Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well then show where God will remove you from heavenly places!
Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?
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Well then show where God will remove you from heavenly places!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And now we are slaves to righteousness! Teh chain has been broken forever!
Sin is not the3 issue- Grace is!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So to you a brand new believer who has no knowledge of sin and righteousness and defends a sinful behavior cause they don't know better- is not saved? Wow what lack of mercy!
I am not saying that God will do so according to His what His Word says directly, but we do know God can blot a person’s name out of the book of life in Revelation 3:5. Was a person who is in the book of life seated in heavenly places?
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What you see as a lack of mercy, I see it as rebellion. I believe God can be merciful to us, but we have to be willing to turn from our sins and to live a holy life. Those believers who have disposition to think they must sin and still be saved on some level having a wrong view of grace. Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Jude 1:4 warns us against those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality. Is it not possible that is what you and many others believe when you say that you can sin and not lose your salvation? In fact, what you believe runs contrary to the words of Jesus and His apostles. Jesus warned that to look upon a woman in lust means one is in danger of hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30). Paul says if one does not provide for his own his worse than an infidel (unbeliever), and he has denied the faith (1 Timothy 5:8). Again, this does not sound like OSAS or a future sin is forgiven you type belief.
A slave to righteousness is a person who does righteousness. See 1 John 3:7.
A slave to sin will not abide in the house forever (John 8:34-35) (Matthew 13:41-42).
I think we need to read all of the context in Colossians to see what is going on (Instead of just reading this portion of Scripture out of context).
We have to first keep in mind that this is talking to a body of believers at Colossae.
Paul does not know who in that church is risen with Christ and who is a slave to their sin (because of their trying to wrongfully keep the 613 Laws of Moses). At the end of Colossians 2, we see that Paul says this to the church:
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17) (KJB).
“Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? (Colossians 2:21-22) (NKJV).
“These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.” (Colossians 2:23) (NLT).
See, this is why Paul said that he struggled with sin as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24. When Paul was a Pharisee, he was under the Old regulations of the 613 laws of Moses like the Sabbaths, holy days, dietary laws, etcetera. Paul was unable to overcome sin in regards to keeping the moral laws (like do not steal, do not covet, etc.) because he was wrongfully under the 613 Laws of Moses. But this Old law is no more (Romans 6:14, Acts 13:39, Acts 15:1-24). We are under a New Covenant with new commands (For Paul says he is under the Law of Christ - 1 Corinthians 9:21; And Hebrews 7:12 says the law has changed).
Paul uses conditional IF words in Colossians here.
“…if ye be dead with Christ” (Colossians 2:20).
“If ye then be risen with Christ” (Colossians 3:3).
So when Paul says “IF you then be risen with Christ” he is talking only to those who truly have been risen with Christ and not just any believer in Jesus Christ. How do we get a definition according to the Bible of those who are risen with Christ?
Lets turn to Romans 6.
“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”. (Romans 6:4-5).
So our water baptism is a LIKENESS of being baptized into Christ’s death. It is symbolic of His death. But what is interesting is that this passage says that Christ’s resurrection is compared to walking in newness of life. Meaning, if we walk in the New ways of the Spirit and of obeying the New Covenant ways according to NT Scripture (that was inspired by the Spirit), then we will be in the LIKENESS of the resurrection. So our walking uprightly (or in walking with a new risen or resurrected life that is changed) shows that our new life in conduct is symbolic of the resurrection.
So this is what it means to be…. IF you have been risen with Christ.
If one has been truly risen with Christ, their changed heart, mind, and life in Christ will help them to live a resurrected life as proof of that change.
These are the ones who have their life hidden in Christ and who are dead to themselves but alive unto Jesus and His good ways.
It’s not saying just any ole believer in Jesus as their Savior is going to have their life hid in Christ.
The context is talking about those who are risen with Christ.
Paul says IF you have then be risen with Christ.
So this is not proof for Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief.
You said:
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Already you have failed the test of faith like many here. Because you don’t like what the Bible says at this point in the fact that it contradicts your theology, you seek to change what it says plainly. The Bible should not be changed to fit what we want it to say. To change the Bible to fit what we want to believe is simply cheating and it’s not being honest with what God’s Word says.
