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Does God Exist

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by univac, Jul 9, 2008.

  1. Lunar

    Lunar New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega)
    How do we know they were not deceived? Well if 12 apostles were all deceived into believing that Jesus rose from the dead......well then if someone believes that then no one will ever help them.
    And if someone believes that all the preachers and martyrs of Islam were deceived then I suppose no one will ever be able to help them either.Sorry, A&O, but preaching and martyrdom isn't evidence of the truth of a religion. Every religion has its preachers and its martyrs, and they can't all be right.
     
  2. Alpha and Omega

    Alpha and Omega New Member

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    (Lunar;55595)
    And if someone believes that all the preachers and martyrs of Islam were deceived then I suppose no one will ever be able to help them either.Sorry, A&O, but preaching and martyrdom isn't evidence of the truth of a religion. Every religion has its preachers and its martyrs, and they can't all be right.
    hold on one second. Did Islam have someone like Jesus come into contact with them like he did with the apostles? Islam die for a god that never revealed himself. How can they be for certain that he is real? Jesus revealed himself to show that he is real. Is it really probable that all 12 imagined the resurrection. Is it possible that the 12 mens senses were so inadequate that they deceived themselves? Or is it more possible that 1 man (Mohammed) deceived billions (Islam)? You know this goes on this very day just take a glance at the abundance of religions in existence. There are many Christians that are deceived to this day. Actually I would say the vast majority is deceived. you don't think that these men have a little more credibility than most?
     
  3. Lunar

    Lunar New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega;55615)
    hold on one second. Did Islam have someone like Jesus come into contact with them like he did with the apostles? Islam die for a god that never revealed himself. How can they be for certain that he is real?
    You've never seen Jesus either, how can you be certain that he is real?Anyways, I will leave it to Truth_Teller to debate the finer points of Islam with you. However, Christianity is not the only religion in the world in which a deity has supposedly revealed himself to people. Hinduism also makes precisely such a claim - the events of the Bhagavad Gita, for example.(Alpha and Omega)
    Is it really probable that all 12 imagined the resurrection. Is it possible that the 12 mens senses were so inadequate that they deceived themselves?
    This is, of course, all under the assumption that the events described in the bible all transpired as recorded - an assumption which could only possibly be made by someone who was already a Christian, of course - but I hope you realize that even in the bible, nobody ever directly witnessed the resurrection. The most they saw was an empty tomb, and supposedly someone speaking on Jesus' behalf telling them that he had risen and Jesus' apostles weren't even present for that. So don't act as though the apostles would have had to have been "hallucinating" the resurrection. By the bible's own accord, they heard about it secondhand.(Alpha and Omega)
    Or is it more possible that 1 man (Mohammed) deceived billions (Islam)? You know this goes on this very day just take a glance at the abundance of religions in existence.
    I hope you're not seriously arguing that Christianity is the only religion in the world with multiple purported witnesses to it.(Alpha and Omega)
    you don't think that these men have a little more credibility than most?
    Nope, I don't.
     
  4. Truth_Teller

    Truth_Teller New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega;55615)
    hold on one second. Did Islam have someone like Jesus come into contact with them like he did with the apostles? Islam die for a god that never revealed himself.
    Muslims, on their side, claim that in reality God only revealed Himself to them through Qur´an.(Alpha and Omega;55615)
    How can they be for certain that he is real? Jesus revealed himself to show that he is real.
    How are you so sure that Jesus was "Real"? Only because his apostles claim that he performed miracles? I may tell you here that it´s recorded by many of Muhammad´s Campanions that even he performed miracles.As for "Martydom", well many more people gave up their lives for Muhammad than for Jesus.(Alpha and Omega;55615)
    Is it really probable that all 12 imagined the resurrection. Is it possible that the 12 mens senses were so inadequate that they deceived themselves?
    So what? Even Hindus claim that their gods did such miracles that many of the people of their time witnessed.(Alpha and Omega;55615)
    Or is it more possible that 1 man (Mohammed) deceived billions (Islam)?
    So you are stuck to the fact that one needs to perform miracles to win people for himself? But, does that prove that they are truthful ones?Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "Claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).So could it be said that Jesus was trying to fool people of Isreal by performing miracles but they were adamant to their belief of not believing in "Black Magic" and holding faith in One God which they have been ordered to in Ten Commandments ("You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME")?I´m sorry but your this "Martydom, Miracles" point doesn´t help the cause and neither does it explain anything.
     
