Does anything at all exist without God?

[ScottA]

Are you saying God allows evil so we could love the good?
( Or appreciate it? )

Not exactly. But kind of.

He has rather "revealed" good in contrast, as an act of distinction, making "perfect" that which was already "very good" in the beginning.

In doing so, what went on in the darkness was condemned by Him, to be eliminated in the judgement. As light eliminates darkness, good eliminates evil.

 

[Helen]

Now this is kind of what @"ByGrace" said about a diamond and a dark background.

Your post above is a bit too deep for me and I have to think about it some.

And I am not surprised...wow you keep late hours /early mornings!! x

 

[Helen]

In doing so, what went on in the darkness was condemned by Him, to be eliminated in the judgement. As light eliminates darkness, good eliminates evil.

Would you say that is the "workers together with Christ"..partnership in Fathers business? Or no?

 

[ScottA]

Would you say that is the "workers together with Christ"..partnership in Fathers business? Or no?

Absolutely!

"And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one" John 17:22

 

[Miss Hepburn]

So far so good; a fine discussion, no derailing happening ! ☺ I have no personal agenda here, people can think what they want, btw...I happen to also be aware
of Higgs Boson, the God Particle, electromag microscope photos of
most everything down to the atoms of nickel and brass making up the Liberty Bell [explaining why it cracked...on PBS, ha, what an eye opener], so that, I know
'Nothing Is What it Seems..or Appearances are deceptive'!

What appears as evil has some purpose in God's Cosmic or Divine Perspective.
Does evil exist? Seems to. We think cancer is evil, yet subconsciousily the person MAY
have created it themselves ...ha, then when faced with the reality of cancer was consciously hating it.

Who is to say what is true evil. Not me.
I believe God is One...all is sort of, but maybe not exactly, "within Him"..an extension of Him Who is ever expanding and discovering? Another way to put it?

If He is The Whole...The One...no duality, not a "two"....is He like a little boy in a garden discovering with innocent curiosity holding a magnifying
glass while burning up a bug? I'm not saying this is so, but it helps the mind possibly alter it's definition of what is evil.

I didn't intend this to be a thread on "evil"...but, that was inevitble and fine....in my head I was thinking of sub sub subatomic particles and the "empty space" inside them
that make up what we call matter...because in my mind..there is no matter.

Nothing would exist if not for God; He is the glue, the force holding all together, in other words...
the invisible thoughts of a dog or mine.
Nothing is what it appears to be...to the human's woefully
limited senses....so, therefore, how could anyone make a true assessment
of anything without Divine Revelation...when the Holy Spirit reveals Divine Insight to a person.
Any puny logic or intellect from anyone is just speculation, a concept, an opinion, and guessing, to me...and means little.

But, please continue! Seems most anything the intellect an come up
with is still vanity, doesn't it? HA!

 

[GodsGrace]

I was referring to Aspen's post:
...specifically "God is actively creating." Which is not accurate in one respect, which is how I believe he meant it. In other words, God "did" create, then wrote it out, then revealed it, "as it is written." This is a truth that is made clear in that one little phrase, from God.

So, my comment, was to make clarification...that the only thing "actively" going on was not the "creation", but is only the revelation of it...which we are now in the final hours of.

Ok.
I understand this better now.
But I also think that God is constantly creating either new things, or "creating" what is already here not in the sense of just making it right now, but that He SUSTAINS everything that is already created, and that is a type of creating. ?? Not sure.

 

[GodsGrace]

But...we have the mind of Christ...

This is like Paul saying "we will by no means proceed those who have fallen asleep." Which all depends on the context.

If we say that God is timeless and in that context we and those who have fallen asleep join Christ simultaneously, it is correct, which would seem to make Paul a fool or a liar. But if we say that Paul spoke to those who had not yet seen death and it is in that context that we do not proceed those who have fallen asleep, this is also correct, and Paul is right to say so, even though it would appear to contradict the timeless truth of God.