Mailmandan has also attempted to alter the Bible when it did not fit his theology within this thread. Dan said that Hebrews 11:17 is saying “Out of faith” instead of “By faith”. No actual dictionary has this kind of definition and no other translation says this. He only is seeking to change the Bible to suit his own theology and that is wrong.
The Bible should correct us and we should not correct the Bible.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2:10 does say that we are saved "for" or "unto" good works.
*Multiple translations clearly say for good works.*
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.. (ASV)
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His creation-created in Christ Jesus for good works.. (HSB)
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.. (ESV)
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua for good works.. (HNV)
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.. (NAS)
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.. (NKJV)
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works.. (NRS)
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.. (RSV)
See for yourself - What Does Ephesians 2:10 Mean? "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them."
Works do not save us and works are the evidence of saving faith. That is not a contradiction. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend?
Works don't save and works "follow" having been saved by grace through faith.
That's not how it works and enough with the derogatory labels. It's not that we must produce works in order to be saved but that we WILL produce works IF we truly are saved. You have it backwards.
Don't forget verse 8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.
Your face value reading of James 2:24 has led you and other works-salvationists (including Romans Catholics) to believe that "justified by works" means saved by works, in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. Speaking of Roman Catholics, their face value reading of John 6:53-56 has led them to believe in transubstantiation (cannibalism) so face value reading doesn't always cut it. We need to read scripture in context and we also need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.
If you accomplish a good work it is done "by" or "out of" faith and the good work is not faith itself. Faith is established first and the good works "follow" and are produced "by" or "out of" faith. Just like Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6. (Also see Romans 4:2-3). Many years later it was "by" or "out of" faith that Abraham offered up Isaac in Genesis 22. You are not being honest with the text when you try to turn the work that is done "by" or "out of" faith into faith itself so "by" faith becomes saved "by" works, in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
It's obvious what you believe. Initially saved by grace through faith, not works, (Jesus merely "initially" saves you) then after that, you keep yourself saved by holy living/good works through the sanctification process - "type 2 works salvation" or "back door works salvation."
More "type 2 works salvation." You seem to be desperately seeking credit and/or affirmation. Our works show that we are saved but works do not save us. We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it.
CONTINUED...
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I hear your "type 2 works salvation" plan loud and clear. You have clearly stated that faith merely initially saves us multiple times then after that works save us. Got it. Whether you teach front door or back door works salvation or both you are still preaching a "works based" false gospel. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Period.
I do get into the Bible alone and I attend a non-denominational Church.
Through eisegesis you continue to "add" works to the gospel, which culminates in salvation through faith "and works." Again, when we are justified we are also sanctified. (Acts 26:18; 1 Corinthians 6:11)
More eisegesis that culminates in a "works based" false gospel. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Simply believes. No supplements needed.
In regards to 1 John 3:7, children of God practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous. The NLT sums it up nicely...When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.
In regards to Titus 2:11-12, as I already previously explained, the grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men" (yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace is unmerited and brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and in Titus 2:11-12, the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. That's not about saved by works, but saved for/unto good works.
Genuine believers will be faithful over a few things which is the demonstrative evidence of being a genuine believer. In this parable, the first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted. Faith without works is dead. Remember?
Roman Catholics also like to stress that it's not works alone. It's actually salvation through faith in Christ alone and not salvation by faith and works, as you teach.
Faith that saves involves trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Doing what God wants you to do (good works) is WORKS. Faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation and acts of obedience which "follow" are WORKS. You cannot seem to make the distinction and this remains your achilles heel. Just like Roman Catholics, you re-define faith to "include" works. Roman Catholics say we are saved through faith "infused" with works and Church of Christ folks who also re-define faith to "include" works say we are saved through faith "conjoined" with works. You are bringing up a lot of memories for me of what I used to believe prior to my conversion.
No it isn't. Roman Catholics also use this same faulty reasoning in an effort to "get around" the truth found in Ephesians 2:8,9. Elsewhere the apostle Paul said that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5) and in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. We are not saved by works in general. Just deal with it.
