Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). ​

Faith also finishes off as belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior which means we are trusting in Him ALONE for salvation from beginning (Ephesians 2:8) to end (1 Peter 1:9). Faith that also trusts in works for salvation and NOT in Christ ALONE is a divided, invalid faith that cannot save. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift. We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20).

So according to your theology, Christ merely "initially" saves you then after that, you do the rest and keep yourself saved - "type 2 works salvation." Either Christ is an ALL SUFFICIENT Savior or else He is an IN-sufficient Savior. According to your "type 2 works salvation" theology Christ is an IN-sufficient Savior.

If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to redeem that sin; But they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith.

So we are merely "initially" saved by grace through faith then after that, salvation is maintained by exhaustive inventory confession of sin and our performance/works according to you. This equates to back door works righteousness.

No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Many people who believe in God, and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

Sadly, many people think they have accepted Jesus as their Savior, but they still have not yet placed their faith in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation and are still trusting in their works for salvation. Sound familiar?
​

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues with...

You mean the journey of works continues that culminates in salvation by grace through faith AND WORKS - "type 2 works salvation."

The 2nd Side of the Coin of Faith:

#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Protestants seem to separate works from faith in a way that goes beyond how James describes them. Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked a Protestant Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which in my view is not being consistent or honest with oneself).​

Faith is faith and works are works, yet you make no distinction between faith and works. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. As I already previously explained to you. Notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished or that we are saved by works that are produced "out of" faith. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work "followed" as a result or consequence "of" faith. I continuously hear works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics and yourself) try to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith and end up making no distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of faith and the end result is works righteousness.

#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.
​

Source:
Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a belief alone? No. The Lord is faithful to strengthening us (or in establishing us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Protestants have tried to come up with tricky ways to not apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism).

So now you are trying to turn "faithful" into salvation by works as you continue to attack Protestants. Just like Church of Christ folks, I can imagine that you interpret Revelation 2:10 as we must be "faithful enough" in addition to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation yet just "how faithful would you have to be?" Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include ANY number of works.

I at one time had temporarily attended the so called Church of Christ with a friend whose Aunt was a very devout member of that church. After running into his Aunt years later after becoming a Christian, I could not wait to tell her that I received Christ through faith and was now a born again Christian. Her only response was where do you attend church? When I did not say the Church of Christ she bowed her head to imply that I was deceived and still lost and she simply walked away from me and spoke with me no more. My friend later told me that his Aunt told him that I did not remain faithful, which according to her meant remaining in the Church of Christ and believing everything they taught.

Revelation 2:10 is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there! In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death. Unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death no matter how so called faithfulness they set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain attempt to receive salvation by works.

CONTINUED...​

 

[mailmandan]

#3. Romans 10:17. It says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).
​

How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus, and or the Bible (depending on the context) (Note: See this thread here to see the connection in Scripture between the Living Word and the Bible). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.

LoveGodsWord makes the same error that you make. You both confuse the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines with personal faith in Christ that brings salvation. (Ephesians 2:8) By saying that everything in the New Testament is faith itself, it makes it much easier to "add" works to salvation through faith. LoveGodsWord goes so far to say everything that proceeds out of the mouth of God is the gospel. His false gospel culminates in "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." You are not hung up on the old law, yet you still teach salvation by grace through faith PLUS WORKS which is also a false gospel. All of these same errors that you continue to make in regards to faith and works are the same errors that I continuously hear from numerous unbelievers who attend various false religions and cults. You seem to have absolutely no idea that you are deceived.

#4. Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). “By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the affliction of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

So according to you, faith is works and those who have faith never sin at all. So much confusion. Something done "by" faith is used to represent what a believer does "out of" faith. Plain and simple.
​

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (Which is a work of God).
What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on the water? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. For in Ephesians 2:9 it refers to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace) because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

So saved by good works, yet God gets the credit? Oxymoron. Christ gets 100% credit for our salvation and Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption ALONE and not based on the merits of our works.

#6. Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says,

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16).
​

So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith.

Obedience to the faith is not salvation by works as you teach. As I already previously explained, In Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works. You have this backwards because you teach works salvation.

There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith.

How does one become a servant of obedience unto righteousness? By faith or by works?

