Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

[gpresdo]

Do you believe that one's forever-fate is sealed once they die?

Yes. Bible scriptures tells me so. I believe God's word.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes. Bible scriptures tells me so. I believe God's word.

As opposed to what?
What other kind of scriptures are there? - LOL

 

[face2face]

Is that really a fair criticism?
Try these on for size.

SteVe is the classic cherry picker!
@quietthinker thinks he has "special knowledge" of God, but as we are finding these two are as lost as anyone I've seen in this forum.

@Lizbeth

Lets tackle his fixation on the word "ALL"...which he loves to interpret literally.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 john 3:12
We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.

SteVen cannot discern between good and evil, and how God's Goodness and Severity deals with the wicked. You know, what is really sad Liz...have you ever heard Steven speak of the unforgiveable sin? I wonder how he reconciles the contradiction above? which as you know is not a cotradiction at all, but hey for him and his single mindedness he must be left with a false understanding of sin.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 12:19

19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord

What would happen to the man who leaves no room for God's wrath?
A man who promotes a false Gospel of a God who will not judge the wicked, even those who have crucified the Son again.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Titus 1:10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain

Liz, I seriously believe SteVen qualifies for the above and while he is not a member of the circumcision party a group who wanted to bring believers into law and bondage, Steven wants to sell a man-made grace and while it's not known what gain he wants from this...I perceive its more to do with ego and puffing himself up with all his deceitful questions...trying to lead people into a false sense of security.

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people,
and especially of those who believe.

He even highlighted the qualifier.

God is the Saviour (to everlasting life in Christ) of not just one race, or one family, but of all men. God offers salvation to the Gentiles along with the Jews, in short, to all men who will listen and come. And He is not willing that any should perish, though he knows many will. God's great power is evident in the gospel, "which is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe" (Rom 1:16). Christ is a redeemer for all men prospectively, but really only for those who truly believe in him. Steven is yet to work out the importance of this belief and the right beliefs to bring a person into a postion of being saved.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Again...belief is always the prerequisite.

SteVen's understanding is out of balance, his understanding of God is out of balance and his cherry picking verses is likewise.

He really should write his own Bible - like the Mormons he could start his own cult.

F2F

 

[gpresdo]

As opposed to what?
What other kind of scriptures are there? - LOL

LOL...study the history of Christianity.

 

[quietthinker]

SteVe is the classic cherry picker!
@quietthinker thinks he has "special knowledge" of God, but as we are finding these two are as lost as anyone I've seen in this forum.

@Lizbeth

Lets tackle his fixation on the word "ALL"...which he loves to interpret literally.

1 john 3:12
We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.

SteVen cannot discern between good and evil, and how God's Goodness and Severity deals with the wicked. You know, what is really sad Liz...have you ever heard Steven speak of the unforgiveable sin? I wonder how he reconciles the contradiction above? which as you know is not a cotradiction at all, but hey for him and his single mindedness he must be left with a false understanding of sin.



Romans 12:19

19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord

What would happen to the man who leaves no room for God's wrath?
A man who promotes a false Gospel of a God who will not judge the wicked, even those who have crucified the Son again.


Titus 1:10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain

Liz, I seriously believe SteVen qualifies for the above and while he is not a member of the circumcision party a group who wanted to bring believers into law and bondage, Steven wants to sell a man-made grace and while it's not known what gain he wants from this...I perceive its more to do with ego and puffing himself up with all his deceitful questions...trying to lead people into a false sense of security.


He even highlighted the qualifier.

God is the Saviour (to everlasting life in Christ) of not just one race, or one family, but of all men. God offers salvation to the Gentiles along with the Jews, in short, to all men who will listen and come. And He is not willing that any should perish, though he knows many will. God's great power is evident in the gospel, "which is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe" (Rom 1:16). Christ is a redeemer for all men prospectively, but really only for those who truly believe in him. Steven is yet to work out the importance of this belief and the right beliefs to bring a person into a postion of being saved.


Again...belief is always the prerequisite.

SteVen's understanding is out of balance, his understanding of God is out of balance and his cherry picking verses is likewise.

He really should write his own Bible - like the Mormons he could start his own cult.

F2F

Reading your replies here F2F, its not difficult to see your desire for control and the opinion you have of yourself as being an suitable advisor and an adequate judge.

 

[face2face]

Reading your replies here F2F, its not difficult to see your desire for control and the opinion you have of yourself as being an suitable advisor and an adequate judge.

Come inside quiet, it's warm, there's a ring of authority and a covering for sin. The choicest animal has been killed and joy is flowing through all in attendance. There is no hope for those who remain without this joyous celebration.
May Yahweh straighten you and bring you into the light of the knowledge which is in the face of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And don't mistaken control for confidence in the one hope of our calling....and if you find it quiet...do not neglect so high a calling and election, for some have to their own hurt.

God bless your searching...He can still be found.

F2F.

