@mailmandan Legalism is indeed a great danger; it detracts from 'the simplicity that is in Christ' (2 Corinthians 11.8).
Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?
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I think the main danger is for new christians, they may not realise legalists do not practice what they preach. And, new christians, being given the random letter without taking the message as one cohesive whole, may, imagine the legalist preaching to them does themself fully obey what they insist of others. Then the new convert gets crushed and walks away from the church. The legalist doesn't care, its all about self promotion for them
I was very blessed when I became a Christian to belong to a church where good solid foundations were laid for the rest of my life. I have only ever belonged to two fellowships and was fed spiritually good food by both.
@Pearl Such an immense blessing, fellowship and sound teaching from the Word....
@mailmandan Your comments remind me of Jeremiah 17.10: "I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."
I have been a member of various different Christian forums over the past 10 years, and I have ran into “Sin and Still Be Saved Type Believers” like yourself over the years. In fact, it is the predominant viewpoint that is pushed on most general Christian forums. Yes, you are not “Hyper Grace” (in that you say you can live in a lifestyle of sin and still be saved), but you are for what I call, “Partial Hyper Grace” (in that you preach a double message in that on one hand you appear to be for holy living yet on the other hand you interpret 1 John 1:8 as meaning believers will always sin this side of Heaven in some way - even though it may not be classified as practicing sin).
Partial Hyper Grace is simply a smoke screen in justifying sin (Which is a position I believe you hold to) because it has a wrong view of what happens when you sin. In other words, many of you in the Partial Hyper Grace camp say that when you sin, you don't believe you lose your salvation and or that you are in danger of spiritual death. While this may not be you, some in your camp will say that confessing sin is not necessary. But the Bible makes it clear that we are to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).
Jesus Himself said,
“but whosoever shall say, Thou fool,
shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22).
shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22).
In your viewpoint: You don't believe the words of Jesus. Your Once Saved Always Saved, and there is no danger of hell fire ever (Which runs contrary to the words of Jesus). You ultimately believe sin does not endanger your soul or that it can kill you spiritually (after you are saved by God's grace).
Here are a test questions to see whether or not you are promoting the concept of turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4):
(1) Was King David saved before he fell into adultery and murder? YES or NO.
(2) Was King David still saved while in adultery and murder and before he repented? YES or NO.
(3) Had King David died physically when in adultery and murder would he have gone to hell? YES or NO.
(4) Is it possible that a real Christian can lose his salvation? YES or NO.
(5) Did Peter lose his salvation when he disowned Jesus three times? YES or NO.
(6) Did Solomon lose his salvation when his heart turned to idolatry? YES or NO.
(2) Was King David still saved while in adultery and murder and before he repented? YES or NO.
(3) Had King David died physically when in adultery and murder would he have gone to hell? YES or NO.
(4) Is it possible that a real Christian can lose his salvation? YES or NO.
(5) Did Peter lose his salvation when he disowned Jesus three times? YES or NO.
(6) Did Solomon lose his salvation when his heart turned to idolatry? YES or NO.
You also promoted on another website the false teachings of Ray Comfort of Living Waters (who clearly teaches turning God's grace into a license to sin like you believe) (here is the post).
This article link here exposes Ray's license for immorality:
RAY COMFORT | Living Waters | Hell's Best Kept Secret
(Note: Many of your posts are not searchable on ChristianForums. While this is most likely due to your hiding your profile, and it may not have been your intention, but the reality is that by doing so: It simply makes you look you are trying to hide what you write at times). No doubt this is in your favor because you ultimately teach a license to sin under God's grace on a smaller level. Anyways, I was fortunate to find at least one of our previous arguments at CF.
Sins Not Unto Death
Protestantism (Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism) is the second largest branch of Christianity (with close to 1 billion adherents). However, Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it (Matthew 7:14). Meaning, your way is not the true narrow way.
In your view, you don't really have to strive to enter the straight gate. You are changed by a one time prayer and you don't need to ever worry about anything anymore. You believe God will just help you to live sort of holy while you secretly teach that believers can sin and still be saved.
In your view: It is legalism to obey God by faith (after we are saved by God's grace), and we continue in His grace. You see faith only as a belief and you cut out the word “works” when it comes to describing our faith (even though many of you will admit that the whole of your New Testament is all a part of the faith). You just hate works so badly that you remove “works” from the faith (By saying that works is not faith), and then you contradict yourself and say it is the evidence of your faith. You don't think you have to continue in the faith, or continue in God's grace or keep yourself in the love of God (even though the Bible says these things).
The Gotquestions article is a perfect example of the unbiblical nonsense you believe.
Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org
The article states that while a believer is characterized by living a holy life, they also double speak and contradict themselves on upholding that standard of morality by saying that a believer who has backslidden into a lifestyle of sin is still saved. This means that they believe the prodigal son who was living it up with prostitutes was still saved (Even though the father in the parable said his son was dead and he was alive again when he came back home seeking forgiveness with him).
You said:Many of these people are 'spiritual narcissists' and instead of promoting Christ, such people exploit Christ in order to promote themselves.
I am sure you are implying me in this conversation. This is yet another false accusation by you (if this is directed towards me) to simply uplift yourself. I am not seeking to promote myself but Jesus Christ and His Word. But Jesus said we would be accused falsely in Matthew 5:10-11. In fact, this would not be your first false accusation against me (if it is directed towards me) without you even apologizing (after I exposed your accusations openly).
You mention narcissists (as if to imply I may be one).
Symptoms of narcissists (According to Mayo Clinic):
- Have an exaggerated sense of self-importance
- Have a sense of entitlement and require constant, excessive admiration
- Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
- Exaggerate achievements and talents
- Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
- Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people
- Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior
- Expect special favors and unquestioning compliance with their expectations
- Take advantage of others to get what they want
- Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
- Be envious of others and believe others envy them
- Behave in an arrogant or haughty manner, coming across as conceited, boastful and pretentious
- Insist on having the best of everything — for instance, the best car or office
So if your accusation was directed towards me (of which it sounds like it was because we have been in recent discussion in this thread in strong disagreement on this topic), then you are falsely accusing the brethren. So if that is the case, an apology would be the appropriate and good thing to do.
Article source used in this post:
Narcissistic personality disorder - Symptoms and causes.
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We are saved initially by God's grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (cf. Ephesians 2:1). But God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).
What you call legalism is merely the instructions God desires of us as a part of our faith to enter the Kingdom (After we are saved by God's grace). Noah had to build the ark. If he just believed alone and he did not build the ark (as a part of his faith - See: Hebrews 11:7), he would have perished in the flood. Today, Christianity says you can sin and still be saved. I mean, what do you do with things like the Parable of the Talents? Do you just ignore that parable and seek to change it? There are many things like this in the Bible that you have to constantly duck, dodge, and ignore (or in some cases many tend to simply twist the Bible to make it say something else).
Today, while many Christians appear to be for holy living, they really are not for that at all. I have heard Christians say that believers can commit suicide and be saved. I have heard Christians say they can take the mark of the beast and be saved. I have heard Christians say that if you backslide into a lifestyle of sin you are still saved. The list of justifying sin is endless in the popular candy land of Christianity today (i.e. Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism). Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone-ism is the second largest branch in Christianity today (with close to 1 billion adherents - not counting Protestant groups such as the Church of Christ, and some Pentecostal and a few small holiness churches). Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. I don't think 1 billion are of the FEW that Jesus was talking about. Many of you just don't even believe the words of Jesus in verses like Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, etcetera.
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No. It's called believing the Bible.
1 John 1:9 says,
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful
and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
Psalms 66:18 says,
“If I regard iniquity in my heart,
the Lord will not hear me:”
the Lord will not hear me:”
I really don't think addressing everything else you wrote is going to help you if you reject verses like these and or if you change words in the Bible to suit your own theology. Anyways, I am striving to go over my New Testament commands to put on a website (Lord willing).
Side Note:
Oh, wait. You ignore English words like “If” in the Bible and replace it with words of your own imagining that you prefer. As if you know better than the 47 translators on the King James Bible (with many of them being fluent in Hebrew and Greek). So again, it’s useless to engage you with the Bible if you don’t accept every word of what it says. What you have is a pick and choose your own adventure Bible. I don’t have that problem. I believe EVERY word of God in my Bible. I believe ALL of it. You don’t.
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I don't believe we can understand the Scriptures without the Holy Spirit, either. But we need to make sure that when we were saved by God's grace that we have not accepted another Jesus or accepted another gospel in the fact that it calls us falsely to think we can later abide in some level of sin and still be saved while doing those sins (Which pretty much is the majority of Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone churches - which numbers close to 1 billion, i.e. which by definition cannot be the narrow way that Jesus spoke of; 1 billion is not narrow). See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 for the real “call of the gospel.” Granted, God having chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth is not the gospel, but it is the CALL of the gospel.
What you also fail to understand is that the Spirit can be grieved (See: Ephesians 4:30).
Isaiah 63:10 (NKJV) says:
“But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.”
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.”