We must first obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) in order to become righteous.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

Once again, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. Once again, when we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." You continue to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. That continues to be your stumbling block. It was my stumbling block too prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church. Just like Catholics, Church of Christ, Mormons and other works-salvationists, you teach works righteousness. Difference in style perhaps, but still same in substance - "works based" false gospel.​

For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).

Genuine believers are no longer the children of disobedience. Ephesians 2:1 - And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

 

[mailmandan]

Bible Highlighter said:

#7. John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)​

#8. Works makes a person’s faith perfect (James 2:22).

This connects in with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Doctrine and instruction in righteousness is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. Anyways, the point here is that your faith is perfected by works. Thus, this shows us that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works that cannot be separated.

#9. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says: “We walk by faith.” So faith is not something whereby you do nothing but believe. We are to walk by faith. Walking is an action.

#10. Examine whether you be in the faith - 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we do this? Well, this is by proving Christ is in you. How can we show that we know the Lord? By keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). So keeping His commands is tied to knowing the Lord, and knowing the Lord is in us is a part of our examination of whether we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5).

#11. Galatians 5:6 says, “faith which worketh by love.”
Paul says in context within Galatians:

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Galatians 5:13-14).​

So faith works by love. It works in love by loving one another. Faith is not just a belief alone.

#12. Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” Service is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have its service.

#13. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

#14. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

#15. 1 Timothy 6:12 says, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith in order to lay hold on eternal life. So faith is something we have to fight for and it is not a belief alone.

#16. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. These types are said to be reprobate concerning the faith (See: 2 Timothy 3:8). So faith is not a belief alone in Jesus whereby one’s conduct is not in line with true godliness.

#17. James 2:1 says, “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” This means faith is not a belief alone in Jesus, but it also includes one’s actions in not neglecting to love the poor brethren while one shows favor to the rich brethren.

#18. Jude says:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:3-4).​

Verse 3 says that we are to contend for the faith and verse 4 says there are certain ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. Meaning, they are teaching that a person can sin and still be saved by God’s grace. But we are told to contend for the faith.

#19. Revelation 13:10 says,

“Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure
persecution patiently and remain faithful.”
(Revelation 13:10) (NLT).

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
(Revelation 13:10 (KJB).​

In other words, this is saying that believers can sometimes go to prison and or be killed as a part of the faith (or in being faithful, i.e. the faith).


#20. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone?

#21. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). The same word “justified" is used for both faith and works. Most Christians will not argue against how we are justified by faith in regards to salvation. But this same word “justified" is used in reference for works, too.

#22. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
For James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
(James 2:18).
​

James appears to criticize the person who has faith without works by saying show me your faith without works, and I will show my faith by my works. This means faith and works are tied together because works is how one shows their faith.

So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

​

 

[mailmandan]

Response to Bible Highlighter: I already covered many of these same passages of scripture that you and other works-salvationists twist and use to teach salvation by works. You are a broken record and maybe you believe that if you continue to beat me over the head with these same broken record arguments over and over again that you will convince me to "withdraw" my faith from trusting in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation and turn to works for salvation, but I can assure you that it's NEVER going to happen. My faith in Christ is too engrained one me and I'm too convinced. I will continue to TRUST IN JESUS CHRIST AS THE ALL SUFFICIENT MEANS OF MY SALVATION (all the glory to Jesus Christ) and that is my final answer.

I will now cover some of these verses above once again for the sake of others, then after that it's time for me to shake the dust off my shoes and move on. You have proven yourself time and time again to be thoroughly indoctrinated and unteachable. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth but only if you are willing to swallow your pride and accept the truth.

I often hear works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics) quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

A dead faith cannot save anyone because it's an empty profession of faith and not authentic faith, so "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith and such a person is saved by both faith and works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple! Too simple!

You need to remember that James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude is not describing saved Protestants here who teach a license to sin as your straw man argument contends.

In regards to Hebrews 12:14, for the umpteenth time, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). To be sanctified is to be "set apart/made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. (Acts 26:18; 1 Corinthians 6:11) This is not about your personal holiness self righteously qualifying you to see the Lord.

