Does man posses a "free will" before salvation?

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I think I agree with Angelina on that there is a freedom to choose the options put before us but we do not have the freedom to choose what options are placed before us.
Here are a couple of scriptures to consider in this discussion.

14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!15 For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” 18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who were made for destruction.23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
Romans 9:14-24 (NLT)


15 Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.16 Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior.17 This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus.18 They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.19 But God’s truth stands firm like a foundation stone with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “All who belong to the Lord must turn away from evil.” 20 In a wealthy home some utensils are made of gold and silver, and some are made of wood and clay. The expensive utensils are used for special occasions, and the cheap ones are for everyday use.21 If you keep yourself pure, you will be a special utensil for honorable use. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work.
2 Tim 2:15-21 (NLT)


all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved.
Acts 2:47 (NLT)


for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, 23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 24 then--the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power-- 25 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet-- 26 the last enemy is done away--death; 27 for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, 28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
1 Cor 15:22-28 (YLT)

I'm not sure what you're trying to establish here. There's only one interpretation of scripture, yet I see many on this forum pushing their own agenda. It seems to me experience and feeling seem to be the prized possession in this later day. Truth is then made subject to the creatures mind, rather than the other way round. I can see why there's NO unity in the supposed faith.

Yet the the scriptures tells us ONE LORD, FAITH AND BAPTISM. But that's not what we a seeing in this latter time. Many have risen within the ranks of christendom who lay in wait to deceive. You can know these duds by the fact that appeal to the flesh and as their father the devil supplies temptations according to the likes and dislikes of it's adherents, so do they.

Somebody has to be right and somebody has to be wrong, or there's not one faith, Lord etc but many. As you rightly stated, the 'LORD KNOWS WHO ARE HIS'.

 

[jiggyfly]

I'm not sure what you're trying to establish here. There's only one interpretation of scripture, yet I see many on this forum pushing their own agenda. It seems to me experience and feeling seem to be the prized possession in this later day. Truth is then made subject to the creatures mind, rather than the other way round. I can see why there's NO unity in the supposed faith.

Yet the the scriptures tells us ONE LORD, FAITH AND BAPTISM. But that's not what we a seeing in this latter time. Many have risen within the ranks of christendom who lay in wait to deceive. You can know these duds by the fact that appeal to the flesh and as their father the devil supplies temptations according to the likes and dislikes of it's adherents, so do they.

Somebody has to be right and somebody has to be wrong, or there's not one faith, Lord etc but many. As you rightly stated, the 'LORD KNOWS WHO ARE HIS'.

Well I added these scriptures to thread for discussion to show that God adds to the ekklesia, the body of Christ by way of HolySpirit, in other words He chooses us.

As far as many pushing their own agenda goes, you don't see yourself being part of that group?Don't your posts express your opinion of what the scripture mean? Is it possible that some of what you believe is a deception or do you consider yourself to be a 100% right?

Just like Calvinism/ Arminianism discussions where most think that it has to be one is right and the other is wrong but fail to present the third option that both can be wrong and this is evident in many other types of discussions.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Well I added these scriptures to thread for discussion to show that God adds to the ekklesia by way of HolySpirit.

As far as many pushing their own agenda goes, you don't see yourself being part of that group?Don't your posts express your opinion of what the scripture mean?

NO. Not only are we to take the current scripture(s) into focus, but the whole, unified tenor of scripture. i.e.OT/NT This is why one has to labour in the scriptures and simultaneously seek to show themselves approved of GOD.

 

[jiggyfly]

NO. Not only are we to take the current scripture(s) into focus, but the whole, unified tenor of scripture. i.e.OT/NT This is why one has to labour in the scriptures and simultaneously seek to show themselves approved of GOD.

Hey JB I added to my post after you had already responded, so you may want to reread it and comment further.

As far as you current response you really don't feel like your opinion is expressed in your posts?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Well I added these scriptures to thread for discussion to show that God adds to the ekklesia, the body of Christ by way of HolySpirit, in other words He chooses us.