This is simply not being preached today because believers think they can commit suicide and be saved, or they don't endanger or lose their salvation if they commit sin, etcetera. Most Christians today have a sin and still be saved mentality on some level because of this (Speaking against the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, and Matthew 6:15).
No. The Scriptures (the Bible) is not just ink on paper.
Jeremiah 23:29
“Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD;
and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?”
2 Timothy 3:16-17 says:and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?”
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect,
throughly furnished unto all good works.”
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect,
throughly furnished unto all good works.”
God's Word does not return void (See: Isaiah 55:11).
You said:
There are cults like the JW's, Mormons, etcetera who are obviously following a false way. They reject the Bible alone as their authority.
While many in Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism churches claim to be Bible Alone, they actually play games with the text to believe the way they do. They cannot in good conscience believe everything as written in their Bible plainly. For example: Two Belief Alone Proponents have done this already in this thread. One has denied the word “If” in their English bible. Another has denied the words, “By faith” in relation to Noah prepared an ark to the saving of his house in Hebrews 11:7. They have changed it to the words “Out of faith” when no dictionary or translation supports them in saying that. So when they are corrected with the Bible, they simply change it to suit their own ends or false theology in that they can sin and still be saved or claim works of faith is not a part of our faith (Sending the message that one can be unfruitful and be saved; Although some who do say works of faith don't save will contradict themselves and say that works must be evidence of a saving faith - which is a secret way of their saying they are saved by works without wanting to admit it to themselves.).
You said:
If this was the only verse in the Bible, you would be on to something. But it's not.
Three things people misunderstand when they read Paul is that...
#1. When Paul spoke negatively of works and the Law (when spoken in a generic sense), he was referring to the 613 Laws of Moses that does not apply anymore). Just read the context when Paul did this and it will become evident.
#2. Paul fought against the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (Which was a false belief that said you had to first be circumcised to be saved) (See: Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24, and Galatians 5:2). For if a person thought they had to first be saved by circumcision instead of first being initially saved by God's grace, they would be making a law or work the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation (Which is wrong).
#3. Paul was speaking of our Initial Salvation by God's grace (Which is a process of salvation without works). They fail to recognize that Paul speaks elsewhere of the secondary aspect of salvation as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, and Galatians 6:8-9.
#2. Paul fought against the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (Which was a false belief that said you had to first be circumcised to be saved) (See: Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24, and Galatians 5:2). For if a person thought they had to first be saved by circumcision instead of first being initially saved by God's grace, they would be making a law or work the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation (Which is wrong).
#3. Paul was speaking of our Initial Salvation by God's grace (Which is a process of salvation without works). They fail to recognize that Paul speaks elsewhere of the secondary aspect of salvation as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, and Galatians 6:8-9.
Of course, will you look at these verses like a good Berean and just believe them at face value?
Or will you seek to change God's Word to suit your own ends because you don't like what these verses say?
You said:
So is it legalistic to interpret the plain words of Jesus as warning how our souls can be destroyed by sin at the sermon on the Mount?
If so... then what verses support this viewpoint?
You said:
I have on very rare occasions put people on ignore at even at the old forum I talked on more frequently (i.e. ChristianForums). But I usually strive not to do so and just no longer reply to them directly and I give a response in an indirect way as if I am speaking to an audience (Like saying: “To all” etc.). Other times, their own sayings are just so nonsensical and unbiblical that it is not even worth replying to. Self control is the key which is one of the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Apparently, you preach sinless perfection and 1 John 1:8 is in the present tense, so those who claim to believe they live a sinless, without fault of defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) deceive themselves and the truth is not in them and they are also suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)
So you interpret 'forsake sin' as 'never sin again?' Does that describe you? It's not about justifying sin and from what you teach it's either sinless and perfect 100% of the time or else you won't be saved or confess each and every sin that you commit as you commit them (keep a specific inventory) and if you overlook a certain sin or forget to confess one you are toast! You seem to have more faith in your works/personal holiness/keeping a specific inventory of every sin you have ever committed and confessing each one to remain saved than you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation. From someone who has not demonstrated that he truly believes the gospel, you talk a lot about sin and performance/works.
I believe the words of Jesus. The point here is that the internal attitude which stems from sinful motives (anger and hatred) here carries the same kind of moral guilt as an act of murder.
Apart from faith in Christ and the blood of Christ, all sin places us in danger of hell fire. Was Jesus threatening believers here about losing their salvation or is that more eisegesis from you? Elsewhere, what did Jesus say about believers?
John 6:39 - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 11:25 - Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” Apparently, you don't believe this.
