Does anything at all exist without God?

[GodsGrace]

When we pray, it is not that the outcome is not already written and therefore predestine. But rather, we simple have not experienced it yet.

But things are simpler than that in reality. It is more like God asked us to decide on what and who we want to be for all of eternity, then snapped His fingers, and "in the twinkling of an eye" all the greater details of the consequences of our freewill decision came to be and were written in eternity with God. Then, as a means of judgement, He read the account of our freewill like a last will in testament, or like presenting evidence at a trial (after the fact)...which He does by revelations, wherein we hear and live out all of the outcome of our will in a first person experience, that which was written.

So, when we pray, we are simply updating our freewill with in that snap decision, that in reality occurred before the foundation of the world.

Interesting.
He also knew we would choose Him.
But it WAS our choice.
I hope we agree on that...
Seems like it.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, that is just a misunderstanding of the term "evil." God did create "darkness", which by His definition, means "evil." Except that because He is higher than we, He is not a part of it. He is Light. But we as fallen beings living in darkness are evil by nature, because we are fallen, and therefore the darkness becomes us.

I said that there are different meanings for the word evil.
When I speak of it in terms of God, I mean those things that are bad that we have no control over.
Like, what causes a hurricane? See.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is where I am on the Word of God. Consider it as if He spoke [however God would do that] the Word only once before the foundation of the world of men and what He spoke is reflected as a result of how any man acts and reacts. Resultant curses occur and blessings occur, but God does not need to speak the Word as it is already in place to accomplish whatever the action or reaction requires.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

This sounds like present tense to me.
But it's not something I care to debate.
Who can know the ways of God?

 

[Miss Hepburn]

.... But we as fallen beings living in darkness are evil by nature,
because we are fallen, and therefore the darkness becomes us.

Is this how people think of themselves?
Here is my definition of 'me', (well, first there is no 'me! Lol)
I am an innocent and child-like goof ball daughter / child-soul of a King, that is adored by Him, my Dad. ☺
Like a ray from the Sun...I exist from Him always.. connected and never will be let go of...His Light is within me, behind my closed eyes ; closer than my own skin...
Darkness, fallen...? Ah, if anyone could feel the burn in my chest they would wonder where there is room inside for darkness, by His Grace.
Once His Light appears inside your inner vision, I think your idea of yourself changes a great deal...ha! ;]

Um, human aspects and God? Oh my gosh....sure His thoughts are not our thoughts...but, the human aspects He has shown me (not things I made up, and projected onto my idea of Him) are the most human....His kindness, compassion extraordinaire, humor, thoughtfulness, loving gift-giving, parental giant protection,
thoughtful warm appreciation, soft puppy-ness, burning heart in need of endless love...
are so like the human heart.
God is nothing if not pure feeeeeeelings.
I don't and would not make anything up about my Father.

(Sometimes I feel I must re-introduce myself to some people... I have Practiced His Divine Presence in stillness, sometimes for 6 hours a sitting for over 40 years...
I sit often until He personally comes to me...what I know about God is only because of these Divine Visitations...Tho a Spirit, His Divine Mind and Sacred Heart are so simple and pure beyond anything I feel worthy to have been shown...and have left me crying for months in pure awe and profound gratitude and humility.
I do not project my concepts onto Him, but know and understand His human aspects, which He has placed in us, His adored offspring...)

 

[GodsGrace]

@Miss Hepburn

Well, for what it's worth and for whomsoever cares to know...
We are, as Ms. Hepburn says, due to our belief in Jesus. And ONLY due to our belief in Jesus. The Son.
We are covered by Him in more than one way.
Mathew 22:1-4
Romans 13:14
Galatians 3:27

We could feel as holy as we want to. Maybe you're a saint, you know, one of those Catholic ones, but the rest of us, poor mortals that we be, have been born with a sin nature that will not go away. Except that now we know it's there and are more careful not to feed it.

I feel like a sinner, because I sin, in need of God every day.

Do You feel like you never sin?

I know some monks who live isolated from the world.
They grow their own food.
They pray 8 hours a day and some like to walk around without shoes.
I must say they don't feel as holy as you do.
So good for you. This is a good thing and no one is to take that joy away.

It's just that talking about it could make the rest of us feel not quite up to par.
Mathew 6:1-34

 

[bbyrd009]

Atom bombs are a misuse of creation

would imply a force outside God, seems to me. i guess it seems weird that God Who makes Everything, could make something apart from God, but these two concepts are separate i guess, and both pretty well supported

 

[GodsGrace]

would imply a force outside God, seems to me. i guess it seems weird that God Who makes Everything, could make something apart from God, but these two concepts are separate i guess, and both pretty well supported

What you mean?
Man made the atom bomb...??
Did he not?

A misuse of creation, as @aspen said.

 

[bbyrd009]

What you mean?
Man made the atom bomb...??
Did he not?

A misuse of creation, as @aspen said.

well, i would agree but the point is that God did not make everything, and this supports that we are free agents who can operate outside the will of God, which for instance Scott might object to

 

[amadeus]

This sounds like present tense to me.
But it's not something I care to debate.
Who can know the ways of God?

But consider what @ScottA says with regard to time and God.

 

[GodsGrace]

well, i would agree but the point is that God did not make everything, and this supports that we are free agents who can operate outside the will of God, which for instance Scott might object to

@ScottA is right.
We CANNOT operate outside the will of God.
If God does not WILL something, it will not happen.
God PERMITS us to have free will and to have choice.
God is sovereign.

 

[GodsGrace]

But consider what @ScottA says with regard to time and God.

I don't know him enough to know what he believes.
Sometimes I agree with him and sometimes I don't.
Seems normal.
He says deep things sometimes and it's not easy to undersand him.
Actually, we might all be saying the same thing but using different words.