So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him through works of obedience after they have been saved through faith. In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

In regards to Romans 8:13, in context, Paul is contrasting believers with unbelievers. Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

That's all the time I have this morning and it never ceases to amaze me how you continuously quote the same verses over and over again that other works-salvationists who attend various false religions and cults quote to make the same points as well. Red flag there! Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel. Only then will the truth become clear and only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth. All I can do is plant seeds and hope that one day they will be watered. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Response to Bible Highlighter: I already covered many of these same passages of scripture that you and other works-salvationists twist and use to teach salvation by works. You are a broken record and maybe you believe that if you continue to beat me over the head with these same broken record arguments over and over again that you will convince me to "withdraw" my faith from trusting in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation and turn to works for salvation, but I can assure you that it's NEVER going to happen. My faith in Christ is too engrained one me and I'm too convinced. I will continue to TRUST IN JESUS CHRIST AS THE ALL SUFFICIENT MEANS OF MY SALVATION (all the glory to Jesus Christ) and that is my final answer.

I will now cover some of these verses above once again for the sake of others, then after that it's time for me to shake the dust off my shoes and move on. You have proven yourself time and time again to be thoroughly indoctrinated and unteachable. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth but only if you are willing to swallow your pride and accept the truth.

I often hear works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics) quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

A dead faith cannot save anyone because it's an empty profession of faith and not authentic faith, so "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith and such a person is saved by both faith and works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple! Too simple!

You need to remember that James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude is not describing saved Protestants here who teach a license to sin as your straw man argument contends.

In regards to Hebrews 12:14, for the umpteenth time, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). To be sanctified is to be "set apart/made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. (Acts 26:18; 1 Corinthians 6:11) This is not about your personal holiness self righteously qualifying you to see the Lord.

So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him through works of obedience after they have been saved through faith. In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

In regards to Romans 8:13, in context, Paul is contrasting believers with unbelievers. Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

That's all the time I have this morning and it never ceases to amaze me how you continuously quote the same verses over and over again that other works-salvationists who attend various false religions and cults quote to make the same points as well. Red flag there! Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel. Only then will the truth become clear and only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth. All I can do is plant seeds and hope that one day they will be watered. I will continue to pray for you.

It’s a red flag when you ignore verses like 1 John 1:7 in that it says that: “If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.”

You don’t believe the word IF in that walking in the light is conditional.
You don’t believe you have to actually walk in the light for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin, either. You just believe that if you trust in the finished work of the cross you get the blood to cleanse you. So you are just ignoring the Bible and holding to an imaginary belief that does not exist in Scripture.

I say this all in love of course.

May God’s peace shine upon you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Works For Salvation Verses (After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
   
   
2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
   
   
3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
   
   
6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
   
   
8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
   
   
10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
    
    
14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
    
    
15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
    
    
16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).
    
    
17. ”Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51).
    
    
18. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
    

 

[mailmandan]

It’s a red flag when you ignore verses like 1 John 1:7 in that it says that: “If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.”

You don’t believe the word IF in that walking in the light is conditional.
You don’t believe you have to actually walk in the light for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin, either. You just believe that if you trust in the finished work of the cross you get the blood to cleanse you. So you are just ignoring the Bible and holding to an imaginary belief that does not exist in Scripture.

I say this all in love of course.

May God’s peace shine upon you.

I did not ignore 1 John 1:7. See post #275. You seem to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture which is common among works-salvationists. Go back and read post #275 again. I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. IF is a confirmation here.

 

[mailmandan]

Works For Salvation Verses (After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
   
   
2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
   
   
3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
   
   
6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
   
   
8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
   
   
10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
    
    
14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
    
    
15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
    
    
16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).
    
    
17. ”Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51).
    
    
18. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

It's a real shame to see so much zeal wasted on UNBELIEF. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did not ignore 1 John 1:7. See post #275. You seem to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture which is common among works-salvationists. Go back and read post #275 again. I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. IF is a confirmation here.

Nope. If is a condition. If Rick shows up at Bob's house he will fix his bike.
You are ignoring the Bible yet again. You don't like the word If in 1 John 1:7 and so it must be changed or altered, ignored, etcetera. Another poster on this thread said the word If does not exist. You each have your own ways to deny the Bible. I just read it and believe it and I am not seeking to change 1 John 1:7 (unlike you). Therein lies the difference between us. You may be able to pull the wool over other people's eyes, but your unbelief in God's Word is not going to work with me. It certain will not work out for you come judgment day if you continue to disbelieve certain parts of the Bible (that you don't like). I say this not to wound you, but I say this to warn you in love (as if a bridge is out up ahead and you need to change course).

