Does God Love Everyone

[aspen]

Aspen to answer your first question. It's NO! I don't get excited about people being sent to the lake of fire. My wish would be for everyone to turn to the Lord, and accept Jesus. The world would be a better place. It truly saddens me that people will not turn in repentance. I have family members who won't accept Jesus, who don't even believe in Him. So I'm greatly sadden by that notion.

I am glad and relieved to hear that you are saddened by the idea that God may hate some people - it is a truly horrific idea!

People need to know there is a punishment a waiting the sinner.

Why? So they can be scared into the Kingdom? Being scared into the Kingdom is just as fake as relying on doctrine or externalize religion to save you.

By telling someone God loves everyone gives a false sense of security.

Does telling children that their parents love them give them a false sense of security? On the contrary, Attachment theory suggests that children who are not constantly shown love by their caretakers are at a great risk of developing insecure attachments, which often develop into personality disorders later, like Narcissistic, Borderline, Schizoid Personality Disorders. Frightening people is not a good way to endear the love of people - God knows that. Also God does not depend on evil to bring about good.

Yes I agree with God's message of love,

Awesome!

but I also believe God's message about His wrath, that will be bestowed on this earth. If people don't understand the consequences of their actions, how would they turn from them.

God's wrath is reserved for those who will not humble their hearts (be vulnerable enough) to allow God to lead them back to becoming fully human (we were originally created for the sole purpose of loving God and our neighbor). This can only happen when people realize it is safe enough to trust God and dare to return His love. It is my experience that people who are scared into the Kingdom are only ready to give God their minds - everything they do for Him is guarded and double checked to make sure they are not making Him angry - that is not the relationship Jesus had with the Father, which He modeled for us.

Everyone speaks of God's love, but no one wants to speak on His wrath.

Can you blame them? If you are promoting a loving Father, who wants to justify and sanctify your heart, in order for you to love Him and others, as you were created to do - God's wrath become merely an event that will happen, rather than something to fear.

God's love is conditional.

The Bible does not teach this idea. God desires ALL people to be saved - that means even the hard-hearted who will be in Hell. The division between God and people in Hell is totally due to the failure of the people who will not allow Christ to sanctify their hearts in order to allow them to return God's love - it does not change how God feels about them, individually.

If you repent and do what He says, He loves you. If your disobedient, and will not repent, He hates you.

So, what you are saying is that God who claims to love us with agape (unconditional love) is unwilling to love us as much as our Earthly parents? God is bigger than this idea, for sure.

If you had a child; you will love that child with conditions.

Not unless there is some sort of psychological problem with the parent. No one with children would ever say they hated their children because of their behavior. Even Jeffrey Dalmer's parents loved him.

You love your child because that child came from you. But if the child grew up, and decided to disrespect you every chance he got, by cursing you, slapping you, stealing from you, murdering someone you loved......ect... You will no longer love that child.

This statement tells me that you do not have children. Ineffective parents who try to ignore the behavior and love their child; effective parents would put up boundaries and still love their child.

There is no love without condition.

What about agape love?

I agree God want no one to burn forever...but that is an individual decision we all have to make.

Although, it is not that cut and dry. God is going to lovingly give everyone the chance to accept His justification and sanctification - only the truly proud will refuse Him and who knows what God's love will fail to do in their desperate cases? Even with these lost souls, I lean more on the side of God's mercy than on the side of His wrath.

If God truly hated all the sinners you claim that He hates, you would surely have to include David and even Moses - both were murders and certainly disobedient. Yet, David was a man after God's own heart and Moses was the most humble man on the face of the Earth according to Numbers 12:3.

I also agree with your last statement."rather it is to start praying for transformation through sanctification and get out there and start practicing love with a humble, vulnerable heart".

Yes, I believe this is working out our salvation by practicing the love Jesus is teaching us everyday.

I am enjoying this discussion

Peace

 

[Xanderoc]

Aspen to answer your first question. It's NO! I don't get excited about people being sent to the lake of fire. My wish would be for everyone to turn to the Lord, and accept Jesus. The world would be a better place. It truly saddens me that people will not turn in repentance. I have family members who won't accept Jesus, who don't even believe in Him. So I'm greatly sadden by that notion.

