Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

[St. SteVen]

Thankfully for all his mercies are new every morning.

AMEN to that!

Not possible with a forever burning hell.
Just sayin'.

 

[Lambano]

@Lambano
Hopefully you knew that was a parody of the typical attitude of church folk. (tribalism)

Like any good parody, it has a modicum of truth in it. Haven't you seen Jesus's people with the "you're going to Hell and I'm glad!" attitude out in the world and around here?

 

[St. SteVen]

Like any good parody, it has a modicum of truth in it. Haven't you seen Jesus's people with the "you're going to Hell and I'm glad!" attitude out in the world and around here?

ABSOLUTELY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LYRICS Us and Them And after all we're only ordinary men Me, and you God only knows it's not what we would choose to do Forward he cried from the rear and the front rank died And the General sat, as the lines on the map moved from side to side Black and Blue And who knows which is which and who is who Up and Down And in the end it's only round and round and round Haven't you heard it's a battle of words the poster bearer cried Listen son, said the man with the gun There's room for you inside "Well I mean, they're gonna kill ya, so like, if you give 'em a quick sh...short, sharp shock, they don't do it again. Dig it? I mean he got off light, 'cause I coulda given 'I'm a thrashin' but I only hit him once. It's only the difference between right and wrong innit? I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh?" Down and Out It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about With, without And who'll deny that's what the fightings all about Get out of the way, it's a busy day And I've got things on my mind For want of the price of tea and a slice The old man died

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

View attachment 35861

 

[Patrick1966]

View attachment 35867

Is Jesus going to torture them forever too?

 

[St. SteVen]

Imagined conversation between Jesus and a distraught mother in heaven. (parody)

Mother: Lord, I was remembering my child.
Jesus: Yes, I can see them now in torment.
Mother: When will it end?
Jesus: Hell is forever.
Mother: Is there no hope for my child?
Jesus: Sorry, no hope for those in hell.
Mother: Surely my child has been punished enough by now.
Jesus: No, unbelief is an eternal crime.
Mother: I would gladly trade places with my child.
Jesus: I couldn't do that to you.
Mother: Why can you do it to my child?
Jesus: They are my enemy.
Mother: Didn't you teach us to love our enemies?
Jesus: Hmm... you got me there.

 

[St. SteVen]

Continuing...

Mother: Dear Lord Jesus, can you at least send me back in time to when my child was a baby so that I can KILL her so that she can escape your endless torture?

Jesus: Unfortunately, you would both end up in hell.
Mother: Why? I don't understand.
Jesus: Well, you would be a murderer, and your child would not be a Christian.
Mother: You would send us both to hell?
Jesus: No. You would send yourselves there.
Mother: Didn't you create hell?
Jesus: Yes, but not for you.
Mother: Seriously?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Is Jesus going to torture them forever too?

You missed the part when I claimed I do not adhere to the traditional view of eternal Hell. Anionios means ages, lifetimes, generations, when applied to the temporal realm. Hades is temporal and so is the Lake of Fire, both part of earth that will be destroyed.

 

[St. SteVen]

View attachment 35867

Was there a point, or are you only being disruptive?
Stay on topic. please.
We already explained that we are promoting Christian Universalism, NOT Unitarian Universalism.

 

[St. SteVen]

You missed the part when I claimed I do not adhere to the traditional view of eternal Hell. Anionios means ages, lifetimes, generations, when applied to the temporal realm. Hades is temporal and so is the Lake of Fire, both part of earth that will be destroyed.

Tell us then, who will escape incineration?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Was there a point, or are you only being disruptive?
Stay on topic. please.
We already explained that we are promoting Christian Universalism, NOT Unitarian Universalism.

Patrick1966 mocked my comment, "they made their choice" with Steve Harvey chuckling. So instead adding more mockery I displayed a serious photo of Buddhists worshipping Buddha ... who made their choice.
I hope God reveals to you someday what His judgment really entails. You should make a special request to attend the Great White Throne Judgment and sit through a few million cases.

 

[Patrick1966]

You missed the part when I claimed I do not adhere to the traditional view of eternal Hell. Anionios means ages, lifetimes, generations, when applied to the temporal realm. Hades is temporal and so is the Lake of Fire, both part of earth that will be destroyed.

Do you believe that Jesus will destroy them out of existence?

 

[Patrick1966]

Patrick1966 mocked my comment, "they made their choice" with Steve Harvey chuckling. So instead adding more mockery I displayed a serious photo of Buddhists worshipping Buddha ... who made their choice.
I hope God reveals to you someday what His judgment really entails. You should make a special request to attend the Great White Throne Judgment and sit through a few million cases.

Your theology is incorrect and unbiblical. You'll figure it out when you see Adolf Hitler and Benjamin Netanyahu fishing together in Heaven.

 

[face2face]

The story has greater scope than just Jew and Gentile.