As far as many pushing their own agenda goes, you don't see yourself being part of that group?Don't your posts express your opinion of what the scripture mean? Is it possible that some of what you believe is a deception or do you consider yourself to be a 100% right?

Just like Calvinism/ Arminianism discussions where most think that it has to be one is right and the other is wrong but fail to present the third option that both can be wrong and this is evident in many other types of discussions.

In regards to your last paragraph, that's your opinion and your opinion is just that, limited to ones' ability to perceive and understand the truth.

When everything is said and done, we all will have tested how we built upon Christ & he will determine whether it's wood, hay and/or stubble or ... . As to foundational doctrine or central tenets; if the foundation is rotten then all else will not stand a chance no matter how good it may seem.

 

[KingJ]

JB, this is how I see it in a nutshell, where exactly do you disagree?

Creator + omnisicient + sovereign + impartial + good = 100% free will for mankind.

Creator + omnisicient + sovereign + partial + evil = Calvinism.

We need to consider all the God ''is'' scritpures.

Making one person from a lump of dishonour and another from honour = partial. Making his evil creation (possibly a baby created from a lump of dishonour) suffer for being evil = evil.

 

[jiggyfly]

In regards to your last paragraph, that's your opinion and your opinion is just that, limited to ones' ability to perceive and understand the truth.

When everything is said and done, we all will have tested how we built upon Christ & he will determine whether it's wood, hay and/or stubble or ... . As to foundational doctrine or central tenets; if the foundation is rotten then all else will not stand a chance no matter how good it may seem.

And that JB is your opinion now isn't it.

Why would you think that your posts are facts and everyone's that disagree with it is opinion? Sounds very high minded.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Whilst it's true mankind possess 'a will' to choose, period. Can it be argued from scripture that it's free and what is free from a biblical point of view when considering sin and righteousness?

We do have free will to choose, yet when we choose to walk without God and His Word in our life, then we live under the curse that evil choices bring to our life.
Cain chose to walk contrary to God's Word and he was cast out of God's presence to be just a wanderer in the world to fend and provide for himself. God can not look upon sin and God never changes. The world rewards for craftiness as in conniving ways... but God rewards for righteous deeds. He lays before us life or death and hopes we choose life.

Deut 30:19-31:1
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
KJV

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

JB, this is how I see it in a nutshell, where exactly do you disagree?

Creator + omnisicient + sovereign + impartial + good = 100% free will for mankind.

Creator + omnisicient + sovereign + partial + evil = Calvinism.

We need to consider all the God ''is'' scritpures.

Making one person from a lump of dishonour and another from honour = partial. Making his evil creation (possibly a baby created from a lump of dishonour) suffer for being evil = evil.

Mankind + sin = {bondage to sin} and reflects in moral inability to respond to God without his assistance..i.e no desire to pursue God, nor the 'where with all' to do it or change.

​So, free will is defined as the ability to not sin and all that comes with it. Who amongst us could attempt that before salvation, since we were conceived in sin. Neither did we seek him and moreover loved darkness over light.

Example: You are in prison, yet you can move somewhat freely around in this confined space. Does that indicate you're free.? NO, it indicates only that you have a will. So it is with sin. You may be making choices within the 'domain of darkness' but does this mean you're free to proceed beyond it's perimeter? Can you extricate yourself from this darkness and moreover would you be inclined to do so in the first place, since that is mankind's natural habitat?.

I'll stop there for now.

And that JB is your opinion now isn't it.

Why would you think that your posts are facts and everyone's that disagree with it is opinion? Sounds very high minded.

No offence intended. I can be quite blunt, but I try to pull my head in.

 

[freeman4]

Are you sure we are free to sin as much as we want? Is this supported by scripture. In any case this general statement doesn't address the central question.

Free to sin? What do you mean by free? We will most certainly sin and maybe sin notoriously but does that mean we're are free in sinning?

