Does God kill off believers

[logabe]

If you are believing, you are also obeying. I don't think you understand that.
If you are obeying, you will be working. I'm sure you don't understand that.

You still have not answered any of these questions:

How is an adulterer going to be the "salt of the earth"?
How is a liar or a thief going to be the "light of the world"?
What do you think it means to "overcome"?
Why did Jesus tell give us instructions on things like how to treat our enemies, or how we should minister to those who are poor, hungry, without decent clothing, or who are sick or in prison?
What did He mean by telling us about the Two Great Commandments?
Why did He give us a "New Commandment"?
Why did His model prayer include a plea to His Father to "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"?
Why did He warn us to fear Him Who could destroy both body and soul in hell?
And, ATP...why did He tell His Apostles to "Teach them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you"?

He said all of them things and more so we could INHERIT the Kingdom of God in the 1st Resurrection. In order
to qualify for the "better resurrection", ( Heb. 11:35) we have to be taught the things that please God. Loving your
enemies is a character of God, so when a person can forgive their enemy, God is well pleased with that individual,
because He knows how hard it is for a person to allow the Spirit to take over and forgive someone who has did them
wrong.

That person has just overcome in that area of his life. Now, he/she must maintain that level of spiritual maturity and
continue to grow in grace, until the Lord comes or he/she goes back to the Lord through physical death. As I said in
the last post that Paul said, he must press toward the "High Calling" of God in Christ Jesus.

What does that mean? Well, it goes back to the "better resurrection" that Paul spoke of in the book of Hebrews. By
allowing God to train us through trial and tribulation, we become candidates for inheriting the kingship and priesthood
that comes by obeying through the things we suffer during our lifetime, just like Jesus did (Heb. 5:8-10).

8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He
suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the
source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of
Melchizedek.

Jesus the man, is our pattern of how to become an overcomer. We must learn obedience in order to be chosen by God,
to become a king and a priest at the order of Melchizedek. This priesthood has replaced the old levitical priesthood that
displeased God by disobeying His Word in the Old Testament.

Most Christians want INHERIT the 1st resurrection. What? Who do you think you are? I am an imperfect Christian that
is pressing toward the High Calling in God. Not that I have attained this calling, because many are called, but few are
chosen to this calling. This calling is special, because the Overcomer will be blessed and holy. In other words, if you
Overcome... you will put on immortality, which will remove the death sentence that you have upon you right now. Not
only that, but you will be a king and a priest under the leadership of Jesus Christ that will change and restore the creation
back to it's beauty. Wow!!!

Are you ready to please God NOW!!!

If your answer is NO, then I have good news for you. God still want leave you are forsake you. What He will do is put you
to sleep for a thousand years and raise you up to change you, whether you like it are not. But I assure you that you will
love it. My question is, why wait a thousand years? Let's learn obedience now, so we can experience the holiness and
blessedness that comes through faith in the Word of God. Rev. 20:5-6 says,

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were
completed. This is the first resurrection. (the better resurrection)
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over
these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and
of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[ATP]

Most Christians want INHERIT the 1st resurrection. What? Who do you think you are? I am an imperfect Christian that
is pressing toward the High Calling in God. Not that I have attained this calling, because many are called, but few are
chosen to this calling.

This calling is special, because the Overcomer will be blessed and holy. In other words, if you
Overcome... you will put on immortality, which will remove the death sentence that you have upon you right now. Not
only that, but you will be a king and a priest under the leadership of Jesus Christ that will change and restore the creation
back to it's beauty. Wow!!!

This is false. Anyone who is born again will inherit the first resurrection. To overcome is to believe logabe..what are we believing in sir?...

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Dave24]

Sorry ATP i have to disagree, the KJ ...1 Cor 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit (pneuma) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".