  5. Alpha and Omega

    Alpha and Omega New Member

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    (Lunar;55630)
    You've never seen Jesus either, how can you be certain that he is real?
    Exactly, that is why I go on faith but the apostles needed faith but yet it was confirmed by the presents of Jesus himself.(Lunar;55630)
    but I hope you realize that even in the bible, nobody ever directly witnessed the resurrection. The most they saw was an empty tomb, and supposedly someone speaking on Jesus' behalf telling them that he had risen and Jesus' apostles weren't even present for that. So don't act as though the apostles would have had to have been "hallucinating" the resurrection. By the bible's own accord, they heard about it secondhand.
    O really?Luke 24:36-53John 20:24-31(Truth_Teller;55631)
    How are you so sure that Jesus was "Real"? Only because his apostles claim that he performed miracles? I may tell you here that it´s recorded by many of Muhammad´s Campanions that even he performed miracles.
    There are many reasons why I believe. However, I am not basing my beliefs on any miracles. However the greatest miracle of all the resurrection is quite compelling. Tell me if they did not witness the resurrection would they have died for their beliefs? Miracles "anyone" can do but not rising from the dead. (Truth_Teller;55631)
    As for "Martydom", well many more people gave up their lives for Muhammad than for Jesus.
    That really means little. I was not talking about quantity but the quality of the people. Let me explain again if I die for my religion it really means little to everyone else. However, since the apostles knew Jesus talked, walked, ate with him and witnessed the resurrection their deaths are a lot more convincing. Also, Muhammad did not claim to be god yet Jesus did.(Truth_Teller;55631)
    So you are stuck to the fact that one needs to perform miracles to win people for himself? But, does that prove that they are truthful ones?
    Does it I don't know to be honest. All I know that a Muslim dies for his cause it does not mean that he is lying he indeed believes or else he would not die he is not a lier. If a Christian does the same it does not make him a lier. The difference of course is the fact that the apostles died for what they believed is special because they knew God. Would they have died for Jesus if he did not rise from the dead? No of course not. (Truth_Teller;55631)
    Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "Claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).So could it be said that Jesus was trying to fool people of Isreal by performing miracles but they were adamant to their belief of not believing in "Black Magic" and holding faith in One God which they have been ordered to in Ten Commandments ("You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME")?I´m sorry but your this "Martydom, Miracles" point doesn´t help the cause and neither does it explain anything.
    Jesus = GodGod = Jesus
     
  6. Lunar

    Lunar New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega;55643)
    O really?Luke 24:36-53John 20:24-31
    My mistake. Curious, though, that that's not the way that Mark tells it.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...16;&version=31;Note that the most reliable, ancient manuscripts do not feature Mark 16:9-20 - the section in which the resurrected Jesus specifically reveals himself.Anyways, the point is moot. That the apostles count as specific witnesses to the resurrection is premised upon the accuracy of the bible as a historical document. Essentially, you need to believe that the bible is trustworthy to think that these apostles behaved in the way you claim. But only someone who is already a Christian would believe in the historical accuracy of the bible. It's really no different from the case with Islam that Truth_Teller described: God reveals himself through the Qu'ran in Islam, and through the bible in Christianity. You may say that the apostles are more concrete evidence because they knew God (or claimed to), but we only know about the apostles because of the bible, so it's not as though you've got a stronger case, nor do you have a stronger case than the adherents of Hindu, a tradition which also claims to have figures which had known deities.
     
