Does man posses a "free will" before salvation?

[ScottAU]

i have thought long and hard concerning this subject and have come up with that whether person has a free will all depends upon how you yourself define free will.

if you look at free will as a total free will where we can choose our own destinies no matter what then according to the bible we don't have a complete free will because we Jesus says we will either serve God or satan but not both. if it were possible then we could live without both God and satan but according to the Word we are either serving God's kingdom or satan's kingdom whether we realize it or not. then no we don't have a free will.

if you look at free will as being a rational person who is able to make their own decisions then yes we have a free will.

God bless

We do have free will because we can CHOOSE whom we will serve.

Sinners sell themselves into both the bondage and dominion of sin by CHOOSING to sin.

It is through the blood of Christ that Jesus bought us back from the dominion of sin and it is through repentance (dying with Christ) that we are set free from the bondage.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sinners sell themselves into both the bondage and dominion of sin by CHOOSING to sin.

Those who have been bought with a price cannot sell themselves into sin unless they abandon the faith.

 

[Angelina]

I attach the word "free will" with having the choice to make a decision rather than the choices themselves. Man has a free will in that sense.The O/P was: "Does a man possess a free will before salvation" My answer has to be yes he does. The decision he faces though, is based on life in Christ or death in the world. He can still choose death as an alternative...

BB

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

You can hang a label on it if you like and many men can't resist the temptation but I'm not necessarily supporting free will or slave or every mans an island.
It's simply the means that God uses to draw men into salvation. the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought

The longer I spend on this site the more harmful and abrasive I realize labels can be, you are ether for me or against me, Matthew 12:30-31
for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; 1Chr 28:9

Not really, brother. I was simply drawing you out to be more specific in your dialogue. I'm not very good at riddles, so I tend to get people to say it as it is. Thanks for your response.

i have thought long and hard concerning this subject and have come up with that whether person has a free will all depends upon how you yourself define free will.

if you look at free will as a total free will where we can choose our own destinies no matter what then according to the bible we don't have a complete free will because we Jesus says we will either serve God or satan but not both. if it were possible then we could live without both God and satan but according to the Word we are either serving God's kingdom or satan's kingdom whether we realize it or not. then no we don't have a free will.

if you look at free will as being a rational person who is able to make their own decisions then yes we have a free will.

God bless

Thanks for your response. It certainly is close to what I was trying to get at. As I implied at the beginning it just depends what one means and where they source their definition of "free will". After all it's not our experience that defines free or not free will, but rather God's word and then we have to study HARD to understand what he has to say about it.

It's a difficult subject to broach as we know man chooses and God Sovereignly determines man's fate. But how to reconcile the two? When we are called to renew our minds or bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ it sounds a lot easier than one first suspected.

We have many sources of influence that impinges upon our mind and brings our will into subjection that's opposed to the mind of God. These subtly influences affect how we approach the word of God and determine reality. God's word alone determines our condition before and post salvation for it's the ONLY authoritative voice on the planet.

To him alone do we bow our minds to and by his grace are we set free.

 

[Angelina]

Man does not know that he is bound up in sin until it comes to the point where the hope of salvation is revealed by the grace of God. This grace allows him to make the choice of believing and receiving but prior to this point, he sees within himself [although in bondage to sin] as having a free will.

Shalom Achi!

 

[dragonfly]

This is an interesting discussion!

First, I would like to say that what a man does = 'his will'. He does not have 'a will' separate from his expression of his heart's desire.

Man does not know that he is bound up in sin until it come to the point where the hope of salvation is revealed by the grace of God. This grace allows him to make the choice of believing and receiving but prior to this point, he sees within himself [although in bondage to sin] as having a free will.

Ah, Angelina, you've touched on something I wanted to say... that until the word of God is preached into the ears of a person (from rank unbeliever to patiently enduring saint) and faith comes to life in his heart as he is given hearing by that word Romans 10:17... he is not as free to believe and respond as he is having the word and faith waiting to be mixed in his heart, and demonstrated by his response to (it) God.

