Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

[St. SteVen]

How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end?

Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism?

Let's discuss. Thanks.

 

[quietthinker]

We need to ask, what is the Wrath of God?....what is its nature and how are men affected?

 

[MatthewG]

Revelation is always a viable source of scripture to read and look at, in my opinion. From what i heard from my teacher is there are two people who he knows and talked to that they are unable to comperhend a loving God separating people in the end of life. That was how it was in the beginning. From my perspective this “Christian Univeraslism” is not something I agree with because of what Jesus teaches through out the narrative, and also the apostles. The lake fire and brimstone is said to be in front of the angels and the lamb. For some this is just a sadistic way God tortures “examines” people who desire to come into the Kingdom. While Satan and his angels and the false beast and the prophet are said to be in the lake of fire forever; those who take part are not. Do they come from the outside of the gate inside? If that is possible? Jesus said professed believers are said to come in but not properly clothed; and God himself comes and orders their hands and feet to be tied and throw out in the outer darkness. Its hard to get around these things, and the wrath of God was poured out on Jerusalem for them having killed his Son. While i dont believe this wrath deacibed abides on anyone today; there will be a price that will have to meet if they go through the lake of fire; and while other people may have their ideas or perhaps look at other people for answers its still always best to keep at the source, and i dont believe in eternal punishment but those who are judged without Christ will be given a spiritual body not so equipped to dwell in the light, and perhaps those in the city can go help those in the darkness.

I dont know for sure or really, all that is know is I trust the Lord and Savior; over what man may say or think I may need to believe; and if God is good, and God is light, and God is a consuming fire; those who go through that lake for an age if they decide to have all the bad evil parts erroded away from them until the only good % is left.

Thats my objection to the whole “Christian universalism” i do believe people come to christ in the end of life but it comes at a cost and some may stay out in the darkness for as long as they want, or perhaps those thrown out will go get the proper clothing through that fire.

God is good, and love and he has a purpose in which none perish. He allows people to choose; and he doesnt force… unless you believe in the doctrine of Calvinism. Then yes he is a God of force. I disagree.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

The Teaching on hell as a place of eternal conscious punishment, by Jesus Christ Himself; and the fact that Jesus is very clear that there are FEW who will enter by the Narrow Gate, renders "Universal Salvation", HERESY!

The Holy Bible is The Infallible, Inerrant Word of God, and has no errors or contradictions.

 

[gpresdo]

How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end?

Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism?

Let's discuss. Thanks.

Don"t be miss led...universalism is a false hood.

That is one of many ...new age religion...teachings that is not biblical.

 

[Patrick1966]

The Teaching on hell as a place of eternal conscious punishment, by Jesus Christ Himself; and the fact that Jesus is very clear that there are FEW who will enter by the Narrow Gate, renders "Universal Salvation", HERESY!

The Holy Bible is The Infallible, Inerrant Word of God, and has no errors or contradictions, which US will require that it does.

Yes, Jesus tortures people FOREVER and boy, do they deserve it! If I ask nicely, do you think Jesus would let me torture some of them? I sure hope so because I would love to watch Jesus, the master torturer, make them suffer!

 

[Patrick1966]

Don"t be miss led...universalism is a false hood.

That is one of many ...new age religion...teachings that is not biblical.

I've always envisioned that Jesus will make Hitler's death camps look like a leisurely day at the park by comparison. The Nazis could only torture them to death once each, but Jesus can torture them to death, raise them up and torture them again FOREVER and EVER!

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that Jesus will let some of us torture those bad people too! How about it? You in?

 

[Randy Kluth]

How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end?

Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism?

Let's discuss. Thanks.

For everyone to be saved, despite some completely rejecting a life lived in accord with God's word, is not justice. Salvation implies that someone has chosen to live in accord with God's word. So you cannot have someone saved who rejects a life lived in union with God.

 

[Patrick1966]

For everyone to be saved, despite some completely rejecting a life lived in accord with God's word, is not justice. Salvation implies that someone has chosen to live in accord with God's word. So you cannot have someone saved who rejects a life lived in union with God.

Do you believe that one's forever-fate is sealed once they die?

 

[MatthewG]

The demons asked Jesus, at the time.

“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

STRONGS NT 928: βασανίζω

βασανίζω: (imperfect ἐβασάνιζον); 1 aorist ἐβασανισα; passive (present βασανίζομαι); 1 aorist ἐβασανίσθην; 1 future βασανισθήσομαι; (βάσανος);
1. properly, to test (metals) by the touchstone.

2. to question by applying torture.

3. to torture (2 Macc. 7:13); hence,

4. universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment: τινα, Matthew 8:29; Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; 2 Peter 2:8; Revelation 11:10; passively, Matthew 8:6; Revelation 9:5; Revelation 20:10; of the pains of childbirth, Revelation 12:2 (cf. Anthol. 2, p. 205, Jacobs edition); with ἐν and the dative of the material in which one is tormented, Revelation 14:10.