I am glad and relieved to hear that you are saddened by the idea that God may hate some people - it is a truly horrific idea!

People need to know there is a punishment a waiting the sinner.

Why? So they can be scared into the Kingdom? Being scared into the Kingdom is just as fake as relying on doctrine or externalize religion to save you.

By telling someone God loves everyone gives a false sense of security.

Does telling children that their parents love them give them a false sense of security? On the contrary, Attachment theory suggests that children who are not constantly shown love by their caretakers are at a great risk of developing insecure attachments, which often develop into personality disorders later, like Narcissistic, Borderline, Schizoid Personality Disorders. Frightening people is not a good way to endear the love of people - God knows that. Also God does not depend on evil to bring about good.

Yes I agree with God's message of love,

Awesome!

but I also believe God's message about His wrath, that will be bestowed on this earth. If people don't understand the consequences of their actions, how would they turn from them.

God's wrath is reserved for those who will not humble their hearts (be vulnerable enough) to allow God to lead them back to becoming fully human (we were originally created for the sole purpose of loving God and our neighbor). This can only happen when people realize it is safe enough to trust God and dare to return His love. It is my experience that people who are scared into the Kingdom are only ready to give God their minds - everything they do for Him is guarded and double checked to make sure they are not making Him angry - that is not the relationship Jesus had with the Father, which He modeled for us.

Everyone speaks of God's love, but no one wants to speak on His wrath.

Can you blame them? If you are promoting a loving Father, who wants to justify and sanctify your heart, in order for you to love Him and others, as you were created to do - God's wrath become merely an event that will happen, rather than something to fear.

God's love is conditional.

The Bible does not teach this idea. God desires ALL people to be saved - that means even the hard-hearted who will be in Hell. The division between God and people in Hell is totally due to the failure of the people who will not allow Christ to sanctify their hearts in order to allow them to return God's love - it does not change how God feels about them, individually.

If you repent and do what He says, He loves you. If your disobedient, and will not repent, He hates you.

So, what you are saying is that God who claims to love us with agape (unconditional love) is unwilling to love us as much as our Earthly parents? God is bigger than this idea, for sure.

If you had a child; you will love that child with conditions.

Not unless there is some sort of psychological problem with the parent. No one with children would ever say they hated their children because of their behavior. Even Jeffrey Dalmer's parents loved him.

You love your child because that child came from you. But if the child grew up, and decided to disrespect you every chance he got, by cursing you, slapping you, stealing from you, murdering someone you loved......ect... You will no longer love that child.

This statement tells me that you do not have children. Ineffective parents who try to ignore the behavior and love their child; effective parents would put up boundaries and still love their child.

There is no love without condition.

What about agape love?

I agree God want no one to burn forever...but that is an individual decision we all have to make.

Although, it is not that cut and dry. God is going to lovingly give everyone the chance to accept His justification and sanctification - only the truly proud will refuse Him and who knows what God's love will fail to do in their desperate cases? Even with these lost souls, I lean more on the side of God's mercy than on the side of His wrath.

If God truly hated all the sinners you claim that He hates, you would surely have to include David and even Moses - both were murders and certainly disobedient. Yet, David was a man after God's own heart and Moses was the most humble man on the face of the Earth according to Numbers 12:3.

I also agree with your last statement."rather it is to start praying for transformation through sanctification and get out there and start practicing love with a humble, vulnerable heart".

Yes, I believe this is working out our salvation by practicing the love Jesus is teaching us everyday.

I am enjoying this discussion

Peace

Aspen first of all I have 4 beautiful chldren who I love dearly. But if my children who I loved dearly grew up and did all the things I said in the OP, well then my love for them would diminish. I would love them because they are mine, but In my heart I would hate who they have become. In essence, hate them!! What is the definition of agape love? Agape is one of several Greek words translated into English as love, one which became particularly appropriated in Christian theology as the love of God or Christ for mankind. (pronounced /ˈæɡəpiː/[sup][1][/sup] and sometimes /əˈɡɑːpeɪ/ after the Classical Greek agápē; Modern Greek: αγάπη /aˈɣapi/). Many have thought that this word represents divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love. Although the word does not have specific religious connotation, the word has been used by a variety of contemporary and ancient sources, including Biblical authors and Christian authors. So no one really know what agape means. Scripture show God's love comes with condition. All the scripture to prove that point are in the OP.