We do have free will because we can CHOOSE whom we will serve.

Hi Scott,

I agree with this in theory, but the reality is that there are many individual journeys, and sometimes prayer is needed to release a person from bondage, or heal some broken part of their psyche, before their life can demonstrate the outworking of the desire of their heart, to please God by manifestly obeying Him. Many Christians have little spiritual understanding, and no idea how to pray for themselves constructively.

When Legion ran to Jesus, he was still full of demons. He was manifesting the choice of his heart; but he was not 'free', yet. See what I mean?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

This is an interesting discussion!

First, I would like to say that what a man does = 'his will'. He does not have 'a will' separate from his expression of his heart's desire.



Ah, Angelina, you've touched on something I wanted to say... that until the word of God is preached into the ears of a person (from rank unbeliever to patiently enduring saint) and faith comes to life in his heart as he is given hearing by that word Romans 10:17... he is not as free to believe and respond as he is having the word and faith waiting to be mixed in his heart, and demonstrated by his response to (it) God.



Hi Scott,

I agree with this in theory, but the reality is that there are many individual journeys, and sometimes prayer is needed to release a person from bondage, or heal some broken part of their psyche, before their life can demonstrate the outworking of the desire of their heart, to please God by manifestly obeying Him. Many Christians have little spiritual understanding, and no idea how to pray for themselves constructively.

When Legion ran to Jesus, he was still full of demons. He was manifesting the choice of his heart; but he was not 'free', yet. See what I mean?

This is an interesting discussion!

First, I would like to say that what a man does = 'his will'. He does not have 'a will' separate from his expression of his heart's desire.



Ah, Angelina, you've touched on something I wanted to say... that until the word of God is preached into the ears of a person (from rank unbeliever to patiently enduring saint) and faith comes to life in his heart as he is given hearing by that word Romans 10:17... he is not as free to believe and respond as he is having the word and faith waiting to be mixed in his heart, and demonstrated by his response to (it) God.



Hi Scott,

I agree with this in theory, but the reality is that there are many individual journeys, and sometimes prayer is needed to release a person from bondage, or heal some broken part of their psyche, before their life can demonstrate the outworking of the desire of their heart, to please God by manifestly obeying Him. Many Christians have little spiritual understanding, and no idea how to pray for themselves constructively.

When Legion ran to Jesus, he was still full of demons. He was manifesting the choice of his heart; but he was not 'free', yet. See what I mean?

I would like to say that what you said that what MAN does = his will, is partially true. Why? Because man can also be taken over by demons and they can utilize his soul i.e. will to do their bidding. Also, whilst man may choose it is also said that God also commands his will, consider Pharaoh. Of course it begs the question, how is it so that Pharaoh chose and God chose for Pharaoh?

What's your take on this?

I would like some responses from people on this as I have what I think is an answer to it.

 

[Angelina]

My quote: Man does not know that he is bound up in sin until it comes to the point where the hope of salvation is revealed by the grace of God. This grace allows him to make the choice of believing and receiving but prior to this point, he sees within himself [although in bondage to sin] as having a free will.
DF: Ah, Angelina, you've touched on something I wanted to say... that until the word of God is preached into the ears of a person (from rank unbeliever to patiently enduring saint) and faith comes to life in his heart as he is given hearing by that word Romans 10:17... he is not as free to believe and respond as he is having the word and faith waiting to be mixed in his heart, and demonstrated by his response to (it) God.

Amen DF!
He is not free to believe and respond at this point because faith is being accomplished in his heart demonstrated by his willingness to respond. He does however, have a choice to not continue on that path where God is knocking at the door of his heart, entreating him to respond. The question asked is "does man have a free will before salvation. Within the context of his imprisonment [as one in bondage to sin] I believe he has a free will to respond or not to respond. Hebrews 2: 3-4. As a born-again believer however, we have been bought at a price, we are not our own. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

 

[dragonfly]

Hi JB,

I would like to say that what you said that what MAN does = his will, is partially true. Why? Because man can also be taken over by demons and they can utilize his soul i.e. will to do their bidding.