Roman Catholics would agree with you, yet even though fighting against the heresy of circumcision and law keeping for the Jews was certainly an issue in many of his letters, Paul made it clear that works are not merely limited to circumcision and law keeping, but includes works in general as well that do not save us.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
It's you who continues to altar the Bible by teaching "back door" works salvation. If something is accomplished "by" faith then it is accomplished "out of" faith. You turn "by" faith into "is" faith so that you can turn salvation by faith into salvation by works (at least through the back door). So was it not out of faith or out of faith that these works in Hebrews 11 were accomplished? Do you understand the difference between something being accomplished out of faith or not out of faith?
I changed nothing. Works accomplished by faith simply means these works were done "out of" faith here in Hebrews 11 and not that faith is in essence the works themselves, as you try to teach which culminates in salvation by works.
In Hebrews 11:3, the AMPC translation reads - [Prompted, actuated] by faith.. The CEV - reads because Abel had faith.. The PHILLIPS reads - It was because of his faith.. The MSG reads - By an act of faith.. This clearly supports "out of" faith.
In regards to various dictionaries, in the WordHippo Thesaurus, we see as synonyms of BY are a consequence of, as a result of, by reason of, caused by, on account of, and YES even OUT OF.
GOTCHA!Look under: Preposition
As a result of
Preposition
through
after
given
granted
with
in consequence of
as a consequence of
as a result
as a result of
attributable to
because of
by dint of
by reason
by reason of
by virtue of
caused by
down to
due to
following
for the sake of
in the wake of
on account of
on grounds of
on the basis of
on the grounds of
on the strength of
out of
owing to
thanks to
by means of
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/by.html
Oh the irony. You should heed your own words here.
Ephesians 2:10 says:
“For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.”
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.”
Okay. You have a special talent in misunderstanding people and making an imaginary case against them that they have never made. I was not talking about the word “for” in Ephesians 2:10 (as you were emphasizing).
You said I quote:
In my post #146, I referred to the word “saved” that you either interpreted or inserted into Ephesians 2:10.
Ephesians 2:10 does not use the word “saved.” Nor does Ephesians 2:10 use the same words you did by your saying:
“We are saved for good works and not by good works.” (by: Mailmandan). Neither does Ephesians 2:10 imply such a thing using other words, either.
Romans 3:27 (NKJV) says,
“Where is boasting then?
It is excluded. By what law? Of works?
No, but by the law of faith.”
It is excluded. By what law? Of works?
No, but by the law of faith.”
Romans 2:23 says,
“You who make your boast in the law,...”
Romans 3:1 says,
“What advantage then hath the Jew?
or what profit is there of circumcision?”
or what profit is there of circumcision?”
Circumcision is a part of the Laws of Moses (going back even further to Abraham). Circumcision was not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. So they were boasting in the 613 Laws of Moses.
In other words, Romans 3:27 is saying that boasting is not excluded by the 613 Laws of Moses. Nor is boasting excluded in “the works” of the 613 Laws of Moses. Boasting is excluded in the law of faith.
“By faith, Noah,... moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;” (See: Hebrews 11:7).
Romans 3:27 says boasting is excluded when it comes to the law of faith. A work of faith is not something done outside of the faith. It's still faith just as Noah by faith built the ark to the saving of his household. So Noah could not boast in building the ark because he was simply doing what God told him to do. Therefore...
Ephesians 2:9 is in reference to works done outside of the faith because Ephesians 2:9 is implying that one will boast in this kind of work.
No believer can boast in what God tells them to do because they are just following what God says.
Luke 17:10 says,
“So likewise ye,
when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say,
We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”
when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say,
We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”
So this is what you don't understand. You don't realize that boasting is excluded by the law of faith. The whole chapter of Hebrews 11 are examples of faith. But you don't want Hebrews 11 to be a part of the faith because it involves works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11).
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@Bible Highlighter I came across this thread again and am now wondering what you see as the "hundreds of New Testament commands". Please will you clarify.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
You should have been more clear by what you meant in post #146. You did not underline or bold the word "saved" and make the point that the specific word "saved" is not found in verse 10. Instead, you simply quoted Ephesians 2:10 with the word "unto" instead of "for." My main point is that we are saved by grace through faith FIRST, then created in Christ Jesus for good works. It's not nonsensical to say that we are saved FOR good works and not BY good works.