But sadly most Christians don't heed the lessons which were expected of the first audience.

It encompasses the gap between those who think they have it right over and above others. It also highlights the generosity of the Father to both not because of merit (what they deserved) but because of his affection.

I can see the twist you are trying to force on the record - it's again admirable, but pointless. God had favour on the repentent sinner and while the same favour could be enjoyed by the proud oldest son, God delights in those who acknowledge “My sin is ever before me” Psa 51:3

The warning is there, but for some reason who can't speak to it...as though you have something in the way!

The older brother is not only the Pharisee, the religious Jew but believers of every stripe, those who deem themselves in the fold, those who consider themselves as biblical and have 150 texts to prove their rightness, those who are sure others are heretics and make no bones telling them so.

Usually, the older brother is known by their fruits, or lack thereof. God desires fruits meek for repentance,which is what is being sought. If you want to judge those who "know their Bibles" and label them as Pharisaic, you would want to be sure you know their hearts and their understanding of God's truth. This is a different matter to the false teachings you and SteVe have been pushing. But from you above comment I discern truth is not important and what you hold is something beyond Scripture, as though you have had some personal revelation, which is no revelation at all. Often those who are proven as wrong, as you both have, will come out and misrepresent a Parable to push your own wheelbarrow so to speak.

Maybe confine your reading, studying and interpreting to the first audience and endeavour to apply the lesson the Master is teaching them!

Context is king!

The publicans and sinners were drawn near to Jesus to “hear him” as per Luke 15:1, as the Pharisees had “watched him” in Luke 14:1 4. Like the Oldest Son in the parable the Scribes and Pharisees “murmur” as Jesus mingles with the sinners in Luke 15:2.

Who was in a position of being saved?

The Pharisee & Saducee, or the Publicans and sinners?

Those that rejected the Lords teaching, or those who drew near to listen?

They resent the Fathers generosity to the profligate because he is obviously undeserving....while holding the view they are deserving because they are not unfaithful even studied and practiced diligently for 50 yrs.

The story knocks on our own front and back doors alarmingly loudly!

Disqualification is not done by God. To the shock horror of many it is done by ourselves

Correct, if you are speaking of those called...the Jews had the Law of God and all were capable of hearing and doing His Word, however many in various ages have rejected Him and suffered the consequenses. He will disqualify those who reject Him.

.....even while we sing the old song........yet the book of Revelation informs us God's people sing a new song. Yes, a new song! I wonder what that new song is if it is not that of giving God glory for his boundless generosity to the profligates of the World.

The Word of God is written in such a way as to insight questions - we read it within the confines of the story, but sometimes we are given that piece of information which you simply cannot ignore.

30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

Where in the story are we told the Father informs his oldest Son of these sinful activities?

– elder son was aware of his brothers grosser evils, which were not mentioned by his compassionate father

Read Ezek 33:14-16

14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

What did the Oldest brother do toward his younger brother whose sins had been forgiven and now lived for his Father? This contempt for the forgiven, if he remains in this state of envy and hatred, he cannot live!...and it's this judgement which is introduced in many of the Lords Parables and teachings, which for some reason you are unable to speak to.

Why is that?

You can ignore the warnings
You can pretend God will rescue everyone and save all
You can even make God out to be only Good, and remove His Severity (Justice)

But all said and done, there will be those forgiven and glorified, and those rejected and who will perish. (Jesus used the words "thrust out" of the Kingdom.

As Ezek 33 states - there are those who will not die and those who will live.

There is an irony in the Parable which still exists today....At the end can you see the Father's appeal to His oldest Son?

He gently remind's of his relationship. with his younger brother! Even to this day natural Israel still excludes the Gentiles from salvation See Isa 63:16 and compare with Isa 18-19

I'm waiting for the day when both brothers can be united in faith...though I know many severe and hurtful judgements must come first.

Enter the Word quiet...its gives you light.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

yo

But sadly most Christians don't heed the lessons which were expected of the first audience.

I can see the twist you are trying to force on the record - it's again admirable, but pointless. God had favour on the repentent sinner and while the same favour could be enjoyed by the proud oldest son, God delights in those who acknowledge “My sin is ever before me” Psa 51:3

The warning is there, but for some reason who can't speak to it...as though you have something in the way!


Usually, the older brother is known by their fruits, or lack thereof. God desires fruits meek for repentance,which is what is being sought. If you want to judge those who "know their Bibles" and label them as Pharisaic, you would want to be sure you know their hearts and their understanding of God's truth. This is a different matter to the false teachings you and SteVe have been pushing. But from you above comment I discern truth is not important and what you hold is something beyond Scripture, as though you have had some personal revelation, which is no revelation at all. Often those who are proven as wrong, as you both have, will come out and misrepresent a Parable to push your own wheelbarrow so to speak.