5. Passive to be harassed, distressed; of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind, Mark 6:48; of a ship tossed by the waves, Matthew 14:24. (In Greek writings from Herodotus down. Often in O. T. Apocrypha.)

Cognate: 931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold). See 928 (basanízō).

[In the papyri, basanos also means, "touchstone," "test" (so P Oxy I. 58.25, ad 288).

931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. Sickness was often regarded as 'torture' " (WP, 1, 37).]

STRONGS NT 931: βάσανος

βάσανος, βασάνου, ἡ (Curtius, p. 439);
a. the touchstone (called also basanite, LatinlapisLydius), by which gold and other metals are tested.

b. the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.

c. torture, torment, acute pains: used of the pains of disease, Matthew 4:24; of the torments of the wicked after death, ἐν βασάνοις ὑπάρχειν, Luke 16:23 (Wis. 3:1; 4 Macc. 13:14); hence, ὁ τόπος τῆς βασάνου is used of Gehenna, Luke 16:28. (In Greek writings from (Theognis), Pindar down.)

I don't think torture that is from God is evil like mankind tortures really, @Patrick1966.

It's hard to accept, and people must make their own choice, I can't personally fight the fact that people today whom are baptized by Jesus who receive the holy spirit and fire, are in somewhat examined as well as they go through this life living for God.

I trust what Revelation says, and what the bible states about the things, that may be hard for others to accept and it make sense people would have a hard time with these things because it to them...

"It is not loving" But how can people judge God, and his methods? Which is for a purpose and for the good of those who come through the fire?

 

[quietthinker]

I've always envisioned that Jesus will make Hitler's death camps look like a leisurely day at the park by comparison. The Nazis could only torture them to death once each, but Jesus can torture them to death, raise them up and torture them again FOREVER and EVER!

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that Jesus will let some of us torture those bad people too! How about it? You in?



View attachment 35761

Who do you think has got your attention when horror is in your communication?

 

[face2face]

I've always envisioned that Jesus will make Hitler's death camps look like a leisurely day at the park by comparison. The Nazis could only torture them to death once each, but Jesus can torture them to death, raise them up and torture them again FOREVER and EVER!

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that Jesus will let some of us torture those bad people too! How about it? You in?



View attachment 35761

Possibly note the type of images to accompany your sarcasm.

 

[face2face]

The judgement on Korah, Dathan and Abiram is a great example of Mercy withheld. The account is in Numbers 16 and shows us even today the basis of terminating ones existence is divine justice. Their challenge to God for His appointment of Moses and Aaron, claiming that it was of the flesh and not of God could not gone any poorer for them. Consider how many times God showed the people it was through Aaron and Moses He communicated and dealt with them and yet they wanted to introduce a mob like rule for divine appointment. You could argue it was a form of communism rather than the dictatorial theocracy upon which the Kingdom of God was based.

Many more Christian rulers and their followers will find a similar end - might not be the opening of the earth and swallowing them whole, but severe judgments are coming to those who think they can make up their own rules! Even the Universalist might be in for a surprise.



No eternal torment just total cessation of life...the memory of them eventually will be forgotten.

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

The Holy Bible is The Infallible, Inerrant Word of God, and has no errors or contradictions

Do you mean an English translation, of which none agree? Same with interpretation.
Where did our Bible come from?

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

 

[St. SteVen]

The Teaching on hell as a place of eternal conscious punishment, by Jesus Christ Himself

Consider this.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[Patrick1966]

Who do you think has got your attention when horror is in your communication?

That's the theology of most Christians, that Jesus sends the bad people to Hell where they are made to suffer FOREVER. Do you deny this foundational belief?

 

[face2face]

It's interestng when man draws an image like the one in the previous post they need to add the flames even though the record only mentions the earth opening and closing upon them. Just like this OP, its on man to want to add to God's Word and rarely are they willing to accept what is truth. It's subtle small changes over time...the person who did that drawing did not consult the Word just like those who put wings on angels...man made doctrine, like UR.

 

[St. SteVen]

Don"t be miss led...universalism is a false hood.

That is one of many ...new age religion...teachings that is not biblical.

Not so. Origins are in the early church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[MatthewG]

That's the theology of most Christians, that Jesus sends the bad people to Hell where they are made to suffer FOREVER. Do you deny this foundational belief?

I do. No one goes to hell anymore. Its a false nomer due to Jesus and his victory, i also hate/ dislike christian culture. There is only the outside or to go in the inside of the Kingdom, faithless and faithful.

 

[Patrick1966]

No eternal torment just total cessation of life...

Revelation 14:11 says in part "...and they have no rest, day or night"

So, yes, according to many English translations and according to mainstream Christianity theology, Jesus causes the damned to suffer every moment forever and ever. Amen!