You should have been that specific in verse #146. Just because the word "saved" is not specifically used in verse 10 does not negate my point.
Trying to limit boasting to specific works of the law only? In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect works of faith/good works from the law.
Faith is not works.
Yes, "by" or "out of" faith Noah moved with fear, prepared an ark..
Are you seeking to boast in yourself? As for me, Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Are you trying to turn a work of faith into faith itself? A work is done out of faith, but is not faith itself. This remains your achilles heel.
Church of Christ folks would agree with you here. I've heard them make this same argument numerous times.
Church of Christ folks make this argument as well.
I've had Church of Christ folks cite this verse to me multiple times over the years in an effort to make the same point you are making.
What you don't understand is that the law of faith is not the law of works, whether specific works of the law or works done by or out of faith.
There is a big difference between works being the demonstrative evidence of faith and works being an integral part of faith or the very essence of faith. Works-salvationists in general do not understand this. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic Church, I did not understand it either, but I clearly understand it now.
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Hmmm, not sure how Abraham was saved by works. If a man went to any church I've ever been to and passed his wife off as his sister, then let her be taken into another man's house, and have gifts showered on him by the man because he wanted to marry her, he'd be thrown out of the church.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No. there are two books. The book of life is also known as the book of the living. If a person is blotted out of this, it means they physically died.
Teh book in Revelation is the Lambs book of life- which are the names of the saved.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So to you mercy is conditional. That is sad! Mercy and grace are given unconditionally! Gods mercy is fresh and new every morning as the psalm says.
I don't know of any believers nor have I ever taught any believers we MUST sin. No we MUST NOT anymore. We have experienced 2 of the three redemptions a believer will experience.
1. When Jesus died on the cross, we were redeemed (agorazo) from the penalty of sin.
2 When we trusted Christ we were redeemed( lutroo) form the power of sin.
3. when we go home we will be redeemed (exagorazo) from the presence of sin.
I agree that it is dangerous to turn grace into a license. But I am not speaking of that. We will still sin on and off till the day we die. Though god has declared us perfect, we are not yet what He has declared us to be! We are being made holy according to teh good work Jesus has begun in us!
I think your difficulty lies in that you do not understand the biblical truths of what my circle calls"positional truth" and "experiential truth"
Paul speaks of both extensively in His epistles
POstionally we are perfected forever, justified, glorified, seated in heavenly places, dead and hid in Christ and already have eternal life ( not probationary eternal life).
Experientially Paul in nearly all his letters exhorts and encourages people to keep on sheddin goff teh old man and be clothed with the new. To grow in grace, grow in holiness, grow inlove etc. etc. Why does he exhort this? Because we are imperfect in these bodsies and need to grow- that is what sanctification is about.
God forbid we should sin. but if a believer sins.
1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. ...
YOu need to understand that when God looks at us- He sees Jesus! that is why Paul could boldly say we are dead and our lives are hidden!
Now what about when we sin? Well, we are already forgiven, and those sins were already placed on Jesus account! God is forever done being angry with HIs children over their sin. So if that is the case, why do we suffer when we sin? Very simple. Sins wages are death so when we sin and live in unconfessed sin, we live in broken fellowship with God. And we will experience the consequences of the cost of sin. in our experience. Why? So God will teach us to learn to hate sin more and more as we grow in faith. If we are living in overt rebellion and selfishness- the consequences in this life will be more severe. But the simple truth is most believers sin because we are weak and frail despite having God living inside of us! And as Jesus said:
Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And a believer is no longer a slave to sin! It is that simple. We may act sometimes like we still are But God is patient and merciful to His children! Even David in teh Psalms knew of the great mercies of God! And he sinned and sinned and sinned some more. But Gods testimony of King David was that He was a man after Gods own heart and that he was perfect in all his ways excpet for the matter of Uriah.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Thanks for swelling my ego!
But hey! All of us can be this way! I have the same Holy Spirit everyone else does. He does the changing, we just do the letting of HIm!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No, but as JOhn wrote in one of His epistles we can certainly know we have eternasl life! While we live in unconfessed sin we lost that Divine Assurance, but when we acknowledge our sin, god forgives keeps cleansing and once again assures us we are His!
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