Maybe confine your reading, studying and interpreting to the first audience and endeavour to apply the lesson the Master is teaching them!

Context is king!

The publicans and sinners were drawn near to Jesus to “hear him” as per Luke 15:1, as the Pharisees had “watched him” in Luke 14:1 4. Like the Oldest Son in the parable the Scribes and Pharisees “murmur” as Jesus mingles with the sinners in Luke 15:2.

Who was in a position of being saved?

The Pharisee & Saducee, or the Publicans and sinners?

Those that rejected the Lords teaching, or those who drew near to listen?


Correct, if you are speaking of those called...the Jews had the Law of God and all were capable of hearing and doing His Word, however many in various ages have rejected Him and suffered the consequenses. He will disqualify those who reject Him.



The Word of God is written in such a way as to insight questions - we read it within the confines of the story, but sometimes we are given that piece of information which you simply cannot ignore.

30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

Where in the story are we told the Father informs his oldest Son of these sinful activities?

– elder son was aware of his brothers grosser evils, which were not mentioned by his compassionate father

Read Ezek 33:14-16

14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

What did the Oldest brother do toward his younger brother whose sins had been forgiven and now lived for his Father? This contempt for the forgiven, if he remains in this state of envy and hatred, he cannot live!...and it's this judgement which is introduced in many of the Lords Parables and teachings, which for some reason you are unable to speak to.

Why is that?

You can ignore the warnings
You can pretend God will rescue everyone and save all
You can even make God out to be only Good, and remove His Severity (Justice)

But all said and done, there will be those forgiven and glorified, and those rejected and who will perish. (Jesus used the words "thrust out" of the Kingdom.

As Ezek 33 states - there are those who will not die and those who will live.

There is an irony in the Parable which still exists today....At the end can you see the Father's appeal to His oldest Son?

He gently remind's of his relationship. with his younger brother! Even to this day natural Israel still excludes the Gentiles from salvation See Isa 63:16 and compare with Isa 18-19

I'm waiting for the day when both brothers can be united in faith...though I know many severe and hurtful judgements must come first.

Enter the Word quiet...its gives you light.

F2F

With respect F2f, you are clearly not hearing what I'm communicating. It appears your mind is made up as to what I believe; it comes through in your assumptions. Anyway, I'll leave you with your assumptions.

 

[face2face]

With respect F2f, you are clearly not hearing what I'm communicating. It appears your mind is made up as to what I believe; it comes through in your assumptions. Anyway, I'll leave you with your assumptions.

Easy out quiet! Each point of yours has been answered, so the "not hearing" plea carries no credibility, at all. What are you really saying? You tried to use the Lord’s parable to support your understanding of what? UR? Your truth?

Did you try to align those who stand for truth to be the older brother ??? Surely not! If I make certain judgements about those who hold error, am I the self entiltled older brother who holds contemp for God and his younger brother??? That is not the meaning or intent of the parable. The substance of the Parable is about repentance (coming to ones self) and falling under the mighty hand of God.

Did you choose the wrong Parable to prove your point?

F2F

 

[CadyandZoe]

It just occurred to me that those who have rejected Jesus still do have a choice in the afterlife.










Original Recipe, or Extra Crispy?

Hebrews 9:2-28
Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

 

[Patrick1966]

it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

A point not in dispute.

People die. They are judged. Some go to Heaven. Some go to Hell.

Those in Hell are rehabilitated and, eventually, also enter Heaven.

Do you know how I know this? Because God told us.

2 Samuel 14:14 YLT
14 for we do surely die, and [are] as water which is running down to the earth, which is not gathered, and God doth not accept a person, and hath devised DEVICES in that the outcast is not outcast by Him.

Do you notice the word "devices" is plural? That means more than one. God devised more than one way to bring people to him willingly. The first (and nice and easy way) to God and Heaven is faith through Christ. Another way, apparently, is through the Lake of Fire commonly referred to as "Hell".

Eventually, ALL will willingly and happily go to Jesus.

 

[quietthinker]

Easy out quiet! Each point of yours has been answered, so the "not hearing" plea carries no credibility, at all. What are you really saying? You tried to use the Lord’s parable to support your understanding of what? UR? Your truth?

Did you try to align those who stand for truth to be the older brother ??? Surely not! If I make certain judgements about those who hold error, am I the self entiltled older brother who holds contemp for God and his younger brother??? That is not the meaning or intent of the parable. The substance of the Parable is about repentance (coming to ones self) and falling under the mighty hand of God.

Did you choose the wrong Parable to prove your point?

F2F

You are clearly not self aware of many of your assumptions.....so, what can I say except go in peace.
Ohhh, and while it's in my thoughts I thought I'd post this....

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Tell us then, who will escape incineration?

After all the teachings of the Bible that foxus on faith in Jesus Christ, the spreading of the gospel throughout the world _ to every nation and tribe_ you still don't get it?