 

[aspen]

Aspen first of all I have 4 beautiful chldren who I love dearly. But if my children who I loved dearly grew up and did all the things I said in the OP, well then my love for them would diminish. I would love them because they are mine, but In my heart I would hate who they have become. In essence, hate them!!

But you children are more than their behavior! God looked passed A&E's behavior in the Garden; regardless of the fact that His love did not stop the natural consequences of their sin from effecting their hearts' ability to return His love.

God does not call us to a higher standard than He is willing or capable of following. We are called to love the sinner, but hate the sin - we can expect nothing less from God. Jesus even compares God's love to a parent's love when He tells his disciples in Luke 11[sup]11[/sup]"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[sup][f][/sup] a fish, will give him a snake instead? [sup]12[/sup]Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? [sup]13[/sup]If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" The request is not conditional!

What is the definition of agape love? Agape is one of several Greek words translated into English as love, one which became particularly appropriated in Christian theology as the love of God or Christ for mankind. (pronounced /ˈæɡəpiː/[sup][1][/sup] and sometimes /əˈɡɑːpeɪ/ after the Classical Greek agápē; Modern Greek: αγάπη /aˈɣapi/). Many have thought that this word represents divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love. Although the word does not have specific religious connotation, the word has been used by a variety of contemporary and ancient sources, including Biblical authors and Christian authors. So no one really know what agape means. Scripture show God's love comes with condition. All the scripture to prove that point are in the OP.

Fair enough. All the words in the Bible belong to their own language. This is why word studies can only take a person so far - words are reductionistic. Agape is the highest form of the word love that human being have ever created. If you continued reading the wikipedia definition of agape you will notice that the Bible uses it to define God. If God is love and the Alpha and the Omega - He is never ending!!.

Peace

 

[Rach1370]

Hey, here's a question....

Xander said:
"People need to know there is a punishment a waiting the sinner."

Uhhh, you are aware aren't you that we are ALL sinners? Even Christians who love Jesus and try to repent of their sins, go on sinning, we are fallen.

So were does that leave us? Forgiven by Christ!
As far as the love of God...I really don't think its entirely wise for any human to state how, why or to what extent God can and does feel, for anything. God is infinite, and while He shares things with us through His Word, he is in entirety unknowable. Do we really want a God who is limited, defined by humans and must follow word definitions...even if they are in Greek??!
God must hate sin, that is true, but our God is so awesome and loving that He sent His own Son to die for us, that we might have everlasting life! Wow!
Perhaps instead of deciding who God can and can't love, maybe we could just tell more people how awesome He is, and that would help all 'round!!

 

[jiggyfly]

The problem that remains is that man refuses to admit to the eternal consequences of sin.

Ahh, so you must not believe that the cross was the execution of God's judgment against sin.

 

[SaberTruth]

Aspen, excellent responses.

General observations:

I would agree that the various Greek words for "love" had lost their hard differences in meaning by the 1st century, but I wouldn't say they never had any differences in the NT. In Jesus' famous exchange with Peter, I still see significance in Jesus' use of phileo the third time, though some scholars dismiss it. So while a general case can be made for no particular significance to agape, I don't believe all NT writers used the various words without distinction. Personally, I think agape in the NT at least hinted at "devotion" or loyalty, a more "intellectual" love, while phileo leaned more toward "friendship".

And I noticed that almost all the references for God hating sinners come from the OT, particularly the poetry of the Psalms wherein Hebrew hyperbole is prevalent. Very interesting.

I think it's a false dilemma to say that if God sends someone to hell then He must not love them. Jesus wept over Jerusalem shortly before His execution at their hands, after all, and someone mentioned John 3:16 too. But I think of hell as "the place of 'not God'", the place God made where His presence would not be felt or operating. If people refuse to reconcile with Him, where else can they spend eternity away from Him? And if someone is banished or exiled, do we have to hate them, or can we be reluctantly separating them from ourselves for our own safety?