  7. Truth_Teller

    Truth_Teller New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega;55643)
    There are many reasons why I believe. However, I am not basing my beliefs on any miracles. However the greatest miracle of all the resurrection is quite compelling. Tell me if they did not witness the resurrection would they have died for their beliefs? Miracles "anyone" can do but not rising from the dead.
    Now you are going to a comparison of which being the bigger miracle. If so then fine. Let me tell you now that Hindus claim that their 'God Krishna once swallowed the Sun'. I mean, miracles can perform many but this one seems more convincing to me. Should I now turn to Hinduism? Make no mistake here, even Hindus claim that there were many people to witness this miracle.(Alpha and Omega;55643)
    However, since the apostles knew Jesus talked, walked, ate with him and witnessed the resurrection their deaths are a lot more convincing.
    However, since Companions of Krishna also talked, walked, ate with him and witnessed the miracle of the Sun, their are very convincing to me as well. Should I accept Hinduism on this sole reason of a miracle?(Alpha and Omega;55643)
    Also, Muhammad did not claim to be god yet Jesus did.
    Does "The Claim" even matter? If yes then Krishna also was a claimant of Godhood. Would you now at least declare faith in Hinduism???By the way, to Muslims Jesus was just a Messenger of God who never claimed Godhood but uncle Paul invented this doctrine.As far as I know, Paul, one of the most important Apostles, was also a persecuter of early Christians. I wonder how such a person can be believed blind-foldedly.(Alpha and Omega;55643)
    The difference of course is the fact that the apostles died for what they believed is special because they knew God. Would they have died for Jesus if he did not rise from the dead? No of course not.
    Would Hindus have followed their religion if Companions of Krishna hadn´t witnessed the miracle of swallowing the Sun? - No, of course not! Don´t forget that people also died for Krishna.(Alpha and Omega;55643)
    Jesus = GodGod = Jesus
    God = Only One.Only One = God.^ The thing which not only Islam taught but also Judaism and The Father of Prophet as well, Abraham (peace be upon him).
     
  8. Alpha and Omega

    Alpha and Omega New Member

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    (Truth_Teller;55656)
    Now you are going to a comparison of which being the bigger miracle. If so then fine. Let me tell you now that Hindus claim that their 'God Krishna once swallowed the Sun'. I mean, miracles can perform many but this one seems more convincing to me. Should I now turn to Hinduism? Make no mistake here, even Hindus claim that there were many people to witness this miracle.However, since Companions of Krishna also talked, walked, ate with him and witnessed the miracle of the Sun, their are very convincing to me as well. Should I accept Hinduism on this sole reason of a miracle?
    Like I said I do not believe just because of miracles. If you want to accept Hinduism go right ahead but I'll let you in on a little secret the sun is still here (it's a secret shhhhh). (Truth_Teller;55656)
    By the way, to Muslims Jesus was just a Messenger of God who never claimed Godhood but uncle Paul invented this doctrine.As far as I know, Paul, one of the most important Apostles, was also a persecuter of early Christians. I wonder how such a person can be believed blind-foldedly.
    well you will have to back that up (persecutor) because I have never came across anything like that written about Paul. LOL invented doctrine let's just see how silly this sounds.....invent something and then go to the grave preaching it when you can live a peaceful life somewheres else. (Truth_Teller;55656)
    Would Hindus have followed their religion if Companions of Krishna hadn´t witnessed the miracle of swallowing the Sun? - No, of course not! Don´t forget that people also died for Krishna.
    Sun still exists my friend.(Truth_Teller;55656)
    God = Only One.Only One = God.^ The thing which not only Islam taught but also Judaism and The Father of Prophet as well, Abraham (peace be upon him).
    God = Jesus = Holy Spirit = one in the same
     
  9. Alpha and Omega

    Alpha and Omega New Member

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    (Lunar;55086)
    First and foremost, concrete empirical evidence of his existence.But, barring that, a more sufficient explanation of the problem of evil than the one that has been offered in this thread, as well as a proper explanation that accounts for the numerous holes and inconsistencies in the bible and its unfulfilled prophecies.
    How much faith does that take exactly? I suppose you would like something like the Bible claiming there would be an earthquake on January 10, 2009 in South Africa and then it happened right? If this is what you are looking for then I'll tell you it isn't there. See how much faith would that take exactly? None really. You think God is stupid and would put something like that in the Bible. God wants a perfect world and only wants the people that love and have faith in him. See Satan was created not to rebel against God that was his choice so what good would it do God if he made such a claim in the Bible and people would flock over to his side with little faith. What is to say that those people would not rebel against God too?
     