This is why I mentioned Legion: because he was able to run and worship Jesus before he was delivered from all those demons.

It is true that there may be many involuntary behaviours which the hopeless, demon-possessed person experiences, (frequently) not knowing there is deliverance through the name of Jesus Christ, and not turning to Him for help, but it is also true that once God is in their consicous thinking life, if they are determined to be set free by Him, He will lead them out of their captivity as they obey Him, and as they follow after righteousness.

A person who knows they have demons interfering with their thinking and living, can refuse to comply with their most extreme outworking, especially if they are consciously trying to please God.

Also, whilst man may choose it is also said that God also commands his will,

The way I see this is probably a bit maverick from some folks' points of view. Let me know what you think, too, please?

To my mind, all the right standards are in God. His 'word' - in the sense that He has declared Himself centuries before we were born - is not a secret, but it also needs to be quickened to each of us by the Holy Spirit - whether or not we are born from above at the time He speaks to us. (I hope I don't need to quote scripture to show that God spoke to non-Israelites both before and after Israel existed.) The effect of hearing from God is critical to what happens next. If the person who hears God makes the response God desires (to do, or to not do) the revelation which continues to come to them will increase. By that, I mean God will give them more light. (I realise it may not feel like 'more light' to the person, because it seems to come in fits and starts, and sometimes seems to have very long gaps between, but looking back, we all find that God was faithful from His side, and He was drawing us after Him.)

So then the bit about 'choosing' really comes down to choosing what God has already chosen. It is not that any of us 'choose' totally separately from the general revelation of God through creation, through His written word, or through sound preaching. His word may even come from a non-Christian. But the heart-set of the hearer makes all the difference to what he chooses. I also believe that Romans 10:17 is a principle. It's not just in relation to evangelism. As Christians, we 'hear' what God is saying to us, and it produces faith in us; and this faith may mean we now believe we can do something which we would never have thought of trying until God sent forth His word into our hearts with all its creative power.

To me, that moment of 'hearing', is when heaven is wide open to us for a few seconds in a special way. We know that God always knows what everyone is thinking, even before the person themself knows what they are thinking, but at the moment that we know what God has said, we also know that He knows we have heard Him clearly, even if we might need to seek Him for clarification, and that might take time before obedience can be performed. Thus, God sees a person's attitude to His word and His speaking, and that has a lot to do with the patience He affords those who seek Him actively, even before they have fully understood the gospel, or become ready to make a conscious choice to become a Christian.

Of course it begs the question, how is it so that Pharaoh chose and God chose for Pharaoh?

I think the prophetic and the creative, both came together in Pharaoh's experience. I don't think he was a pawn in God's plan, in a negative way. He never really had a change of heart towards God's revealed word, and thus his own interests as he saw them, always rose back up to the top.

 

[Angelina]

Well said sister, Amen!

 

[KingJ]

I am getting so lost in this discussion. It would be so easy to follow everybody's view and beliefs if we stated our belief and then explained ourselves.

I believe in absolute free will. Existing from day 1 to infinity.

JB are you saying that you support Calvinism? 5 point Calvinism, 4 point or other?

Free will is calculated by taking into account the fact that God does not sin and He is impartial. Since the wages of sin is death, God would have to go to hell / pay for His own sin if He made someone evil. Hence nobody is made evil, rather we are put in an evil environment. God is impartial, thus if one person has to endure temptation from the devil, all have to. If one person is given a chance to accept Him, all must. If one person has his heart regenerated without a say in the matter, all must.

Calvinism dies on God's impartiality. Free will is proven in that God does not sin and that their is a hell.

Man possesses free will before and after salvation. Heck, even into heaven and hell. It's just that our depth of intent is well known by God before our fate is sealed. Hence If God took anyone out of hell (as I am sure He wishes He could) He would be over-riding their free will to reject Him.

 

[dripping yellow madness]

I was taught (i think in sunday evening bible study) that free will has nothing to do with teh choices we make but how God sees our actions, either as good or evil.. before wee are saved all our freewill choices are only eviil, to disobey god. After we are saved we have th choice to obey God or disobey Him.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I am getting so lost in this discussion. It would be so easy to follow everybody's view and beliefs if we stated our belief and then explained ourselves.