As for the belief in universalism, this is clearly not supported by scripture. I have a small online book that discusses the essentials of salvation, called Reconciled: Finding Our Way Back to Jesus, which might help explain why I believe Jesus had to die.

 

[jiggyfly]

I think it's a false dilemma to say that if God sends someone to hell then He must not love them. Jesus wept over Jerusalem shortly before His execution at their hands, after all, and someone mentioned John 3:16 too. But I think of hell as "the place of 'not God'", the place God made where His presence would not be felt or operating. If people refuse to reconcile with Him, where else can they spend eternity away from Him? And if someone is banished or exiled, do we have to hate them, or can we be reluctantly separating them from ourselves for our own safety?

As for the belief in universalism, this is clearly not supported by scripture. I have a small online book that discusses the essentials of salvation, called Reconciled: Finding Our Way Back to Jesus, which might help explain why I believe Jesus had to die.

Gotta couple of questions for you Saber. Are you sure that hell is a place where God is not? What do you understand universalism to be?

 

[SaberTruth]

Gotta couple of questions for you Saber. Are you sure that hell is a place where God is not? What do you understand universalism to be?

I'm philosophically (logically) sure that hell is a place where God is not, in the light of all else I understand to be true about God and justice and free will. On the simplest level, if heaven is "the presence of God", then hell must be "the absence of God". If people reject God and thus don't wish to be reconciled with Him, then there must be a place for them to spend eternity, and that place must be where they are not with God. That's just what makes sense to me.

My understanding of universalism is first of all that there are variations, just as with any other belief system. But overall they share the belief that God will not impose eternal suffering on anyone (some even extending this to Satan). Yet scripturally, whatever "eternal" means about torment it also means about life (see my article on Mt. 25:46). So if there is no eternal suffering then there is also no eternal life. Do you have a specific universalist belief in mind?

 

[tomwebster]

I am not sure if any of you have children or not, I expect some of you do. Anyway, do you love your children, all of your children? God loves all of His children. Do you like every thing your child does? Probably not! God is a loving God, but He is also a Holy God and a just God and when His children disobey He will punish, sometimes that means He has to destroy some of them.

 

[Xanderoc]

I am not sure if any of you have children or not, I expect some of you do. Anyway, do you love your children, all of your children? God loves all of His children. Do you like every thing your child does? Probably not! God is a loving God, but He is also a Holy God and a just God and when His children disobey He will punish, sometimes that means He has to destroy some of them.

AMEN, finally someone who understands.

 

[jiggyfly]

I'm philosophically (logically) sure that hell is a place where God is not, in the light of all else I understand to be true about God and justice and free will. On the simplest level, if heaven is "the presence of God", then hell must be "the absence of God". If people reject God and thus don't wish to be reconciled with Him, then there must be a place for them to spend eternity, and that place must be where they are not with God. That's just what makes sense to me.

My understanding of universalism is first of all that there are variations, just as with any other belief system. But overall they share the belief that God will not impose eternal suffering on anyone (some even extending this to Satan). Yet scripturally, whatever "eternal" means about torment it also means about life (see my article on Mt. 25:46). So if there is no eternal suffering then there is also no eternal life. Do you have a specific universalist belief in mind?

So in reference to your statement concerning hell you don't believe that God is omnipresent? What do you think of what David said here in Psalm 139:8?

If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

And secondly concerning your thoughts towards universalism, have you ever done a word study on the Hebrew word olam and Greek words aion and aionios ? To use the reasoning you are applying to aion and olam then Jonah is still in the belly of that big fish and old covenant is still in place.

I am not sure if any of you have children or not, I expect some of you do. Anyway, do you love your children, all of your children? God loves all of His children. Do you like every thing your child does? Probably not! God is a loving God, but He is also a Holy God and a just God and when His children disobey He will punish, sometimes that means He has to destroy some of them.

Really, so if you had a child who was always misbehaving, it would be pleasing to God if you destroyed the child?

What do you make of this scripture?
"Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for He is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked. Luke 6:35

 

[tomwebster]

....Really, so if you had a child who was always misbehaving, it would be pleasing to God if you destroyed the child?