 

[robert derrick]

Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of New Testament commands on day one of our service to be saved (after we are saved by God’s grace)?

The charge has been claimed by Belief Alone Salvationists that you must obey all of the New Testament commands (or that you must reach a state of Sinless Perfection whereby you can never sin again) in order for salvation by obedience to be valid after you are saved by God’s grace. This is why many believe that all you have to do is just believe in Jesus for salvation or the finished work of the cross and you are good to enter the Kingdom.

I believe the Bible teaches that Sanctification is a process of living holy by the Spirit. It’s why Romans 8:13 says but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit you will live (i.e. live eternally). 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. These verses would not make any sense if we were automatically perfectly obeying all of the Lord’s commands in the New Testament on day one and we could never slip up on rare occasion and break God’s commands ever again. Granted, I am not against a new believer being able to do that. I would be for the brethren doing that since day one if we had strong Christian leaders training new converts to obey in all things right away. But that’s not always the reality for everyone. The thief on the cross was saved without works. But for those who live out their faith: I believe God gives us grace and time to learn His Word and to study it so as to know His will and to learn how to obey God.

Abraham did not even fulfill the command by God to take his son’s life. Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac and yet God was telling him to do that. God was testing Abraham’s loyalty. So it’s a willingness of our heart to obey God. For example: We are told to make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost teaching them all things that Christ commanded. Can you do that on day one after you are saved? What if you are in the mountains and there is nobody but you and the other person who led you to Jesus? Again, can you know of all of what Christ commands on day one? I imagine in some circumstances you could (if you had the right teachers). But is one not saved while they are still learning of those commands and they are not obeying them yet? This is why I believe there is grace. This grace is not a license for immorality of us thinking we can willfully sin. No, no. Most certainly not. We must seek to obey God in everything. Why? Because it is a part of our faith. It is our willingness to obey that I believe God is looking at before we can learn of that command and put into action. I say this because how many of you here are obeying the great commission in baptizing others in the name of Jesus (i.e. the name (singular) that represents the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit)? That’s a command by Jesus. Are you doing it? Are you not saved because you have not done so yet? I don’t believe so. I believe God gives us grace and time to do those things He desires of us. We should pray and ask God for help to obey Him in all things.

This also does not mean that we do not have to obey God as a part of God’s plan of salvation, either. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Which is a call of the gospel). The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But the CALL of the gospel is our Sanctification (living holy by the Spirit and putting away sin and learning to know how to obey God), and continuing to believe the doctrines and or truths in the Bible.

Note: I believe that if a Christian sins (like say looking upon a woman in lust, or not forgiving someone), they must confess and forsake that sin. Believers need to strive to seek to obey all of God’s commands. This is a part of living by faith. If we are not seeking to obey God as a part of the Kingdom, we are simply seeking to be our own lords and masters. God calls us to obedience and to pick up our cross and to deny ourselves. We have to count the cost and we have to be willing to give up all for the Lord Jesus. Again, this takes time for many of us to learn. There are many tests of our faith along the way. Our faith is not always a walk in the park. Jesus said, strive to enter the straight gate (Luke 13:24). So yes. We should be striving to obey the commands that come from the Lord Jesus and His followers in the New Testament. But I believe God gives us grace to get there. For grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10).

Jesus does expect us not to go on sinning as before from day 1, because He commands it:

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

No Christian needs to know all Scripture, in order to keep the faith of Jesus with a pure conscience.

This is where the law is instantly written in our hearts and minds, not that we can now recite them form a instant memory, but that we now know spiritually what is good and what is evil. Scripture also tells us that if we have doubts, then don't do anything to defile the conscience, until we have knowledge of our liberty in the Lord.

Afterall, I don't know what these hundreds of commandments are, and I'm not going to try and find out, but I know I am keeping them without sinning in works of the flesh. That's why the law is not written for the righteous. Only those seeking justification by the works of the law need to read and enumerate them, so that the letter is not broken, but the spirit remains filthy.

I have found what is good about the law of Christ being written specifically in Scripture, is so honest Christians won't be guilt-tripped by false ministers teaching men's commandments for that of Christ. If it ain't written as law by the apostles, it ain't law for me to obey, and I don't care what some super duper law-maker has to say about it.

Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

Abraham did obey the commandment of the Lord, which was to offer Isaac, and James confirms he did offer up Isaac.

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

God didn't tell Abraham to kill Isaac. And then Abraham obeyed God, when He commanded Abraham not to lay a hand on Isaac. And abraham did so in an instant by the voice of the Lord, just as he was about to plunge the knife.

I believe it's not so much are we to obey the commandment of the Lord and not sin from day one, but just how quickly we learn to do so, and not debate it in our minds. This would certainly require more knowledge of Scripture to know for certain what is and is not law of Christ.

But when it comes to obeying the voice of the Lord in personal matters, then that is what any newborn babe in Christ can do instantly by the Spirit, and no man can teach us that, but only Jesus Himself:

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Believers are to live up to the knowledge that they have obtained. There are 440 New Covenant commands in New Testament Scripture.

Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

For example: Have you obeyed this command?

Luke 14:12-14

“When you give a dinner (feast), call not your friends, nor your brethren, neither your kinsmen, nor your rich neighbors; unless they also bid you again, and you will be repaid. Instead, when you give a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And you shall be blessed; for they cannot repay you: and you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”​

How about this one?

Matthew 28:19-20

“Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen” ​

Do you believe that your Christian back then was able to go to all nations on day one of their service to God in order to teach them and baptize them?

How about this one?

2 Timothy 2:15

“Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”​

So can a believer know all truths of the Bible in studying on day one of their service?

Can we be approved unto God by studying His Word on day one service?
I know there are many things I did not know on day one when I was first saved by God's grace.

Yes, I believe the LORD JESUS calls us to obey ALL of His commands (and the commands of His followers) in the pages of the New Testament, but I believe it takes time to get there. Believers need to seek to obey God in everything. I believe that to keep His commands is a part of eternal life (After we are saved by God's grace). But God is not unreasonable in giving us the time, and resources to do all of what He requires of us. I mean, do you have money to travel to to all nations? Well, if you work the airlines that would be different. But many people have a hard time affording a ticket to another country. It's not impossible. We should strive to obey God to do what asks of us. But to say that on day one of our service to God we will be in all nations is just not feasible or realistic.

 

[mailmandan]

Nope. If is a condition. If Rick shows up at Bob's house he will fix his bike.
You are ignoring the Bible yet again.

IF is a confirmation of those who have or have not met these conditions found in 1 John 6-9.

Claim: 1 John 1:6 - If we say or claim that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So who walks in darkness and who walks in the light? Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light and ONLY those who are saved (children of God) are IN the light:

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light.

Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other. You abuse these verses to erroneously create a third camp of children of God who walk in darkness and do not practice the truth and you especially enjoy placing that label on Protestants and OSAS believers.

John is contrasting children of God with children of the devil, just as he does in 1 John 3:7-10 -- Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Yet you would disagree with John here and say that there are children of God who practice sin and not righteousness and lose their salvation. John disagrees.

*Now compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is connected with "children of the devil."

*Also in 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Notice how I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

You don't like the word If in 1 John 1:7 and so it must be changed or altered, ignored, etcetera.

I have no problem with the word IF and as I already showed you, walking in darkness and not practicing the truth (1 John 1:6) is a confirmation of being a child of the devil and walking in the light and practicing righteousness is a confirmation of being a child of God. IF confirms these positions. It's one or the either. There is no middle ground.

Another poster on this thread said the word If does not exist. You each have your own ways to deny the Bible. I just read it and believe it and I am not seeking to change 1 John 1:7 (unlike you).

Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah. I am not a poster who says the word IF does not exist. You change 1 John 1:7 to accommodate your doctrine of a third camp of Christians who fail to walk in the light and will lose their salvation because the blood of Christ no longer cleanses them from all sin in order to make it fit your false gospel of "type 2 works salvation."

Therein lies the difference between us. You may be able to pull the wool over other people's eyes, but your unbelief in God's Word is not going to work with me. It certain will not work out for you come judgment day if you continue to disbelieve certain parts of the Bible (that you don't like). I say this not to wound you, but I say this to warn you in love (as if a bridge is out up ahead and you need to change course).