Instead of answering your loaded questions, why don't you show me from the Bible where it specifically says that King David, Solomon and Peter or anyone else "lost their salvation." I'm yet to find those specific words in the Bible. I also can't find the words, UN-saved, UN-regenerated, Un-sealed by the Holy Spirit etc..
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Actually, you have a different Mailman Dan here. I was not a member of Christian Forums in 2005 and did not join my first Christian forum (Bible Forums) until 2010-2011. My avatar name on most Christian forums is mailmandan and not Mailman Dan. Sorry to disappoint you. I know you must have been really looking forward to an indictment here.
Here we go with more false accusations and even slander, which is sin. I actually go by the avatar name 'Danthemailman' on Christian Forums and I have nothing to hide. Having weak moments and stumbling as a Christian is not about having a license to sin. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. We start out as babes in Christ and grow onward towards maturity in Christ. This doesn't mean we never stumble along the way.
So you believe the narrow way is through sinless perfection? Only Jesus Christ lived a sinless life 100% of the time (Hebrews 4:15) so your way is not the true narrow way. (Romans 3:23- 6:23) The true narrow way is through faith in Jesus Christ. (3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; John 10:9; 14:6; Acts 4:12) Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL SUFFICIENT means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. That IS the narrow way.
In Luke 13:24, Jesus is not teaching salvation by works. Strive to enter through the narrow gate signifies a struggle against conflict. Christ was not suggesting that anyone could merit eternal life by striving or working hard enough to obtain it based on the merits of their performance. No matter how rigorously people labor, sinners could never save themselves by works. Entering through the narrow gate is nonetheless difficult because of it's cost in terms of human pride and and self righteousness, which prevents them from choosing to repent and believe the gospel. Salvation through faith in Christ is the narrow gate.
More slander. Obeying God by or out of faith after we are saved by God's grace is not legalism. Setting out to obey God with the wrong motivations and for the wrong purpose (seeking salvation by works) is legalism.
You try to "shoe horn" works "into" faith making no distinction between faith and works and the end result is salvation by faith and works. Roman Catholics and Church of Christ folks make the same error. It's one thing for works to be a part of the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines, but works are not a part of saving faith in Christ. Works are the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith. This remains your achilles heel.
More slander and evidence of faith is not essence of faith. Learn the difference.
Genuine believers do continue in the faith and in God's grace and in the love of God. That's what sets them apart from 'pseudo' Christians.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In regards to the prodigal son, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. People in the NOSAS camp interpret this parable as the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation). I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS).
Oh the irony. It's you who seeks to uplift yourself as you continue to make false accusations about others. That is not promoting Jesus Christ and His Word, but SELF.
Pot calling the kettle black. You have no room whatsoever to accuse others of making false accusations.
You have no room to speak about falsely accusing the brethren and you come across as being so FULL OF YOURSELF, but apparently you just can't see it. Neither can LoveGodsWord on CF. Sigh.. I pray that the Holy Spirit convicts your heart.
We do not have to BE sinless for God to SEE us as sinless. What we need for that is to be washed in the blood of the Lamb. When we are God no longer sees our sin because it is washed away. We no longer live a life of sin but a life of righteousness because of Jesus. It amazes me why people either can't see or understand that or choose to ignore it.
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A newborn baby is TOTALLY DEPENDENT on its Mother and the family that surrounds it.
They FEED, CLEANSE, give WARMETH & LOVE to that infant in the initial stages of its life.
That is what the God does with us through his word. The Spirit, ( if we allow him ) leads us through the easy to digest MILK of the Word. As we grow we begin our discipleship. [ IMPORTANT]
We teach a baby that it can trust us as we teach it to crawl walk, and learn so does the Spirit teach us to trust God.
Our focus on the child is to learn to walk talk, dress, feed and care for itself. The Spirit leads us thru these steps also in the Word as we mature. WE HAVE TO TRUST IN HIS LEADING AND NOT STRUGGLE AGAINST HIS TEACHINGS !
Ppl here are quick to say I'm being led of the Spirit but I wonder have they progressed beyond the milk into maturity for real.
There is an anomaly in growing that is called " failure to thrive". Its where children do not reach the potential in growth by the charts that other children maintain, ie wt., ht., and head circumference. They are slowed in many skills that are related to FTT.
Believers display this same event in spirituality. They want to mature but are not receiving enough of the correct word or even the richness of the Word. They want to mature faster so they by-pass the land-marks of the roots in the Word, that help cement them solidly in the vine.
There is nothing wrong with a zeal for God but too big chunks of meat will choke the zeal from a believer and cause stumbling and backsliding.