We as humans are free moral agents. We have the capability to make our own decisions and that is what Jesus said. He said that we have before us a choice of Life, enteral life or death, eternal death and that we have the ability to choose which one we take. It is our choice, not Christ, He just shows us the way and we choose which one. He said He hoped we would choose Life, eternal life.

 

[Eltanin]

Freedom and free will are two separate things.

One can argue that there is no freedom as long as there are choices, because each choice binds us to the consequences of our choosing.

 

[In Christ]

After God had finished creating the world and man, He said it was very good (perfect). God gave Adam the Spirit of Jesus that as long as he was obedient, he will live forever. Then the test came and the rest is history.

Not only did Adam lose fellowship with God, the Spirit of Jesus (which is the essential ingredient for eternal life ) was also taken from him, and he became subject to spiritual as well as physical death (the wages of sin is death).

Jesus came to regenerate (the washing away of sin; Titus 3:5) to those He chose/elected/selected before the foundation of the world Rev.13:8, and to give them life again which Adam had lost (as in Adam all die; 1 Corinthians 15:22).

God in His mercy had given us a beautiful illustration in the raising of Lazarus.

As Jesus stood at the tomb of Lazarus He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus come forth!” Can Lazarus hear the command of Jesus? No, he was physically dead. But he did come forth. What had to have happened? Jesus had to qualify him and had to reach into the tomb to give Lazarus life.

As Lazarus was physically dead, so are we spiritually dead (impossible for us to understand spiritual things).
As Lazarus was physically deaf, so are we spiritually deaf (our ears are dull in hearing the true Gospel).
As Lazarus eyes were closed, so are we spiritually blind (we cannot see the truths of the Bible).
As Lazarus was physically closed lip, so are we spiritually dumb (we are incapable to speak spiritual things).

As we were spiritually dead once, we now have life through Jesus
As we were spiritually deaf once, we can now hear the true Gospel through Jesus.
As we were spiritually blind once, we can now see the truths of the Bible through Jesus.
As we were spiritually dumb once, we can now speak the things of God through Jesus.

These miracles are written in the pages of the Bible to show us that Jesus is God and also to show our condition of bankruptcy.

Scripture says: “Without Jesus we can do nothing.” John 15:5.

“Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.” Ps. 44:22

Without the intervention of God in choosing some of us who are on the way to the slaughter house, we will most certainly all end under the wrath of God.

Can anyone honestly say man has free will before salvation?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

We as humans are free moral agents. We have the capability to make our own decisions and that is what Jesus said. He said that we have before us a choice of Life, enteral life or death, eternal death and that we have the ability to choose which one we take. It is our choice, not Christ, He just shows us the way and we choose which one. He said He hoped we would choose Life, eternal life.

That's incorrect. We as humans do not have moral free agency or we could choose to live completely without sin. We are corrupted from the start (total depravity as some call it) and cannot choose the good or choose eternal life except by the grace of God. In the Christian worldview, God is the source of all goodness and so even when people are good, even people who don't know God, they are drawing from a foreign resource.

Hell is best described as all removal of God's presence so that people are left with who they are apart from God, utterly depraved, miserable, and alone. Man has, after the fall, never possessed the ability to choose good without the Author of all goodness.

 

[KingJ]

That's incorrect. We as humans do not have moral free agency or we could choose to live completely without sin. We are corrupted from the start (total depravity as some call it) and cannot choose the good or choose eternal life except by the grace of God. In the Christian worldview, God is the source of all goodness and so even when people are good, even people who don't know God, they are drawing from a foreign resource.

Hell is best described as all removal of God's presence so that people are left with who they are apart from God, utterly depraved, miserable, and alone. Man has, after the fall, never possessed the ability to choose good without the Author of all goodness.

We choose to sin as God is impartial. Sin does not get you into hell. Rejecting God does.

HOW do you judge a God that does not give us free will as good?