Oh the irony and you really need to heed your own warning. Disbelieving your false teachings is not the same thing as disbelieving certain parts of the Bible. I just hope and pray that one day you will finally come to repent and believe the gospel. Then you will have eyes to see.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

IF is a confirmation of those who have or have not met these conditions found in 1 John 6-9.

Claim: 1 John 1:6 - If we say or claim that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

No. 1 John 1:6 is a condition all on it's own to describe people who walk in darkness.
1 John 1:7 is a separate condition for those who are to walk in the light.
Luke 13:24 says, Strive to enter the straight gate. But you don't believe these words by our Lord Jesus.

Your belief claims that you don't lose salvation when you sin. This means you can abide in sin and still be saved (because you don't believe sin can separate you from God by believing in Jesus), or you claim that you have sin according to 1 John 1:8 and yet you are still magically saved. This kind of belief means one is walking in darkness because one is justifying some level of sin under God's grace when Jesus taught that to look upon a woman in lust equates with our soul being in danger of hellfire (of which you don't believe).

So who walks in darkness and who walks in the light? Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light and ONLY those who are saved (children of God) are IN the light:

1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light.
John includes himself in this condition. If it was a guarantee that he would walk in the light, he would not use the IF word.
John would say instead: “Those of us who walk in the light WILL ALWAYS do so and the blood of Jesus will cleanse you from all sin.”
But that's not what John said. John said... IF we walk in the light. It's a condition.

If we confess our sins. ---- then God can forgive us (See: 1 John 1:9).
Again, this is a condition.
It is telling you the reader (saint) to confess so as to be forgiven.
It's not guaranteeing you that you will always confess your sins.
If that was the case, then the word IF would not be present.

I am not a poster who says the word IF does not exist.

But the point is that others do and they are on the same page with you on salvation.
This merely shows that each of you have your own tactics or strategies to undo what the Word of God says plainly (When you don't like what the Bible says).

 

[Behold]

Works For Salvation Verses (After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

If you didnt work for Salvation to receive it by FAITH, then to teach that you have to work to keep it, is not just a Theology, that lacks common sense, but, its really the culmination of ultimate Cross Rejection..

You are literally teaching...>"God started Salvation with Christ on the Cross, and now you have do more then Give God your faith, you have to try to keep it by doing works that are filthy rags that God would not accept to begin with..."

You are one messed up Theology looking for some approval, BibleHightlighter
Unbelievable.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it (Matthew 7:14).

Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationist churches fall under being the second largest branch of Christianity today (Coming in close to 1 billion adherents) with Catholicism being the 1st largest branch.

Jesus said STRIVE to enter the straight gate (Luke 13:24). When was the last time you heard a sermon on Luke 13:24 to strive to enter the straight gate involving your life? Chances are you did not hear this sermon because we are living in the last days as mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 (where men have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof).

Many today do not want Jesus to reign over them. But Jesus said,

“But bring here those enemies of mine,
who did not want me to reign over them,
and slay them before me.’ ”
~ (Luke 19:27) (NKJV).
​

I can only imagine the horror that many will face when they realize this truth of Scripture when it will be too late at the Judgment. I say this not because I am better or that I am seeking some kind of approval by men. I am nothing. Christ is everything. The idea of taking credit for what God’s Word says and or men clapping their hands by anything I do for the Lord (by His working) makes me want to puke. I realize that all good comes by the power of the working of God done through the believer. I realize it is only by God’s grace that we can have the ability to even do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). All praise and glory should be given to our Lord Jesus in all things. It’s why the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus.

I can only encourage the true good Berean to look at the verses I have presented here and pray over them asking the Spirit for the understanding instead of seeking out men for the understanding.

It may be more comforting to you to do some level of evil under God’s grace or to be unfruitful (on some level) under God’s grace, but what we may find comforting is not the reality of what the Word of God actually says.

Jesus warned about how certain sins can destroy our souls (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37). I would rather be overly cautious with my soul in protecting it and be saved vs. having a cavalier view on salvation (in that I am being overconfident about my salvation at the expense of Scripture).

I hope this helps somebody today.

May God’s good ways shine upon you-all.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

B.L. Highlighter.

 

[Behold]

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it (Matthew 7:14).

1.) "few that find it"... means as compared to the total number of people who have existed since the Cross was raised, = the number of born again as compared to the total number of HUMANITY, is the"few that find it".