Speaking then, from the perspective of Christ whom has joined the Father, in whom we share an eternal context, and because we no longer live, but it is Christ who lives in us...it is correct to say that all that was created "was" created "before the foundation of the world", and this that we now see in revelation, is just that creation that "was" is just being "revealed" "as it is written." Likewise, if we say that it "is" written, therefore "this" is that time in which He writes it...this too is correct. But if we say, that because it "is" written, therefore it "is" now that God "is" creating things...this is not correct, because that would mean that it is not written, when God has said that it "is."

But I wouldn't trouble yourself about it. :)

Yes. I saw a "like" first and replied to the above.
I put some question marks at the end of my post
but the above answers it.
I could add then, that what we SEE has already been created and is being now seen, as it is written.
OK. Agreed.
But we do not know if God is STILL creating things we cannot see.
THIS we cannot know for sure, as I think I stated.

How about situations?
Or predestination?
If I pray about something, does God change what was already predestined?
I've always had a problem with this.
The bible says God cannot change His mind, but if prayer works, then He necessarily would HAVE TO change his mind.
??

 

[GodsGrace]

Not exactly. But kind of.

He has rather "revealed" good in contrast, as an act of distinction, making "perfect" that which was already "very good" in the beginning.

In doing so, what went on in the darkness was condemned by Him, to be eliminated in the judgement. As light eliminates darkness, good eliminates evil.

I agree with this. But this also means then that God did not CREATE evil, as I believe, but only ALLOWS it and for what reason, I don't see how we could ever be sure if the finest minds in Christiandom, from the beginning, could not come to this knowledge.

Augustine THOUGHT he had it figured out, but in his older and wiser age, he did say that it could not be known.

 

[GodsGrace]

So far so good; a fine discussion, no derailing happening ! ☺ I have no personal agenda here, people can think what they want, btw...I happen to also be aware
of Higgs Boson, the God Particle, electromag microscope photos of
most everything down to the atoms of nickel and brass making up the Liberty Bell [explaining why it cracked...on PBS, ha, what an eye opener], so that, I know
'Nothing Is What it Seems..or Appearances are deceptive'!

What appears as evil has some purpose in God's Cosmic or Divine Perspective.
Does evil exist? Seems to. We think cancer is evil, yet subconsciousily the person MAY
have created it themselves ...ha, then when faced with the reality of cancer was consciously hating it.

Who is to say what is true evil. Not me.
I believe God is One...all is sort of, but maybe not exactly, "within Him"..an extension of Him Who is ever expanding and discovering? Another way to put it?

If He is The Whole...The One...no duality, not a "two"....is He like a little boy in a garden discovering with innocent curiosity holding a magnifying
glass while burning up a bug? I'm not saying this is so, but it helps the mind possibly alter it's definition of what is evil.

I didn't intend this to be a thread on "evil"...but, that was inevitble and fine....in my head I was thinking of sub sub subatomic particles and the "empty space" inside them
that make up what we call matter...because in my mind..there is no matter.

Nothing would exist if not for God; He is the glue, the force holding all together, in other words...
the invisible thoughts of a dog or mine.
Nothing is what it appears to be...to the human's woefully
limited senses....so, therefore, how could anyone make a true assessment
of anything without Divine Revelation...when the Holy Spirit reveals Divine Insight to a person.
Any puny logic or intellect from anyone is just speculation, a concept, an opinion, and guessing, to me...and means little.

But, please continue! Seems most anything the intellect an come up
with is still vanity, doesn't it? HA!

God can't be like the little boy. May it never be!
Only a being really really intelligent could have created all we see by using the same ingredients. "Star Stuff" if you will.

As far as evil, there are different descriptions for evil.
Some understand it to be something people do. If I'm an evil person I'll lie about my neighbor to discredit him, or just for fun.
Some understand it to be the bad things that happen WITHOUT any help from us. This is my understanding of evil when we speak of it in terms of God allowing evil.

My last comment would be about our puny logic.
AMEN! I feel like we're the little ants who only SEE THEIR little part of the world. To them it's all there.

But we see so much more than they do.

And God sees everything.

 

[bbyrd009]

All things were made by God and without God, nothing was mafe. John 1. Even evil was created by God (Isa 45:7).