Like i said before looking at the rest of the verses it would most likely be that "the" spirit referred to here would be God's spirit. In most cases pneuma refers to God's spirit.
It would anyhow be unlikely that if a wicked person is to be handed to satan for destruction that "any part" of him would be saved later!!

What is important here is the fact that the congregation needed to be kept "clean" in order for them to receive God's approval/spirit, because if God were to remove His spirit/approval then it would be a disaster at judgement. If they allowed such a person or people to continue the terrible sin among them then all of them would face destruction.

Again i think you are twisting things again here to somehow prove your osas theory...

 

[lforrest]

Sorry ATP i have to disagree, the KJ ...1 Cor 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit (pneuma) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".

Like i said before looking at the rest of the verses it would most likely be that "the" spirit referred to here would be God's spirit. In most cases pneuma refers to God's spirit.
It would anyhow be unlikely that if a wicked person is to be handed to satan for destruction that "any part" of him would be saved later!!

What is important here is the fact that the congregation needed to be kept "clean" in order for them to receive God's approval/spirit, because if God were to remove His spirit/approval then it would be a disaster at judgement. If they allowed such a person or people to continue the terrible sin among them then all of them would face destruction.

Again i think you are twisting things again here to somehow prove your osas theory...

Why would the Holy Spirit ever need to be saved himself?
More likely this verse concerns the spirit of the man. God, by his omniscience, knew harsh measures were required. So this man must have repented before the end; and he did not lose the Holy Spirit.

 

[logabe]

This is false. Anyone who is born again will inherit the first resurrection. To overcome is to believe logabe..what are we believing in sir?...

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

ATP... I think you need to go back to Rev. chapter 2 & 3, so Jesus can explain to you the
requirements of being an Overcomer. Jesus was speaking to all believers in these two
chapters and this is what He said... Rev. 2:13-14-16,

13 I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you
hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days
of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among
you, where Satan dwells.
14 But I have a few things against you
16 Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I
will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

Jesus was speaking to all believers @ the church @ Pergamos, warning them that He
would remove their birthright if they continue to cast stumbling blocks before the
children of Israel. In other words, they would be just like Esau who gave up his birthright
for a bowl of soup.

You said, anyone who is born again will inherit the 1st Resurrection. I agree, but you must
understand that no one has been born again, yet. That should get some ugly post, but hang
in there for a moment.

I was @ a gathering years ago and a preacher spoke for about 2 hours on how we didn't need
anything, because God has given us everything we need. When he was finished, I went and ask
him was he sure he didn't need nothing else. He assured me he didn't. I told him I would like to
see him walk through the wall without using the door, then sit down and talk to me. I told him that
I would listen to everything he had to say. Well, you know the rest of the story. My point is, God
has begotten us, which means, when we believe His Word, that seed (sperma GK) impregnates
us, which causes an embryo to be formed within us.

We can call what in not as though it is, but we will not be born until we put on immortality and
death will have no more power over us. We can then walk through walls and sit down and teach
the people. But @ present, I have death in my members that must be mortified daily by God's Spirit,
so I can become an Overcomer and take part in the 1st Resurrection. Mathew 20:16 says,

16 Many are called but few are chosen.

That scripture has been falsely used for so many years. Probably millions have been exposed to the
false interpretation of this scripture where false teachers have put billions in hell for the past few
centuries, because they didn't understand it's meaning. Let me explain.

God does the choosing and He does that according to His Word. His Word is His character. In Gen. 1:26,
God said, let us make man in our image and likeness, and let them have dominion and be fruitful and
multiply. He has been doing that for the last 6 thousand years. As a person obeys the scripture after being
begotten of God, he/she begins to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which puts he/she
in position to be chosen of God. It's not the person that does the change, but it's his obedience to the Word
that God is looking for when it is time to choose His Government.