What do you make of this scripture?
"Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for He is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked. Luke 6:35

This is how I answer that question! You have no idea what you are talking about! You are misinformed and continue to misuse Scripture! Some day you need to discover the Holiness of God!

 

[SaberTruth]

So in reference to your statement concerning hell you don't believe that God is omnipresent? What do you think of what David said here in Psalm 139:8?

Is David giving doctrine or poetry? Is Sheol only the realm of the wicked dead, or of all the dead during the time before Christ? When you answer those questions, you'll know my answers.

And secondly concerning your thoughts towards universalism, have you ever done a word study on the Hebrew word olam and Greek words aion and aionios ? To use the reasoning you are applying to aion and olam then Jonah is still in the belly of that big fish and old covenant is still in place.

Sure have. And as I said in the article I linked to, aion means an unknown length of time, so only context determines whether that time is forever. So no, it does not require Jonah to still be in the belly of the fish.

Really, so if you had a child who was always misbehaving, it would be pleasing to God if you destroyed the child?

Would it be evil to disown a child? Why not?

What do you make of this scripture?
"Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for He is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked. Luke 6:35

What has this to do with eternity? These are instructions Jesus gave to His followers for this life, and I'm pretty sure all His followers have always been mere humans. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" says the Lord. And what do you do with the souls under the altar in heaven in Rev., who say "How long, sovereign Lord, holy and true, till you avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"

 

[jiggyfly]

This is how I answer that question! You have no idea what you are talking about! You are misinformed and continue to misuse Scripture! Some day you need to discover the Holiness of God!

Nice response, it is obvious that you have no idea what I'm talking about though. LOL. Little hint, adding scriptures that support your opinion will aid in making your view valid.

 

[jiggyfly]

Is David giving doctrine or poetry? Is Sheol only the realm of the wicked dead, or of all the dead during the time before Christ? When you answer those questions, you'll know my answers.

Did David lie?

Sure have. And as I said in the article I linked to, aion means an unknown length of time, so only context determines whether that time is forever. So no, it does not require Jonah to still be in the belly of the fish.

[font="tahoma][size="3"]Nor does it require that hell be unending, unless of course you want to ignore Revelation 20:14.[/size][/font]
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Would it be evil to disown a child? Why not?

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[font="tahoma][size="3"]No, but I believe the word used was "destroy" not disown. [/size][/font]
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What has this to do with eternity? These are instructions Jesus gave to His followers for this life, and I'm pretty sure all His followers have always been mere humans. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" says the Lord. And what do you do with the souls under the altar in heaven in Rev., who say "How long, sovereign Lord, holy and true, till you avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"

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[font="tahoma][size="3"]Nothing but seems rather conflicting to the concept of unending punishment. Funny how you overlook the fact that Jesus states His Father is kind to the unthankful and the wicked. Do you think Jesus was lying about His Father?[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="3"]As far as referencing your personal website, why not copy/paste your excerpts here in your posts? [/size][/font]
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[SaberTruth]

Did David lie?

Does genre matter at all as part of the context?[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
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[font="tahoma][size="3"]Nor does it require that hell be unending, unless of course you want to ignore Revelation 20:14.[/size][/font]

[font="tahoma][size="3"]It's usually uni's who want to ignore that one, unless they decide that being thrown into the Lake of Fire annihilates people. But I can't imagine how it would be possible to find a clearer way for the Bible to say unending torment than phrases like "for ever and ever".
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[font="tahoma][size="3"]No, but I believe the word used was "destroy" not disown. [/size][/font]

[font="tahoma][size="3"]What do you mean by "destroy"?
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[font="tahoma][size="3"]Nothing but seems rather conflicting to the concept of unending punishment. Funny how you overlook the fact that Jesus states His Father is kind to the unthankful and the wicked. Do you think Jesus was lying about His Father?[/size][/font]

What's with all the "lying" questions? Are you trying to always posit "black and white" or "false dilemma"? Lying is not the only alternative interpretation; it can also be that you've overlooked other possibilities. And how does this conflict with unending punishment? What is vengeance then? And how does annihilation of souls pay for anything? Heaven or hell is determined by what one does with Jesus' offer of reconciliation, and the residents of hell are those who rejected it.