2.) "the Narrow way".....is Jesus Himself who is the "straight Gate", as Jesus told you "I AM THE WAY.."

3.) "THE" way".. .is exactly ONE way only.... and no other way does God offer. John 14:6

4.) So, "the WAY"< is a very very narrow way, when compared to a world that is filled with RELIGIONS that all pretend to be "A" way, to God., that God rejects.

5.) There is only ONE. "WAY"....and Its Jesus, and that makes Christ THE "narrow way", vs a "broad way" as compared to all other religions.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

The idea of Luke 13:24 is that we are to STRIVE to enter the straight gate.
In context, we read this:

“Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.” (Luke 13:25-26).​

So these types knocking on the door of the Lord are NOT the false gods of other religions.

#1. They are saying… Lord, Lord… open unto us.
#2. These are believers in Jesus because they are claiming to have eaten an drunken in His presence, etcetera.

So this narrows the sphere of the context of our Lord’s discussion to Christianity.
Jesus is saying narrow is the way involving those within Christianity.

Jesus says STRIVE to enter the straight gate.
Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism is the exact opposite of concept of “Striving to enter the straight gate.”

If one starts talking about striving to enter the narrow gate (into the Kingdom), the Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist will take that as works salvation or legalism.

But little do they realize that this does involve working out our salvation with fear and trembling according to Philippians 2:12. Of course the Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist does not really believe all of the Bible. They only cherry pick it to defend their false “sin and still be saved type belief.”

 

[Behold]

To all:

The idea of Luke 13:24 is that we are to STRIVE to enter the straight gate.
”

The believer does not STRIVE to enter into a relationship with God that is based on '""the GIFT of Salvation."""
Now... Heretics, especially those who are religious but lost, who can only post about doing works and losing salvation, have not understood that the "Straight Gate" is Jesus on the Cross.
FAITH is what God accepts to give the Gift of Salvation to the Believer.
The STRIVER, the SELF RIGHTEOUS Egotist, the faker, would try to enter God's Heaven by SELF...

These heretics pretend that they can offer their WORKS to God as if their works can EQUAL the Holiness of Christ's Blood and Death, regarding VALUE.
This PRIDE Of the Legalistic Heretic, causes them to never give any Credit to The Cross, and never Give Credit to Jesus, for the Salvation that HE ALONE earned by His Shed Blood and Death.
Now, if you embarrass one of the Cross Rejecting Heretics on a Forum, they will usually respond and suddenly post about the Cross and Son of God...
But, this never lasts, as this is FAKE, as they are FAKE.... and soon the REAL HERETIC< the self saver, the "here are my works, so, God you better take them", will show up soon enough about 3 posts later, and then of course they continue on their same dark Cross rejecting course.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

What was the reason why these types in Luke 13 were told to depart from the Lord?

Did Jesus tell them that they did not believe on the finished work of the cross or that they did not believe in Him alone for salvation?

No.

Luke 13:27

“But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are;
depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.”​

We see a similar thing in Matthew 7:22-23. But Jesus makes it clear by the context in Matthew 7:26-27 that the reason why they are told to depart from Him for working iniquity was because they did not do what He said.

Matthew 7:26-27

“And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
​

Jesus compares those who do not do what He says to a fool who built his house upon the sand when a storm (with a flood) came, great was the fall of that house.

So a worker of iniquity is one who sins and does not do what Jesus says. This sounds EXACTLY like a condemnation of the “Sin and Still Be Saved” crowd who are secretly in disguise as the Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism Camp (With some justifying lots of sin and others justifying lesser amounts of sin saying they don’t lose salvation when they sin, etcetera). Jesus warned about how sin can destroy your soul in Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, etcetera. These people don’t believe the words of Jesus.

Don’t fall for the deceptions of those who want you to think sin is no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten. Follow Jesus and don’t justify sin that can destroy your soul. Most Christians today believe you can sin and still be saved. Don’t listen to them if you truly value your soul. Listen to the words of Jesus Himself. That is your confidence. Listen to Jesus. Don’t listen to the big crowd of Christianity inviting you to join in the comfortable pool of sin. This pool is full of poison and sharks that will devour you in the end.

Stay true to Jesus.
Follow the narrow way.

May God’s truth shine unto those who are willing to hear it.