy, also seemed to stress isolationalism. I generally respect and admire Ben Shapiro, yet I do NOT think we should blindly listen to and agree with him on every single issue. We should use discernment and wisdom for every different situation.

I just don't think the best solution (from a Christian perspective) is to keep dropping thousands of bombs and hope it "solves the problem". Look at what happened to Iraq after Bush attacked there, did it solve the problem of extremism or only intensify it?

What about Dr. King's words? "An eye for rnan eye leaves everyone blind?"

I generally respect and admire Ben Shapiro,

Why has he garnered your admiration?
The Jewish people as a whole will be its own Messiah. It will attain world dominion by the dissolution of other races, by the abolition of frontiers, the annihilation of monarchy, and by the establishment of a world republic in which the Jews will everywhere exercise the privilege of citizenship. In this new world order the Children of Israel will furnish all the leaders without encountering opposition. The Governments of the different peoples forming the world republic will fall without difficulty into the hands of the Jews. It will then be possible for the Jewish rulers to abolish private property, and everywhere to make use of the resources of the state. Thus will the promise of the Talmud be fulfilled, in which is said that when the Messianic time is come the Jews will have all the property of the whole world in their hands.

the Jewish) Baruch Levy, "Letter to Karl Marx," La Revue de Paris, p. 54, June 1, 1928.

This is also the position of Ben Shapiro.

 

[Wrangler]

Why has he garnered your admiration?

Because he is a deep and sincere thinker, motivated by truth and acting on sound principles. He same with Candace. Both are admirable people.