Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

[face2face]

You are clearly not self aware of many of your assumptions.....so, what can I say except go in peace.
Ohhh, and while it's in my thoughts I thought I'd post this....

Fully cognisant quiet.

Do you know how many assumptions you have made in attaching that YouTube clip? You believe you understand God and Jesus more than others (non -UR believers) in this thread? Do you presume others think God is angry all the time and Jesus was raised up to save us from God - I mean, com'on quiet, you can't be that naive! Surely?

I'm not the one going in peace... it's sadly you leaving in confusion.

All the best with your UR theory!

F2F

 

[CadyandZoe]

A point not in dispute.

People die. They are judged. Some go to Heaven. Some go to Hell.

Those in Hell are rehabilitated and, eventually, also enter Heaven.

That's my question. So far I have not seen an argument in this thread, which defends the idea that those in hell are rehabilitated.

Eventually, ALL will willingly and happily go to Jesus.

Again, I don't see this anywhere in scripture. Instead, we hear, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your heart . . . " Where does the Bible teach remediation or rehabilitation in the afterlife? Where does it teach that a hardened heart will eventually become soft? I don't see that.

As I reflect on the entirety of the Bible, a clear and undeniable conclusion arises: a stubborn heart never yields, and a hard heart never becomes tender without the intervention of God's miraculous power. If He can soften hearts even in the depths of hell, then surely He can do so today. Therefore, I find no reason to believe humans require a different time or place for redemption. The present moment, right here and now, is the opportune time and place for it.

 

[face2face]

After all the teachings of the Bible that foxus on faith in Jesus Christ, the spreading of the gospel throughout the world _ to every nation and tribe_ you still don't get it?

Ronald, the Bible is useless to them; the Gospel has no power because every person, yes even the top 10 despot characters in the world will sit with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of God.

This is the God delusion on a whole new level, even though UR has been around since Origen!

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

After all the teachings of the Bible that foxus on faith in Jesus Christ, the spreading of the gospel throughout the world _ to every nation and tribe_ you still don't get it?

I thought the debate was over. I guess not.

That is the view of evangelical myopia. (nearsightedness)
The claim that everyone outside the fundamentalist tribe is lost.
Does this scripture describe evangelical salvation? (nope)

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Do you believe that Jesus will destroy them out of existence?

If you fell into a lake of fire, like a 2000+ degree lava lake, how long would it take to be completely consumed? Seconds ... a minute ... the end.

 

[Lizbeth]

Amazing to me that God's Elect are the most merciless people on the planet.
To whom much was given, they are quick to forget.

God's love and mercy was and is shown in Jesus Christ, that whosoever would believe in Him would not perish but have eternal life. There are only two fates that await mankind at the judgment. Either perish or have eternal life. They are opposites. The Lord has set before us only two choices, either choose life or choose death.

You are deceived, plain and simple. The bible is everywhere giving us dire warnings of what awaits those who will not believe in the Son of God. Torment is certainly mentioned as being part of that, as the story of the rich man and Lazarus shows. For how long I don't know....there is that the spiritual realm exists outside the limits of time and some things that are written might be written from God's perspective outside of time, and if so, that is a hard concept for we in our finiteness to grasp.

I think it was you who made a comment about tribalism in the church. Anyone who doesn't understand/experience the fellowship that believers have with one another in Christ and what our relationship with the world should be, makes me question whether they are even born again. They should be preaching the word of God rather than accusing the brethren and making things up according to their own wishful thinking:

2Co 6:14-18

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


Jas 4:4-5

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?


Act 2:42

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

1Co 1:9

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Co 10:20

But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

1Jo 1:3

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:6-7

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[St. SteVen]

I displayed a serious photo of Buddhists worshipping Buddha ... who made their choice.

Made their choice? Seriously?
No different than you or I, who were schooled in the religion of the country we were born in.
If you had been born in Malaysia, where would you be now?

I hope God reveals to you someday what His judgment really entails. You should make a special request to attend the Great White Throne Judgment and sit through a few million cases.

Didn't you get your RSVP invitation? Yikes!
I thought everyone was invited.
Maybe there is a NO EVANGELICALS ALLOWED sign by the door? ??? - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

If you fell into a lake of fire, like a 2000+ degree lava lake, how long would it take to be completely consumed? Seconds ... a minute ... the end.

Why would the Great Physician do that when we are COMPLETELY salvageable?
If children misbehave, do we toss them in a volcano?

 

[Patrick1966]

If you fell into a lake of fire, like a 2000+ degree lava lake, how long would it take to be completely consumed? Seconds ... a minute ... the end.

Your theology is unbiblical.

 

[Patrick1966]

@St. SteVen

Our brothers and sisters have been blinded into believing the Satanic lie that Jesus is a sadist. No amount of scriptures or logic can open their eyes. Only the Holy Spirit can do that for them.

 

[St. SteVen]

For how long I don't know....there is that the spiritual realm exists outside the limits of time and some things that are written might be written from God's perspective outside of time, and if so, that is a hard concept for we in our finiteness to grasp.

Yes, the biblical record is in conflict.
In one place is says all alone in outer darkness, or blackest darkness;
in another place it is a Lake of Fire with everyone in the pool, which can't be blackest darkness.

I think it was you who made a comment about tribalism in the church. Anyone who doesn't understand/experience the fellowship that believers have with one another in Christ and what our relationship with the world should be, makes me question whether they are even born again. They should be preaching the word of God rather than accusing the brethren and making things up according to their own wishful thinking:

What our relationship with the world should be? Do you infer hatred of those outside the tribe?
To hate those you evangelize, unless they join, then you love them? Tribalism. Us versus Them.