There will be a group of Overcomers that will obey God's Word and be born in the 1st Resurrection, but we
are experiencing that qualification @ this very moment. God has called us (begotten us) out of Egypt to begin
our journey to the Promised Land. Will we obey or will we tell God that the giants are way to big, so we can't
inherit the land, although God has promised it to us. You are making God's choice everyday you live, whether
in faith or in fear. God is looking for someone that will choose faith in everything that He says. Rom. 8:23 says,

23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the
Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our
adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[KingJ]

As I understand it he didn't die in his sin. The congregation turned him over to Satan before that could happen. Perhaps the suffering on his deathbed was intended to lead him to repentance before the end. It also carried a strong message to the church about the seriousness of sin.

If he continued as he had been doing up to his eventual sudden death without having repented, then he would not inherit eternal life.

There is a debate as to whether or not those mentioned here by Paul to have their flesh handed over to the devil were even saved. 1 Cor 5:11 is clear that Paul distinguishes between those that ''claim to be Christians'' vs those that don't. As opposed to saved vs unsaved. Can a saved person ever commit ongoing / unrepentant incest?

 

[KingJ]

Acts 5:1-5
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

As BG suggested, this would be the closest biblical example...

Yet their eternal condition is never mentioned in the text.

This also came to my mind first. I don't believe they were ever saved though. Paul always called all in church brethren / those professing to be saved. He never isolated saved and unsaved among those professing to be saved. Paul is hence partially to blame for the blur on OSAS vs Arminianism .

 

[KingJ]

Is there any stories in the Bible about God killing off believers because of too much sin.

No.

The closest we can come to it is perhaps those worshiping the golden calf having their name blotted out. They would be on par with believers as their names were in the Lambs book of life.

 

[KingJ]

Correct, our salvation depends on Jesus Christ and not of my filthy works. Good, you're learning.

ATP you need to understand that there are filthy works and then there are filthy works.

EVERYONE was in death OT. ONLY those that loved evil were in Hades. Those that had sin and hated it were in AB. Jesus took those in AB to heaven. Salvation they / us have nothing to do with. Getting to AB...they had everything to do with.

 

[KingJ]

As I have said before the debate of OSAS vs Armeniasm is pointless as both parties agree that if someone continues in mortal sins their home is hell.

 

[KingJ]

I have a theory with Jews having their names in the Lambs book of life. My theory is that all their names were there initially. As they chose death, God blotted them out. As opposed to gentiles who need to get their names there.

 

[Barrd]

This also came to my mind first. I don't believe they were ever saved though. Paul always called all in church brethren / those professing to be saved. He never isolated saved and unsaved among those professing to be saved. Paul is hence partially to blame for the blur on OSAS vs Arminianism .

That could be because Paul never heard of either of these ideas...

 

[ewq1938]

I have a theory with Jews having their names in the Lambs book of life. My theory is that all their names were there initially. As they chose death, God blotted them out.

It would make much more sense that those who "choose life" were written into the book, and anyone that fell away and chose differently would be blotted out.

As opposed to gentiles who need to get their names there.

Everyone needs to get their names there.

 

[ATP]

16 Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I
will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

Rom 8:35 NIV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

As I have said before the debate of OSAS vs Armeniasm is pointless as both parties agree that if someone continues in mortal sins their home is hell.

If death can no longer separate the elect from God Rom 8:38, and the lake of fire is the second death Rev 20:14, then God a liar.

 

[ATP]

Sorry ATP i have to disagree, the KJ ...1 Cor 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit (pneuma) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".

Like i said before looking at the rest of the verses it would most likely be that "the" spirit referred to here would be God's spirit. In most cases pneuma refers to God's spirit.
It would anyhow be unlikely that if a wicked person is to be handed to satan for destruction that "any part" of him would be saved later!!

What is important here is the fact that the congregation needed to be kept "clean" in order for them to receive God's approval/spirit, because if God were to remove His spirit/approval then it would be a disaster at judgement. If they allowed such a person or people to continue the terrible sin among them then all of them would face destruction.

Again i think you are twisting things again here to somehow prove your osas theory...