 

[amadeus]

I don't know him enough to know what he believes.
Sometimes I agree with him and sometimes I don't.
Seems normal.
He says deep things sometimes and it's not easy to undersand him.
Actually, we might all be saying the same thing but using different words.

I believe that according to @ScottA : Stated simply, you and I have a past, a present and a future, or at least our perceptions and thoughts and conclusions seem to tell us that we do. God on the other hand is on the outside of our realm of timed perceptions looking in at us. [although He can and does enter into this realm for His purposes in accord with His plan].

You said that what I said in post #57 "sounded like present tense". My point, which I believe goes along with Scott, is that to God there are no tenses since tenses refer to time. Time was established by God for men. We, while are IN this world, even if we are not OF this world, frequently have to consider and deal with time. There may really be no tenses, but to us in our carnal way of thinking that is nearly inconceivable. To us there is yesterday and today and tomorrow. Our languages necessarily take this into account in using tenses. Even the written scripture uses them because although inspired by God it is written by men to men.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Heb 13:8

To God looking in at us He sees all three tenses as one.

So when God initially spoke [whatever "spoke" means when say that He did it] it was a timeless thing that applied to anyone yesterday, today or tomorrow. The expression of Jesus "before Abraham was I am" [John 8:58] may be better understood when we look at it as Scott tries to do. Communicating it using a languages of tenses can be difficult.

 

[bbyrd009]

@ScottA is right.
We CANNOT operate outside the will of God.

actually, God cannot operate in creation without human permission, and i could provide several examples of this, "listen to them and give them a king," "you got polygamy because you demanded it," on and on.

So, there are equivocal perspectives there too, although i cannot deny your assertion from another perspective, yes

 

[bbyrd009]

only the one i just stated seems to me to be the much more operative, as pertains to our pov at least.

i strongly dislike this "you have no responsibility for your future at all, God has already completed Creation outside of time, in His mind already" kick, we are promised that we will reap what we sow, and yes certainly all things work together for good, but that does not free anyone to pursue evil without consequences. Judgement implies choices, and responsibility, imo

 

[bbyrd009]

God on the other hand is on the outside of our realm of timed perceptions looking in at us.

fabulous, but irrelevant, imo

 

[ScottA]

I believe that according to @ScottA : Stated simply, you and I have a past, a present and a future, or at least our perceptions and thoughts and conclusions seem to tell us that we do. God on the other hand is on the outside of our realm of timed perceptions looking in at us. [although He can and does enter into this realm for His purposes in accord with His plan].

You said that what I said in post #57 "sounded like present tense". My point, which I believe goes along with Scott, is that to God there are no tenses since tenses refer to time. Time was established by God for men. We, while are IN this world, even if we are not OF this world, frequently have to consider and deal with time. There may really be no tenses, but to us in our carnal way of thinking that is nearly inconceivable. To us there is yesterday and today and tomorrow. Our languages necessarily take this into account in using tenses. Even the written scripture uses them because although inspired by God it is written by men to men.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Heb 13:8

To God looking in at us He sees all three tenses as one.

So when God initially spoke [whatever "spoke" means when say that He did it] it was a timeless thing that applied to anyone yesterday, today or tomorrow. The expression of Jesus "before Abraham was I am" [John 8:58] may be better understood when we look at it as Scott tries to do. Communicating it using a languages of tenses can be difficult.

Hahaha! I think that description qualifies you...not for a purple heart, but for a psychedelic heart...meaning, you are just about as crazy as me

 

[amadeus]

Hahaha! I think that description qualifies you...not for a purple heart, but for a psychedelic heart...meaning, you are just about as crazy as me

Yes, according to some crazy is the word. The problem may not even be whether it is true or not, but rather, how hard we may step on someone else's toes. Methinks some people have very tender feet.

When it comes to the truth [God's as opposed to man's] every believer should be interested in it. I am glad that final judgment belongs to someone who can handle it fairly. I certainly could not.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that according to @ScottA : Stated simply, you and I have a past, a present and a future, or at least our perceptions and thoughts and conclusions seem to tell us that we do. God on the other hand is on the outside of our realm of timed perceptions looking in at us. [although He can and does enter into this realm for His purposes in accord with His plan].

You said that what I said in post #57 "sounded like present tense". My point, which I believe goes along with Scott, is that to God there are no tenses since tenses refer to time. Time was established by God for men. We, while are IN this world, even if we are not OF this world, frequently have to consider and deal with time. There may really be no tenses, but to us in our carnal way of thinking that is nearly inconceivable. To us there is yesterday and today and tomorrow. Our languages necessarily take this into account in using tenses. Even the written scripture uses them because although inspired by God it is written by men to men.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Heb 13:8

To God looking in at us He sees all three tenses as one.

So when God initially spoke [whatever "spoke" means when say that He did it] it was a timeless thing that applied to anyone yesterday, today or tomorrow. The expression of Jesus "before Abraham was I am" [John 8:58] may be better understood when we look at it as Scott tries to do. Communicating it using a languages of tenses can be difficult.

@ScottA is right.

 

[GodsGrace]

actually, God cannot operate in creation without human permission, and i could provide several examples of this, "listen to them and give them a king," "you got polygamy because you demanded it," on and on.

So, there are equivocal perspectives there too, although i cannot deny your assertion from another perspective, yes

Yeah.
Also Romans 1:24
God is sovereign.
HIS WILL reigns.
But we have free will.

When you've figured it out, let us know.
I've grown to understand this in my own way.

 

[bbyrd009]

ah, i'm fairly done myself, and comfortable in either perspective; only the one where i am sovereign is the one where i must function, regardless of whether it is actually God changing His mind through me or not, which i doubt anyway.

When i lose my ego entirely, is there still a part that is "me?"