Can they exist without God? Well thwy can continue to exist without God for a time. But they cannot have ever existed unless the Lord created them.

i don't think it is correct to say that God made atom bombs though, what about you

 

[junobet]

NOT to derail, but I feel we have to stop saying God created evil, or chaos which is what is said in Isaiah 45:7.

If God CREATED evil, then God has an evil aspect.
Does He?
Or is He all-good?

Please answer.

Well, God created us. Doesn’t mean He’s got a human aspect, does it?

As for the question raised: The question of evil is one of the most difficult ones in theodicy and I can’t say I have a definite answer. But here’s an interesting article written by an atheist who interviewed several theologians, both Christian and from other religions, on the subject. Personally I find the answer of the last person interviewed to be the most elegant and plausible one. Christian theologian Keith Ward is on board with FHII on this one: God did create evil and still He Himself is perfect Goodness: Did God Create Evil? - Science and Religion Today

 

[bbyrd009]

nice

I tend to think God is actively creating our existence.

but we should at least contemplate that there is an equivocal doctrine that suggests God set us in motion with certain natural laws in place that would require Him to do nothing else whatsoever for His will to manifest, right. And that God actively doing something in our domain without any human requesting God's will would even go against Scripture.

not taking a position for either side here though, you get me i hope

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, God created us. Doesn’t mean He’s got a human aspect, does it?

As for the question raised: The question of evil is one of the most difficult ones in theodicy and I can’t say I have a definite answer. But here’s an interesting article written by an atheist who interviewed several theologians, both Christian and from other religions, on the subject. Personally I find the answer of the last person interviewed to be the most elegant and plausible one. Christian theologian Keith Ward is on board with FHII on this one: God did create evil and still He Himself is perfect Goodness: Did God Create Evil? - Science and Religion Today

NO theologian knows the answer to this one.
I don't, however, agree with anyone who says God has any amount of evil in Him.

God does not have a human aspect,
But we have some of God's aspects.

(not sure what this means)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes. I saw a "like" first and replied to the above.
I put some question marks at the end of my post
but the above answers it.
I could add then, that what we SEE has already been created and is being now seen, as it is written.
OK. Agreed.
But we do not know if God is STILL creating things we cannot see.
THIS we cannot know for sure, as I think I stated.

How about situations?
Or predestination?
If I pray about something, does God change what was already predestined?
I've always had a problem with this.
The bible says God cannot change His mind, but if prayer works, then He necessarily would HAVE TO change his mind.
??

GodsGrace, I have been following the discussion and wanted to post, but not sure what to contribute yet. This is addressing several points you brought up in multiple post.

I ask you: who created the darkness man is under? The blindness? There are only two minds: the mind of Christ, or the mind of man(corrupted by sin). This world, what you see clearly demonstrates what is man's (heart/mind) without God. Look into the darkest corners and you will see man's ugly truth when he proclaims his own goodness. You can't just blame mans actions though; take a look at the creation itself: the runt of the litter is pushed out to die by the others, the Lion stalks his prey and always picks off the weakest stragglers of a herd, the dominate control the pack. (Even in this man's sin is clearly seen). Everything about this world demonstrates sin and the perverseness of man apart from God. A fallen state. There is only: knowledge of Christ, or complete darkness. Keep in mind God created man. God created Satan. Where does all sin come from? Without the mind of Christ: all men are continually wicked. So, when God says: I create evil. He means it. Man is evil. And God manifests what is evil and hidden in darkness, bringing it to light.

Daniel 2:22 KJV
[22] He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

Job 34:21-22
[21] For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings. [22] There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.

Luke 12:2-3
[2] For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. [3] Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

God separates light from darkness. But God doesn't just pluck "good" men out of the darkness because no man is "good". Jesus Christ blazed a trail of pure light in the darkness. What God takes out of the dark(us), He sets (us)in that light(Christ) and we become transparent. We must submit to that path of light and walk in it. By this, they know we are of God. So, I don't agree that evil's only purpose is to contrast good. It shows us man's true sinful nature apart from God and God has allowed it to be so. He wants us to wake up and see: this is NOT paradise.