I don't think Paul goes into saying who this man is, but either way this man broke fellowship with the church 1 Cor 5:2 NIV. Fellowship and relationship are two different categories with God.

 

[KingJ]

If death can no longer separate the elect from God Rom 8:38, and the lake of fire is the second death Rev 20:14, then God a liar.

God in His omniscience and wisdom does not make mistakes. To become a Christian God first judges the sincerity of our heart and mind at a level we cannot imagine Jer 17:9-10 and then gives us a much needed revelation of a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago being the Messiah / God of the universe 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17.

The only way that OSAS is feasible is if the saved individual is never able to go back into unrepentant mortal sins. It is hard to read Paul's teaching and miss all the warnings he gives about losing salvation. This is not to say he is actually saying we can lose our salvation. As I have said he constantly spoke to us all as those professing to be saved. He tells us all to go and use our working brain to judge ourselves harshly that we be 'in-Christ'. Making it clear that his teaching pointed in the direction of us not ever to be 100% certain that we have made it / are saved until we have actually made it 1 Cor 10:12. OSAS can be true / knowable by God but never us. Personally I am not sure why anyone would push it except to accomodate a sin...?

 

[KingJ]

That could be because Paul never heard of either of these ideas...

Yes lol. A working brain can deduce that someone continuing in a sin God ordained OT as deserving death penalty....will not be in heaven at all!!

 

[KingJ]

It would make much more sense that those who "choose life" were written into the book, and anyone that fell away and chose differently would be blotted out.

Yes agreed. The case with the Jews worshiping the golden calf having their names blotted out is definitely the achilles heel of OSAS.

 

[ATP]

God in His omniscience and wisdom does not make mistakes. To become a Christian God first judges the sincerity of our heart and mind at a level we cannot imagine Jer 17:9-10 and then gives us a much needed revelation of a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago being the Messiah / God of the universe 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17.

The only way that OSAS is feasible is if the saved individual is never able to go back into unrepentant mortal sins. It is hard to read Paul's teaching and miss all the warnings he gives about losing salvation. This is not to say he is actually saying we can lose our salvation. As I have said he constantly spoke to us all as those professing to be saved. He tells us all to go and use our working brain to judge ourselves harshly that we be 'in-Christ'. Making it clear that his teaching pointed in the direction of us not ever to be 100% certain that we have made it / are saved until we have actually made it 1 Cor 10:12. OSAS can be true / knowable by God but never us. Personally I am not sure why anyone would push it except to accomodate a sin...?

1 Cor 10:12 NIV is about temptation. It has nothing to do with losing salvation. We are tempted every day KingJ.

1 Cor 10:13 NIV No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

Yes agreed. The case with the Jews worshiping the golden calf having their names blotted out is definitely the achilles heel of OSAS.

Well, not really. There was no seal of God in the OT...John 6:27 NIV, 1 Cor 9:2 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV.

 

[KingJ]

Well, not really. There was no seal of God in the OT...John 6:27 NIV, 1 Cor 9:2 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV.

So God was partial? Those in the OT who hated sin and repented just like us...but fell into idolatry...were then forgotten and destined for hell? When God says He will 'not turn away' any Psalm 51:17 person OT, He forgot the disclaimer of His seal in Christ?

The seal is evidence of God's omniscience. God has known OT and NT who are His. Not from birth, but after judging the decision made to follow Him, harshly.

So I agree with you NT that if we have the seal of Jesus we are en route to heaven. But the two issues I feel you are not facing is 1. that someone who is sealed, is incapable of continuing in a mortal sin. 2. Only God knows.

Paul never professed to know / distinguish between saved and unsaved based on their belief, inner feeling, emotions or church attendance. Jesus said we will be known by our works. Paul urged us to judge ourselves in fear and trembling.

So what is your end game? Do you want people to feel content in their salvation even if they are unrepentant mortal sinners?