mmm…I don’t know. God told Him he would die. Someone else came along and said, that’s not true, you won’t die. He chose to believe the second one.
Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?
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mmm…I don’t know. God told Him he would die. Someone else came along and said, that’s not true, you won’t die. He chose to believe the second one.
Oceanprayers
Active Member
How would he know the difference? Who to believe? How would Adam even know what death was?
Oceanprayers
Active Member
I don't think that is a fitting analogy comparing the first man and woman to a two year old mind.I believe we all possess the requisite "understanding" ... it is only when it comes to actually choosing obedience that we fail rather consistently.
When you ask a two year old with chocolate stains around their mouth if they ate the Oreos you told them were for after supper, and they tell you "No." ... was the issue an inability to understand or an unwillingness to obey?
Did death exist in Eden before the fall?
I don’t know. I guess he could have asked, God what does death mean?
I gather you’re thinking…it was a set up?
Oceanprayers
Active Member
A set up? I don't know to say that.
I am just trying to understand.
God knows more than Adam and Eve, right?
Why would he put a tree in Eden that he would forbid be touched? Given we know the consequences that would befall the whole future human race?
And in one part of the old testament God says we're all responsible for our own transgressions, or sins. The sins of our parents don't pass to us.
I think that's what is written in one of the books after Genesis.
Why?
When in the beginning in Genesis we're told we're sinners now because Adam's sin passed to the whole of the human race because God made that to happen.
Honestly? I kind of think sometimes we are an object lesson for satan. Yes, I know how crazy that sounds.
Oceanprayers
Active Member
I think I remember it as saying…the child won’t be responsible for or pay for the sins of the parent and the parent won’t be held responsible for or pay for the sins of his child, but that every soul will be responsible for his own sins…
I see that as a little different than being infected with the same disease your parent had or a leopard having spots because it’s parent had spots.
DancesWithGnostics
Well-Known Member
Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Reconcile that with inheriting Adam's sinful nature.
As far as the fruit not even be touched - I dunno where that came in - Bible doesn't record God saying that - just "don't eat of it"
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Reconcile that with inheriting Adam's sinful nature.
As far as the fruit not even be touched - I dunno where that came in - Bible doesn't record God saying that - just "don't eat of it"
Oceanprayers
Active Member
I wouldn't say crazy. It is unique though.
Why would God make us an object lesson for Satan? Didn't God inform Satan of his fate after Satan was cast out of Heaven? And doesn't Satan know this too?
Why was Satan even here? Wasn't he the serpent in Eden? Why wait to give him his just deserts?
Isn't Satan still here?
Oceanprayers
Active Member
I don't know how disease and leopard's fit here.
What the bible says is we are responsible for our own transgressions. Now.
That sin condition is inherited from Adam, right? Inherited sin.
It was where you said you remembered reading our parents sins don’t pass to us. But they did pass to us by inheritance. So I was just thinking you were talking about that verse so I was pointing out that the verse was different than inheritance. But it seems you agree. I was referring to the inheritance as disease by comparison. As for a leopard not being able to change its spots (it’s a verse), it was born with them, I saw a connection but if you don’t it’s okay.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Yes and no.
The two year old is guileless, like Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve had fully developed minds and no “inherited curse”, so they have less excuse than the two year old.
What the two year old does point out is that the DESIRE to disobey is innate to human beings. It shatters the myth that we are somehow born innately “good” and must be taught evil.
****
Did death exist in Eden before the fall?
Scripture is silent, so who am I to offer an answer. I suspect, which is nothing more than a guess, that there was no death in the sense of the “unfairness” of loosing a loved one to accident or illness or old age.
Adam was to tend the garden, and as a gardener, I cannot imagine tending a garden (even one without any weeds) that didn’t involve what e.e. cummings described as “a miracle of unceasing
birth and glory and death and resurrection” as seeds become plants become flowers become new seeds. (My view could be tainted by my experiences and Eden could be a garden that functions beyond my imagination) … however, I think it possible that DEATH as a concept and second-hand reality may have existed in Eden.
Only God has the definitive answer.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
[Exodus 34:7 NKJV] 7 "keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing [the guilty], visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."
[Numbers 14:18 NKJV] 18 'The LORD is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears [the guilty], visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth [generation].'
One definition of “paradox” is two statements that may seem contradictory but actually both be true. The Word of God describes important spiritual truths, and these truths often contain paradoxes. That bothers “Greeks” (gentile) minds that seek human logic to explain everything, but is less of a problem for “Jews” that embrace mysteries and “seek signs”. [Paul said that. I just paraphrased him.]
Here we have three truths from the word of God:
- The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son (Ezekiel 18)
- The Lord visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation. (Exodus 34)
- There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one. (Romans 3)
Purely my speculative understanding, but I do not think that the “Adamic Curse” is a matter of us being punished (damned to hell) because of the actions of Adam … that would be too much like the son bearing the iniquity of the father, which God says “Ain’t So”. However, life tells us that actions have consequences. The parents got divorced and the children paid a price for it. There are “generational curses” … talk to the children that were raised in the home of any alcoholic … or an adult “crack baby”. Some genetic. Many learned dysfunctions passed from generation to generation.
We are all descended from Adam. The fatal flaw in Adam that drew him to sin like a moth to a flame has been passed down to us. We are all born “bent”. No one is capable of following a straight path. To sin means to “miss the mark”. That is why God had to take such drastic actions to save anyone (some) … draw, elect, foreknew, chosen.
DancesWithGnostics
Well-Known Member
Jer 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
And that is exactly why the Gospel is called "the Word of God" and "the power of God unto salvation", and that is also exactly why sinners can and do obey the Gospel. The power of the Gospel is to generate faith in Christ (Rom 10:17). In fact the entire 10th chapter of Romans is devoted to this matter.
As to believing in "the true God" God says that all men are without excuse. So you are actually contradicting God.
ROMANS 1: REFUTES YOUR FALSE THEOLOGY!
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Whenever someone contradicts the Bible, we can be sure that Satan is behind that attack on Bible truth and Gospel truth.
Before a person is saved[quickened], they are spiritually dead and that makes it impossible for faith to
emerge. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 and not of the flesh.81
emerge. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 and not of the flesh.81
Man naturally doesnt seek after the True God, nor understands the True God Rom 3:11
No man naturally can believe on Christ nor even believe in the True God, Naturally man doesnt seek the True God nor understand Him Rom 3:11 !
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