  10. Lunar

    Lunar New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega;55661)
    How much faith does that take exactly? I suppose you would like something like the Bible claiming there would be an earthquake on January 10, 2009 in South Africa and then it happened right?
    That would certainly do quite a bit to convince me, yes, though that's not the only possible thing that would do so.(Alpha and Omega)
    See how much faith would that take exactly? None really.
    You're right, that wouldn't take any faith. But I don't understand why faith is considered a virtue in the first place. It's not considered a virtue in any other aspect of our lives. You put forth an untested bridge schematic and say that you have faith that it will work...and then it collapses and hundreds die. Where was the virtue in that? So no, I really don't understand why a God would test our faith in the first place. Or for that matter, if it is a matter of faith instead of reason, how can you possibly hold a non-Christian's choice against them? When it comes to choosing your religion, if it is based purely on faith, then what is differentiating your choice from a blind guess?(Alpha and Omega)
    God wants a perfect world and only wants the people that love and have faith in him.
    Well, I can only love things I believe in. I love my family, I love my friends, I love my boyfriend, I love my dog. If God convinced me of his existence, I might love him too.(Alpha and Omega)
    What is to say that those people would not rebel against God too?
    I don't see what "belief in spite of a lack of evidence" has to do with "propensity towards rebellion." These two are not correlated in my mind.
     
  11. Alpha and Omega

    Alpha and Omega New Member

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    (Lunar;55666)
    You're right, that wouldn't take any faith. But I don't understand why faith is considered a virtue in the first place. It's not considered a virtue in any other aspect of our lives.
    Well faith is important because it really is the only way for us to know God. In the present day anyway. However we do have faith in everyday aspects of our lives. You trust your partner not to cheat on you right? Just like my boss has faith in me that the work will get done. Just like any boss would have faith in their employees. Every time you fly or drive a car you have faith that it won't break down or fall apart right? I would say faith is essential for us to live day to day.(Lunar;55666)
    You put forth an untested bridge schematic and say that you have faith that it will work...and then it collapses and hundreds die. Where was the virtue in that?
    I am not sure where you are headed with this but bare with me here.I suppose you are blaming hundreds thousands or even millions of deaths on religion. Which I would agree with you 100 %. Religion is one of the worst if not the worst institution this world has ever seen. It's not going away either and it has real power in this corrupt world. However, a mistake that is made very frequently is that God and religion are one in the same. Which is not true at all. God is not a religion he is God. The fact that religion is about God means very little. You cannot blame God for what people have done on this earth it just isn't a fair accusation.(Lunar;55666)
    So no, I really don't understand why a God would test our faith in the first place. Or for that matter, if it is a matter of faith instead of reason, how can you possibly hold a non-Christian's choice against them? When it comes to choosing your religion, if it is based purely on faith, then what is differentiating your choice from a blind guess?
    To differentiate ones choice from a blind guess the only thing you could do is research. Take me for example I used to be Catholic and I went to church every Sunday. There were many things that bugged me about the religion but I just never really had the courage to ask. Even to this day when I try and explain to people (person to person) I get really nervous for some unknown reason. I was born into a Catholic family but something was not right. One major thing that I did not agree with was we were building a new church in my area and the priest would always and I mean always talk about money. He would say "I'm going to take your money ha ha ha" literally like this. I always asked myself why the hell does he need it when the Catholic church is sitting upon billions and billions themselves? If you were God how would you do it then? just curious.
     