I believe in absolute free will. Existing from day 1 to infinity.

JB are you saying that you support Calvinism? 5 point Calvinism, 4 point or other?

Free will is calculated by taking into account the fact that God does not sin and He is impartial. Since the wages of sin is death, God would have to go to hell / pay for His own sin if He made someone evil. Hence nobody is made evil, rather we are put in an evil environment. God is impartial, thus if one person has to endure temptation from the devil, all have to. If one person is given a chance to accept Him, all must. If one person has his heart regenerated without a say in the matter, all must.

Calvinism dies on God's impartiality. Free will is proven in that God does not sin and that their is a hell.

Man possesses free will before and after salvation. Heck, even into heaven and hell. It's just that our depth of intent is well known by God before our fate is sealed. Hence If God took anyone out of hell (as I am sure He wishes He could) He would be over-riding their free will to reject Him.

What if NO man deserved to enter heaven, but God out of the benevolence of his heart selected some among the multitudes for destruction for himself. Would that make him impartial or is he guilty of favoritism?

 

[KingJ]

What if NO man deserved to enter heaven, but God out of the benevolence of his heart selected some among the multitudes for destruction for himself. Would that make him impartial or is he guilty of favoritism?

'No man' as in 'God created all for hell' = evil. 'No man' as in 'God created all pure (babies go to heaven) with free will' and nobody chose Him = God remains good and impartial. Selecting some from among the multitudes is definitely both favoritism and partiality = evil.

We need to grasp that God upholds impartiality to the maximum. Just as He is righteous to the maximum.

The common mistake is to use our brains to define God. We take the fact that He is 1. omniscient / sovereign and 2. is our Creator, combine them and conclude He made some for hell and some for heaven. But we fail. God is also 3. impartial. Just like I am a male with black hair. I am not a female with black hair. Anyone saying that is a liar. We need to grasp all the '''is's'', to form the correct picture of God.

My head is big and my hairline far removed from my face and yet I have a small ear. Most would assume I have a big ear. Hence they fail, by filling in the gap with an assumption instead of hearing me describe myself. Saying that God specially selects someone is a wrong assumption. Derived with logical thought sure, but clearly only from looking at half the facts.

Conclusion: 5 point Calvinists fail to look at all the facts and grasp that all scripture must be discerned in the light that God is good.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

No man as in 'God created all for hell' = evil, God is not evil. No man as in 'God created all pure (babies go to heaven) with free will' and nobody chose Him = God remains good and impartial. Selecting some from among the multitudes is definitely both favouritism and partiality = evil.

We need to grasp that God upholds impartiality to the maximum. Just as He is righteous to the maximum.

No question there, brother. As the scriptures say "let God be true and all men be liars". We both agree that God created Hell for the Devil and his Angels. It wasn't designed for man. nevertheless, the gospel is preached one way or another to all. Whether it renders to life or death according to the individual.

The thing we have to come to grips with is God can do as he pleases. He is not subject to man's judgement or perception of fair play. As the scriptures state:




Rom 9:6-17 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.





Rom 9:18-23 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi JB,

I replied to your earlier question, on p1 of this thread.

In respect of your quotes from Romans 9, isn't the correct conclusion that found by Paul at the end of Galatians 3?

That is: the children of the promise are those who believe. Are you suggesting that God made people who are unable to believe, or do you postulate that some choose unbelief by the same mechanism as those who choose belief?

 

[KingJ]

The thing we have to come to grips with is God can do as he pleases

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Yes, God does what pleases Him Psalm 115:3. No debate there . But the thing is, we DO know what pleases God. In this scripture above when God says '' I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy'' We know, whom He will have mercy on (John 3:15, 1 Tim 2:4).