I overlooked nothing, but you seem to overlook the context quite a bit. Did Jesus say that God's kindness is for all eternity, or was He talking about this current age? And if the context is ambiguous, inserting one's preferred meaning would be begging the question.

[font="tahoma][size="3"]

As far as referencing your personal website, why not copy/paste your excerpts here in your posts?

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Many boards frown on that sort of thing.

 

[aspen]

I am not sure if any of you have children or not, I expect some of you do. Anyway, do you love your children, all of your children? God loves all of His children. Do you like every thing your child does? Probably not! God is a loving God, but He is also a Holy God and a just God and when His children disobey He will punish, sometimes that means He has to destroy some of them.

Parents who destroy their children are punished for doing so in our culture and rightfully so, no matter how bad their children have been! I am not sure which post is more horrifying - the one above or Xander's response to it!

If, even we (sinful humans), recognize the evil of abusive parents and punish them for doing so - don't you think God's behavior would transcend our ethical standards? If God does have lower ethical standards than his creation, it would be unethical to worship him.

Hell is merely the condition of a heart that has not submitted to God's justification and sanctification - ugly? Yes! But deserving of God's personal wrath and contempt - ridiculous (do I take it personally when my dog craps on the carpet?- if so, my wrath is certainly in vain) and unworthy of our worship for sure.

This comes down to an issue of God's character - any attempt to describe God as less ethical than His creation is character assassination!

Peace

 

[tomwebster]

Parents who destroy their children are punished for doing so in our culture and rightfully so, no matter how bad their children have been! I am not sure which post is more horrifying - the one above or Xander's response to it!

If, even we (sinful humans), recognize the evil of abusive parents and punish them for doing so - don't you think God's behavior would transcend our ethical standards? If God does have lower ethical standards than his creation, it would be unethical to worship him.

Hell is merely the condition of a heart that has not submitted to God's justification and sanctification - ugly? Yes! But deserving of God's personal wrath and contempt - ridiculous (do I take it personally when my dog craps on the carpet?- if so, my wrath is certainly in vain) and unworthy of our worship for sure.

This comes down to an issue of God's character - any attempt to describe God as less ethical than His creation is character assassination!

Peace

Well I guess you have never read Ezekiel. Lucifer (Satan) is a child of God, as we all are, and God has all ready condemned Satan to burn from within. Have you ever read the Scripture that talks about “the wages of sin?” You might want to pretend that hell is not real but….

 

[aspen]

Well I guess you have never read Ezekiel. Lucifer (Satan) is a child of God, as we all are, and God has all ready condemned Satan to burn from within. Have you ever read the Scripture that talks about “the wages of sin?” You might want to pretend that hell is not real but….

1. I have read Ezekiel.

2. Satan is a fallen angel - He is not our 'spirit brother', which happens to be a LDS belief, not Christian.

3, I defined Hell; please see above. Perhaps it is easier to dismiss my post if I reject the doctrine of Hell? but.....

 

[Surf Rider]

xander, your views fit scripture right well.

Others, your views contradict scripture quite well.

We have all sorts of believers that don't believe the bible: they selectively pick and choose what seems right to them. Even homosexual "Christians". Even adulterous "Christians".

Look at the fruit of Christendom: it has the same moral statistics as the damned. Only a spiritual fool would believe that their beliefs are correct, when they have the same statistics as the damned. They are right in their own eyes, blind leaders of the blind, believing what is right in their own eyes, even though the proof of their errant beliefs is staring them and the whole world in the face. Only a stiff necked and rebellious people would persist in their beliefs that negate so many verses.

After the second admonishion, know for a fact that they are warped and twisted, the scriptures state, xander. From such, turn aside, knowing that bad company corrupts good character. If they will not listen to the scriptures, they obviously don't listen to the Spirit, no matter what they say to the contrary: you cannot get salt and fresh from the same well. But they don't believe that one, either. Why they bother to state that they believe any of the bible is just crazy.

Leave them to their sin, and go to those who will hear. Christ said to do this.