They FEED, CLEANSE, give WARMETH & LOVE to that infant in the initial stages of its life.
That is what the God does with us through his word. The Spirit, ( if we allow him ) leads us through the easy to digest MILK of the Word. As we grow we begin our discipleship. [ IMPORTANT]
We teach a baby that it can trust us as we teach it to crawl walk, and learn so does the Spirit teach us to trust God.
Our focus on the child is to learn to walk talk, dress, feed and care for itself. The Spirit leads us thru these steps also in the Word as we mature. WE HAVE TO TRUST IN HIS LEADING AND NOT STRUGGLE AGAINST HIS TEACHINGS !
Ppl here are quick to say I'm being led of the Spirit but I wonder have they progressed beyond the milk into maturity for real.
There is an anomaly in growing that is called " failure to thrive". Its where children do not reach the potential in growth by the charts that other children maintain, ie wt., ht., and head circumference. They are slowed in many skills that are related to FTT.
Believers display this same event in spirituality. They want to mature but are not receiving enough of the correct word or even the richness of the Word. They want to mature faster so they by-pass the land-marks of the roots in the Word, that help cement them solidly in the vine.
There is nothing wrong with a zeal for God but too big chunks of meat will choke the zeal from a believer and cause stumbling and backsliding.
WE claim our goal is to help unbelievers and our brethren but by some of the post, ppl are here for their own purpose to glorify themselves.
It's simplicity is the beauty of salvation!
It's simplicity is the beauty of salvation!
Exactly! We must come as little children and accept.
1 Corinthians 2:2
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
@Pearl Good verse there; I saw the grave headstone of a faithful preacher with that verse inscribed on it...
@Pearl Your comments remind me of the words of Robert Murray M'Cheyne, with their evident background in the truth of Biblical justification:
"When I stand before the throne,
dressed in beauty not my own,
when I see thee as thou art,
love thee with unsinning heart,
then, Lord, shall I fully know,
not till then, how much I owe."
Proverbs 30:20 says:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman;
she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith,
I have done no wickedness.”
she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith,
I have done no wickedness.”
Isaiah 5:20
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
Malachi 2:17 AMP
“You have wearied the LORD with your words. But you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them,” or [by asking], “Where is the God of justice?”
What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).
In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,
"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).
In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.
John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.
You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.
Jesus said, “sin no more” with two people (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
You obviously don't believe Him like you do His other words.
You said:
What is confessing sins all about? Is about you? Or is it about God and His grace?
When people seek forgiveness with another person even, do they boast about how they did that with other people as if it was a work?
Surely not. The Bible tells you to confess your sins (i.e. confess your sins to Jesus) in order to be forgiven of them (See: 1 John 1:9) (cf. 1 John 2:1). So it’s not about me or my telling you what to do, but it simply is what God’s Holy Word is telling you to do. Forgiveness of sins is tied to salvation in the Bible (When it relates to God). For we never see anywhere in the Bible whereby God forgives a person’s sins and it is not dealing with their salvation.
As for holy living:
God’s Word says,
“Follow peace with all men, and holiness,
without which no man shall see the Lord:”
(Hebrews 12:14).
without which no man shall see the Lord:”
(Hebrews 12:14).
And this:
“See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God, and that no root of bitterness springs up to cause trouble and defile many.” (Hebrews 12:15) (Berean Standard Bible).
So following after peace with all men, and following after holiness we will….
(a) See the Lord (without which we will not see the Lord if we are not following after peace with all men and we are not following after holiness).
(b) Be led to tell other believers to not fall short of the grace of God (by answering the call of the gospel - which is God having chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit - 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and or by allowing God’s grace to teach us to deny ungodliness - Titus 2:11-12). For Hebrews 12:14 appears to be connected with Hebrews 12:15 in that it says we are to tell other believers to Follow after holiness and follow after peace with all men and if they fall short, they will not see the Lord and they will fall short of the grace of God, whereby a root of bitterness will come in and it will defile many.
(b) Be led to tell other believers to not fall short of the grace of God (by answering the call of the gospel - which is God having chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit - 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and or by allowing God’s grace to teach us to deny ungodliness - Titus 2:11-12). For Hebrews 12:14 appears to be connected with Hebrews 12:15 in that it says we are to tell other believers to Follow after holiness and follow after peace with all men and if they fall short, they will not see the Lord and they will fall short of the grace of God, whereby a root of bitterness will come in and it will defile many.
You said:
No, you don’t believe the words of Jesus because whenever I bring up verses about how Jesus warns about how sin can destroy our souls in the afterlife (like Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15) you simply do not believe them.
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