We need to grasp that God doing what pleases Him will never result in evil as that does not please Him. He can do as He pleases, correct. Who are we to question Him, correct! But we can relax and know that God is good and impartial. It pleases Him to be good and impartial.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This verse is inline with Luke 13:27. God shows mercy on whom He pleases. We know its His desire that none should perish (2 Pet 3:9) and as I said above, we know whom He pleases to show mercy on.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

A fool would say that to God, God has made His will clear and we can know it. The clay cannot make the law! only the potter. We know what pleases God . ''Why hast thou made me thus'' We had no say in how we were made. Many atheists want to be a monkey with no accountability, we have to accept that we are humans with accountability. We have to accept that God makes the law, not us. We either abide or we don't.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The key word here is 'same lump' God can make a human / vessel all start off as babies (same lump) but yet capable of one being evil and another not. It is not saying God made a vessel from a lump of dishonour and another from a lump of honour.

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

We have to again grasp the significance of 'same lump' in prior verse. He afore prepared that the vessels from the same lump that are unto honour would be in heaven. He shows His mercy and love for the evil by allowing the vessels unto dishonour to have time to be evil. Further proof that space is made for all to exercise free will.

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

We know who He hath called! 1 Tim 2:4. So if we know that we are in-Christ we can make that statement too.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Conclusion: We can be forgiven for being Calvinistic as those verses are strong support for that mindset . But we must grasp that we are not reprobates that do not know what pleases God. We must never forget the levels that God goes to to uphold what pleases Him! It pleases God to be impartial. It pleases God that the wages of sin is death. God upheld that with His life on the cross. God will do likewise to uphold impartiality.

So take the scripture you quoted and add the scripture where God explains to us exactly what pleases Him and on whom He shows mercy. If we just take your verses we draw a picture of a God that can / may / will change His mind on what pleases Him....today He is good, tommrrow He is bad. No, God does not change who He is. We just need to take all scripture and judge God properly. When Paul says we must judge all things (1 Cor 2:15) this includes God. Not judge as in '' propose changes to His law'' God forbid! rather judge whether we approve of Him and His ways or not. Would you approve of a God that showed partiality? That sent your wife to hell and spared you. God can proclaim the scripture you quoted because He knows He is beyond reproach. We will not see through a glass darkly in heaven! We will be able to judge even harsher! God has nothing to hide and wants us to know and be fully convinced that He is good and honours scripture to the maximum.

 

[Butch5]

Romans 9 is God's choosing among those of Israel through which He would fulfill the promises to Abraham.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Hi JB,

I replied to your earlier question, on p1 of this thread.

In respect of your quotes from Romans 9, isn't the correct conclusion that found by Paul at the end of Galatians 3?

That is: the children of the promise are those who believe. Are you suggesting that God made people who are unable to believe, or do you postulate that some choose unbelief by the same mechanism as those who choose belief?

Scripture indicates that "men refuse to come to Christ that they may have life", and other such scriptures supports this rule. Scripture also emphatically states unless the father draw(drag you), I suppose like an adult to a child which drags their feet, opposing the very thing that they are directed to do.

So, there's a dichotomy of will of man verse God's will. So without assistance it is impossible to approach Jesus as we have a self destructing mechanism called sinful self.

I'll leave it there for now.

 

[jiggyfly]

I think I agree with Angelina on that there is a freedom to choose the options put before us but we do not have the freedom to choose what options are placed before us.
Here are a couple of scriptures to consider in this discussion.

14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!15 For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” 18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who were made for destruction.23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
Romans 9:14-24 (NLT)


15 Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.16 Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior.17 This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus.18 They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.19 But God’s truth stands firm like a foundation stone with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “All who belong to the Lord must turn away from evil.” 20 In a wealthy home some utensils are made of gold and silver, and some are made of wood and clay. The expensive utensils are used for special occasions, and the cheap ones are for everyday use.21 If you keep yourself pure, you will be a special utensil for honorable use. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work.
2 Tim 2:15-21 (NLT)


all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved.
Acts 2:47 (NLT)


for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, 23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 24 then--the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power-- 25 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet-- 26 the last enemy is done away--death; 27 for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, 28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
1 Cor 15:22-28 (YLT)