 

[Lizbeth]

That's debatable. Don't be so quick to judge. (lest ye be judged)
There is a semicolon after the word shame. Thus making the sentence, "wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

"Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

It's reserved for them. That means future by definition. If you have a table reserved for you in a restaurant, it means you aren't sitting at it yet and it is still waiting for you. In the meantime they are not fixed upon and anchored to the truth but are blowing with any wind of doctrine that suits their personal agendas (popularity, ambition, flesh-pleasing, people-pleasing, fame and money), hence they are wandering.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's reserved for them. That means future by definition. If you have a table reserved for you in a restaurant, it means you aren't sitting at it yet and it is still waiting for you. In the meantime they are not fixed upon and anchored to the truth but are blowing with any wind of doctrine that suits their personal agendas (popularity, ambition, flesh-pleasing, people-pleasing, fame and money), hence they are wandering.

All that to pretend you didn't agree with me? (and no Thumbs Up?) Okay...
What about that semicolon?

 

[Lizbeth]

SteVe is the classic cherry picker!
@quietthinker thinks he has "special knowledge" of God, but as we are finding these two are as lost as anyone I've seen in this forum.

@Lizbeth

Lets tackle his fixation on the word "ALL"...which he loves to interpret literally.

1 john 3:12
We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.

SteVen cannot discern between good and evil, and how God's Goodness and Severity deals with the wicked. You know, what is really sad Liz...have you ever heard Steven speak of the unforgiveable sin? I wonder how he reconciles the contradiction above? which as you know is not a cotradiction at all, but hey for him and his single mindedness he must be left with a false understanding of sin.



Romans 12:19

19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord

What would happen to the man who leaves no room for God's wrath?
A man who promotes a false Gospel of a God who will not judge the wicked, even those who have crucified the Son again.


Titus 1:10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain

Liz, I seriously believe SteVen qualifies for the above and while he is not a member of the circumcision party a group who wanted to bring believers into law and bondage, Steven wants to sell a man-made grace and while it's not known what gain he wants from this...I perceive its more to do with ego and puffing himself up with all his deceitful questions...trying to lead people into a false sense of security.


He even highlighted the qualifier.

God is the Saviour (to everlasting life in Christ) of not just one race, or one family, but of all men. God offers salvation to the Gentiles along with the Jews, in short, to all men who will listen and come. And He is not willing that any should perish, though he knows many will. God's great power is evident in the gospel, "which is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe" (Rom 1:16). Christ is a redeemer for all men prospectively, but really only for those who truly believe in him. Steven is yet to work out the importance of this belief and the right beliefs to bring a person into a postion of being saved.


Again...belief is always the prerequisite.

SteVen's understanding is out of balance, his understanding of God is out of balance and his cherry picking verses is likewise.

He really should write his own Bible - like the Mormons he could start his own cult.

F2F

Amen...all doesn't always mean literally all, but only all in a certain subset. It's dangerous to cherry-pick and form doctrines based on isolated verses. We need the whole counsel of God and if what we believe is true it will harmonize with all of scripture.

And just want to remind us all that Jesus said except you be born again you cannot enter or see the kingdom of God. That doesn't leave room for those who are not born of the spirit to be saved and enter the kingdom after death. "Ye MUST be born again" Jesus said. And it agrees with so many other scriptures. These universalists are deceived....trapped in a spiritual snare or stronghold.

 

[Lizbeth]

All that to pretend you didn't agree with me? (and no Thumbs Up?) Okay...
What about that semicolon?

It's just carrying on with the allegory. Stars in the darkness of space. And darkness is a further metaphor for the death/destruction that is reserved for them.

Look again, it's not complicated when you aren't trying to wrest the scriptures to fit a pet doctrine, but rather let the scripture speak to you:

Jde 1:12-13

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Eph 4:14

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

 

[St. SteVen]

It's dangerous to cherry-pick and form doctrines based on isolated verses.

Are you claiming that you never do that?

 

[St. SteVen]

We need the whole counsel of God and if what we believe is true it will harmonize with all of scripture.

Right. If you cherry-pick the verses you don't agree with out of your way.

 

[St. SteVen]

Look again, it's not complicated when you aren't trying to wrest the scriptures to fit a pet doctrine...

Are you claiming that you never do that?
Wouldn't deleting semicolons be "wresting the scriptures"?

 

[Lizbeth]

Are you claiming that you never do that?
Wouldn't deleting semicolons be "wresting the scriptures"?

I'm not making any claims about myself at all...the conversation isn't about me. What I see all over scripture are urgent warnings about judgment, destruction, people perishing....and that the only hope to avoid it is through faith in Christ and following Him. I don't see any hope for those who don't believe in Him in this life to come to faith after dying - only weeping and gnashing of teeth when they realize too late that they were wrong...as per the example of the rich man in the story about him and Lazarus and as per the allegory of Noah's flood and as per so many scrips! Many people will perish like the beasts/animals of the earth perish without inheriting immortality. The same is promised to the fallen angels....who scripture says will "die like men" (Ps. 82) even though they once walked in glory. There is no redemption or eternal life promised to Lucifer and the fallen angels...only that they will perish like men, like the beasts of the earth which are not inheritors of eternal life. Read Is. 14 and Ez. 28 - there is no redemption and eternal life promised there, only the opposite - death/destruction/judgment.

I'm not deleting the semicolon.....either you didn't you read the rest of my post or you're not comprehending.