  12. Lunar

    Lunar New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega;55694)
    Well faith is important because it really is the only way for us to know God. In the present day anyway. However we do have faith in everyday aspects of our lives. You trust your partner not to cheat on you right? Just like my boss has faith in me that the work will get done.
    Faith is not the same thing as trust. Trust is something you earn, something you come to hold in someone else because of their past actions. I trust my partner not to cheat because he has never cheated on me before, because all his actions indicate that he loves me and me alone, and because our conversation reveals that he understands the importance of commitment. Just as I am sure that your boss trusts that you will get your work done because you have exhibited to him in the past that you are a hard worker (and, before he saw that, because of your resume - clearly, it is not purely a matter of faith, because no employer would accept and trust in an applicant without a resume, simply as a matter of faith!)The examples of flying and driving in a car are similar. If no one had ever driven a car or flown in a plane before, then I definitely wouldn't have faith that it wouldn't break down. But I know that people have driven cars billions of times before. What this reveals to us is that it is not faith that is the virtue in these instances - it's induction. God, however, does not have a strong inductive case going for him.(Alpha and Omega)
    I suppose you are blaming hundreds thousands or even millions of deaths on religion.
    That actually isn't what I was implying (though that's a good point too). All I was saying is that it seems as though we have selectively identified faith as a virtue in the realm of religion, whereas everywhere else (like in the bridge example) faith is a negative.(Alpha and Omega)
    Which I would agree with you 100 %. Religion is one of the worst if not the worst institution this world has ever seen. It's not going away either and it has real power in this corrupt world.
    Well, some religious institutions are very corrupt. However, even as an atheist I can identify that religious institutions have done a lot of good in this world. I don't agree with their tenants, but when a Christian missionary goes to do relief work in a third-world nation, or when a Buddhist monk peacefully protests oppression, I think this is a beautiful thing. So let's not demonize them too much. Churches may bring out the worst in some people, and I may not agree with their doctrines, but they are also a catalyst for a lot of good.But I digress.(Alpha and Omega)
    To differentiate ones choice from a blind guess the only thing you could do is research. Take me for example I used to be Catholic and I went to church every Sunday. There were many things that bugged me about the religion but I just never really had the courage to ask. Even to this day when I try and explain to people (person to person) I get really nervous for some unknown reason. I was born into a Catholic family but something was not right. One major thing that I did not agree with was we were building a new church in my area and the priest would always and I mean always talk about money. He would say "I'm going to take your money ha ha ha" literally like this. I always asked myself why the hell does he need it when the Catholic church is sitting upon billions and billions themselves?
    That's you using reason, though, not faith. And I agree with you that you can use reason to show that a lot of religions are either false or horribly corrupt. Scientology, for example, since the government has actually found correspondence letters from L. Ron Hubbard in which he specifically detailed how he was going to turn his ideas into a religion for the sake of profit. You can confront that evidence with the most elementary reason that and think "You know, Scientology is probably bogus." Your case with the Catholic Church is another good example.With Christianity, there are so many different interpretations that I cannot possibly prove all of them false. I can prove that some of them must have the wrong idea (young-earth creationists, for example), but disproving claims about the supernatural is a tricky business. That being said, no interpretation of Christianity has ever offered sufficient proof of its truth.(Alpha and Omega)
    If you were God how would you do it then? just curious.
    Hmm, interesting question.I don't think I'd concern myself with material creation in the first place. It seems completely unnecessary for an omnipotent being. And if I did create something, I don't think I'd give everyone free will - well, not unless they were much nicer people than we are, anyway. But assuming they did have free will? Yes, I'd reveal myself unequivocally to everyone. I think that's the only just thing to do. I'm sure you disagree with atheists, but they are clearly not all insane or delusional - I consider the very fact that God's existence could be a point of contention to be problematic, especially when an eternity in hell is at stake (though I think I'd do away with that, too.)So, I don't think I'd even bother with a matter of eternal judgment. I'd make sure everyone knew exactly what the deal was with this God, so that the decision was a no-brainer, and if for some reason someone still didn't get the picture, then I'd take away his Nintendo until he straightened up. [​IMG]
     
  13. Truth_Teller

    Truth_Teller New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega;55660)
    Like I said I do not believe just because of miracles. If you want to accept Hinduism go right ahead but I'll let you in on a little secret the sun is still here (it's a secret shhhhh).
    You starting point was about the miracle and martyrdom and now you are denying the both. No no, you misunderstood, I don´t want to accept Hinduism. It was just put forward to confront your logics.And yes, sun is still here - right. But it´s because when his elders complained about it Krishna brought it back (vomited it)[​IMG].(Alpha and Omega;55660)
    well you will have to back that up (persecutor) because I have never came across anything like that written about Paul. LOL invented doctrine let's just see how silly this sounds.....invent something and then go to the grave preaching it when you can live a peaceful life somewheres else.
    I knew this was coming. It´s fact which Christians will never accept it. If Jesus did it then tell me, was he a fool to have claimed Messiahood also which could never have been accepted by Jews since multiple gods were/are not acceptable as per Judaism??? He could never have done this while staying inside the pale of Judaism.(Alpha and Omega;55660)
    Sun still exists my friend.
    I have explained the incident before.(Alpha and Omega;55660)
    God = Jesus = Holy Spirit = one in the same
    There is no other deity but Allah, The One Supreme Being!!!
     
  14. Lunar

    Lunar New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega)
    well you will have to back that up (persecutor) because I have never came across anything like that written about Paul. LOL invented doctrine let's just see how silly this sounds.....invent something and then go to the grave preaching it when you can live a peaceful life somewheres else.
    This is not "invented." Paul admits to it himself.Galatians 1:13: "For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it."1 Corinthians 15:9: "For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."The book of Acts also states that Paul was a persecuter of early Christians.Acts 9:1-4: "1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"
     
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