 

[face2face]

@St. SteVen

Our brothers and sisters have been blinded into believing the Satanic lie that Jesus is a sadist. No amount of scriptures or logic can open their eyes. Only the Holy Spirit can do that for them.

Patrick, from over here it looks like the blind is leading the blind who is leading the blind. You can make false claims on how other people view Jesus but ultimately what matters is how he views them. Rev 19:15 - its sharp Patrick and you should be mindful its two edged and cuts both ways. If you looked up the verse its no doubt a hard saying for you and your UR brothers. You should provide some insights into that verse, its context and how this will play out in the end days.
F2F

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

If you had been born in Malaysia, where would you be now

In Malaysia. If I was one of the Lord's sheep, I would hear His voice when he called me to that divine appointment. The gospel would get to me, I would attend a church and then get saved.

Didn't you get your RSVP invitation?

Don't want one, I already believe that God's final judgment for the ungodly is the Lake Of Fire. You don't. You are in denial of all the numerous scriptures that speak of it. I think Jesus spoke of hell ( the Gehenna) more than he did heaven.
The Rich Man in Hades, (Luke 16:23),
of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43),
where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna”, where both body and soul will be destroyed (Matt. 10:28)
As in the beginning of our conversation, I gave you a long list of scriptures (post # 330), that you either deny or distort ... you just don't get the justice of God.

Why would the Great Physician do that when we are COMPLETELY salvageable?
If children misbehave, do we toss them in a volcano?

Whosoever believes ... God gives es us a choice to love. You can't force anyone to love you. Did you ever try that? That is why He had to offer life and love if we would only willingly say yes and receive it. The gospel goes out not forcefully. It's message is an invitation. We must seek God. THIS LIFE is about reconciliation with God through Christ. He draws all men to Himself, but many reject, resist, say no. They don't ask for forgiveness and so they don't receive it. Once you are dead, your fate is fixed.
We love our children and chastise them. God loves His children and chastised them. But we were not His children at one time. We were adopted. So not all are His children. There are children of Satan, who do his work and many are reprobates ( irredeemable).
The #1 purpose in life is reconciliation with God.
But before that happens we are to realize what good and evil is. This was His purpose for putting the tree in the Garden.
We need to know the difference, the consequences. Light and darkness. We need to choose Light once we realize we are in the darkness. Light is revealed to us IN THIS LIFE.
Patrick1966 and you think you'll be playing cards, having fun, shooting the breeze with Hitler, Mao Zedong, Jack the Ripper, Hannibal ... in heaven? I guess Satan will be there too? How nice, to think that God forgives all. So He'll just force His love and force all to love Him? Don't think so. Now we're done!

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, the biblical record is in conflict.
In one place is says all alone in outer darkness, or blackest darkness;
in another place it is a Lake of Fire with everyone in the pool, which can't be blackest darkness.

What our relationship with the world should be? Do you infer hatred of those outside the tribe?
To hate those you evangelize, unless they join, then you love them? Tribalism. Us versus Them.

The wages of sin is death......blackest darkness is a metaphor referring to the grave, ie, death. The second death that nobody can come back from. The "first death" we as believers are redeemed from, but there is no teaching in the bible about coming back from the second death or from being twice dead. The second death and lake of fire marks the destruction and end of the old order and all the evil therein, including sinful souls and devils and death and hell that exist in the old order, but will not exist in the new order:

2Pe 3:10-13

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:4-6

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end....

And I will answer your second question with this question.....Why do you infer from these things that we would hate and judge lost souls? This is all God's word, not mine or anybody's. Of course we are not to walk in a wrong spirit and attitude.....as long as it is still Day we are to walk in humility knowing there but for the grace of God go we, and offer the hope of the gospel to lost souls and walk in the love of God towards all....it is for the Lord to judge the world, and He will. If we love the lost we'll warn them with the words of God, when appropriate and led by the Spirit, that there is a day of judgment coming in hopes that they might be saved from it. The broad way leads to destruction.....only the narrow way leads to life and the bible says few will find it.

 

[Lizbeth]

You need a hiss at the end of your posts!

As others have pointed out he doesn't support anything he says with the word of God. His argument are only human emotional reasoning. Which doesn't hold water because as the word says God's thoughts and ways are higher than ours, not fleshly.

He doesn't seem to have "ears to hear" the word of God either.

Well, all I can say is God bless all who are contending for the truth on this thread.

 

[St. SteVen]

Now we're done!

Is that a promise?
Will you stop arguing with Patrick and I on this topic going forward?

 

[St. SteVen]

......blackest darkness is a metaphor referring to the grave, ie, death.

Wandering stars. Doesn't sound like the grave. (Jude 1:13)

 

[St. SteVen]

As others have pointed out he doesn't support anything he says with the word of God. His argument are only human emotional reasoning. Which doesn't hold water because as the word says God's thoughts and ways are higher than ours, not fleshly.

He doesn't seem to have "ears to hear" the word of God either.

Well, all I can say is God bless all who are contending for the truth on this thread.

Is that really a fair criticism?
Try these on for size.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people,
and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Lizbeth]

Wandering stars. Doesn't sound like the grave. (Jude 1:13)

I'm not at all surprised you aren't rightly dividing the scripture. Wandering stars refers to their behaviour now in this life, and blackest darkness refers to the judgment they will reap in future on the day of judgment. Look carefully:

Jde 1:10-13

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm not at all surprised you aren't rightly dividing the scripture. Wandering stars refers to their behaviour now in this life, and blackest darkness refers to the judgment they will reap in future on the day of judgment. Look carefully:

That's debatable. Don't be so quick to judge. (lest ye be judged)
There is a semicolon after the word shame. Thus making the sentence, "wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

"Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."