Care to discuss your view of John 3:16? Its a common Calvinist mistake to get the scope of the 'world' and the 'all' confused. Do you have a scripture that says Jesus died for the believers only? If you do, you will be the first Calvinist to have found it. All you have is assumptions off half the facts. Yes, God is omnisicient / sovereign / creator of all!! But He is also impartial. He is both at the SAME time. As Jesus said to the devil in Matt 4:5-7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

 

[williemac]

Man has, after the fall, never possessed the ability to choose good without the Author of all goodness.

O yes he has. There are a lot of unbelievers in this world who do good things. But man is tainted with sin. Jesus admitted that even sinners love their friends. But this is not righteousness. It falls short. Righteousness is the absence of sin. Man is unable to be consistent. We fall short of God's glory. That's what the bible says. Falling short is a far cry from the total depravity that some describe.

What man lacks is the ability to be righteous. What he lacks is the ability to produce life. Man is born into the world without God. Therefore he lacks the life within that he innately craves. As a result, man tries to fill that void by his own resources. This is essentially what produces sin. The very first disobedience (from Eve) was an attempt to get something that she perceived she was missing. This introduces the whole subject of God's integrity, which was challenged by the serpent. Thus a false viewpoint of God will motivate bad decisions and result in false doctrines.

Mankind can certainly desire to be righteous and desire to have life. What he cannot do is acquire these things by himself. They are gifts from God (integrity) In fact, these gifts, given by grace, come to the humble. In Luke 18:10-14, we find Jesus demonstrating the difference between pride and humility, and in that passage He reveals that the humble will be exalted and the proud will be humbled.

So try and tell us that man cannot humble himself. We are told that God gives grace to the humble. If He puts humility into a person first as some might suggest, then grace is coming first. That cannot be the case.


As a side note, this subject of free will often misses the point that man has free willingness. Jesus lamented over Jerusalem, who He wanted to take under His wing but they were not willing. He was prevented from doing His will by their unwillingness. (Math.23:37)

Remember, the gospel is the power of God to salvation. I think God has confidence that His demonstrated love can produce a willing heart. After all, is real, satisfying, genuine relationship something that comes apart from the willingness of both parties?

 

[musterion]

Can anyone honestly say man has free will before salvation?

Yes. Not just before salvation but during, after and very mch apart from salvation, all mankind posseses free will. Man must possess free will else God is an unjust liar for condemning men for choosing contrary to His revealed will.

Man has, after the fall, never possessed the ability to choose good without the Author of all goodness.

Cain was born "dead" in his father's sin yet was given a clear choice by God, which Cain heard and understood just fine.

 

[shnarkle]

The answer is yes, man does posses a free will prior to salvation. However, that free will is irrelevant to salvation, i.e.it cannot save him regardless of what decisions he makes. Paul makes this clear when he says that it is not of will or effort, but God that shows mercy. Rom. 9:16

Prior to salvation, the degenerate's decisions fall under the category of "walking after the flesh" and nothing that one does in the flesh can please God. Rom. 8:3-9

 

[bling]

That is not what Ro. 9 is teaching.

 

[lukethreesix]

I think a person does not have "free will" before being saved. A person who has not the Spirit of God cannot choose to sin or not sin. He must sin. Its only those who have both the Spirit and the flesh can choose. Those in the flesh have no choice but to sin. Those who have the Spirit can overcome and "sin no more". Yes they still struggle with the flesh, but do have the power to defeat it. Those without have no power to overcome. Repentance (turning from sin) can only come with salvation.

 

[KingJ]

I think a person does not have "free will" before being saved. A person who has not the Spirit of God cannot choose to sin or not sin. He must sin. Its only those who have both the Spirit and the flesh can choose. Those in the flesh have no choice but to sin. Those who have the Spirit can overcome and "sin no more". Yes they still struggle with the flesh, but do have the power to defeat it. Those without have no power to overcome. Repentance (turning from sin) can only come with salvation.

So you are a Calvinist?