The OT tells us clearly what God said He was going to do. The Saints knew it. They knew God would blind His own people and take the gospel to the gentiles. They rejoiced in God's will but at the same time lamented for God's people pleading "how long"? The OT tells what God is going to do. You shouldn't avoid what is offensive. Stare into it and ask Him to show you. From beginning to Revelation; God is at work on many levels, so many we have no idea or can know the magnitude of what He has written.

GodsGrace, please don't avoid asking God the difficult questions. Tell Him why you are offended. Nothing I say will do. He has to show you all the answers to your hard questions. There was a time where I was very offended by God. He says "Blessed is he that is not offended in me." You have to get to that place where you are no longer offended. And you can; He does it. He gives us the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ sees clearly and is contrary to everything about this world. We say we fulfil the commands of Love God and neighbor; yet we have no idea that we hardly know what real love is. He has changed my definition of love. He has changed my definition of good and evil. He has changed my definition of everything. The mind of Christ redefines.

Last point: darkness can also be living under a lie. Deception: A fantasy we have created. We tell ourselves whatever lies it takes to remain comfortable with our actions and surroundings. To walk in the light is to become transparent. (John 3:21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

I hope something here helps. Mostly, I just urge you to go to Him for the answers to where you can honestly know: "blessed is he that is not offended in me."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I would put down the PC as one thing on my list that can exist without God.

The computer needs man(created in God's image) to create it. Without man, the computer would not exist. Without God, man would not exist. So, the computer would not exist without man, who would no exist without God.

 

[bbyrd009]

If I pray about something, does God change what was already predestined?
I've always had a problem with this.
The bible says God cannot change His mind, but if prayer works, then He necessarily would HAVE TO change his mind.
??

zing!

 

[amadeus]

nice

but we should at least contemplate that there is an equivocal doctrine that suggests God set us in motion with certain natural laws in place that would require Him to do nothing else whatsoever for His will to manifest, right. And that God actively doing something in our domain without any human requesting God's will would even go against Scripture.

not taking a position for either side here though, you get me i hope

This is where I am on the Word of God. Consider it as if He spoke [however God would do that] the Word only once before the foundation of the world of men and what He spoke is reflected as a result of how any man acts and reacts. Resultant curses occur and blessings occur, but God does not need to speak the Word as it is already in place to accomplish whatever the action or reaction requires.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

 

[ScottA]

How about situations?
Or predestination?
If I pray about something, does God change what was already predestined?
I've always had a problem with this.
The bible says God cannot change His mind, but if prayer works, then He necessarily would HAVE TO change his mind.
??

When we pray, it is not that the outcome is not already written and therefore predestine. But rather, we simple have not experienced it yet.

But things are simpler than that in reality. It is more like God asked us to decide on what and who we want to be for all of eternity, then snapped His fingers, and "in the twinkling of an eye" all the greater details of the consequences of our freewill decision came to be and were written in eternity with God. Then, as a means of judgement, He read the account of our freewill like a last will in testament, or like presenting evidence at a trial (after the fact)...which He does by revelations, wherein we hear and live out all of the outcome of our will in a first person experience, that which was written.

So, when we pray, we are simply updating our freewill with in that snap decision, that in reality occurred before the foundation of the world.

 

[aspen]

i don't think it is correct to say that God made atom bombs though, what about you

Atom bombs are a misuse of creation

 

[ScottA]

I agree with this. But this also means then that God did not CREATE evil, as I believe, but only ALLOWS it and for what reason, I don't see how we could ever be sure if the finest minds in Christiandom, from the beginning, could not come to this knowledge.

Augustine THOUGHT he had it figured out, but in his older and wiser age, he did say that it could not be known.

No, that is just a misunderstanding of the term "evil." God did create "darkness", which by His definition, means "evil." Except that because He is higher than we, He is not a part of it. He is Light. But we as fallen beings living in darkness are evil by nature, because we are fallen, and therefore the darkness becomes us.