Does Paul tell is in Romans chapter 7 that we will always sin while in this flesh nature?

[veteran]

It is wrong to say man cannot be free from sin.

God gives us his spirit, that we might taste, and see how his character is. While he is in us, we are full of joy and love. When he leaves, it is so that we would learn and be conformed to him. We must shape our character according to Christ's and crucify the flesh.

There is power in the work of the cross to overcome the old nature and walk in the new.

It's actually blasphemy against Christ to say that we can literally have no sin, as John even said...

I Jn 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(KJV)

John was not speaking that to a group that hadn't yet believed on Christ.


One of the things the pagans think to do with their flesh, is become 'perfect' in their flesh. They have no hope in the world to come, because they think somehow they can create some kind perfect flesh existence of the now! It's just like Paul taught in Rom.7, the minute they try the hardest... not to sin, they mess up and sin. We as Christians are LIKEWISE under the very SAME bondage to the flesh as they are!

So what's the difference??

Simple. WE have Christ Jesus Who died on the cross to redeem us, Who cleanses us from all sin through repentance. But those pagans don't have Christ Jesus. This is why we are all still sinners, yet those in Christ Jesus are 'counted' Perfect through His Blood shed on the cross.

Everyone stops before they get to the end of Romans 7, this passage is always passed over and ignored, Paul asks who will rescue him, who is His deliverer, and he answers it that Jesus Christ will rescue and deliver him.

He rescues us from sin!

Have you never overcome a sin in your life?

I have overcome sin, several of them, and He does not want to stop with just those sins. God made it so I could not stand the sin, my heart physically hurt, it was painful, I hated those sins. One of them He healed me immediately, I simply did not do that sin anymore. Another sin, I had to confess to someone, it took awhile because I didnt' want to confess it, but it got to the point where I could not hold onto it anymore, and so I did confess and I was healed when I did, it was about me being obedient to Him and in that God healed.

The Bible says we are overcomers in Christ, how? Because Christ lives in believers and He is the overcomer. There is no power in the cross if you don't believe that Christ lives in you and we are now "partakers of the divine nature".

That's just about one of the BEST witnesses I've ever heard of our need for continued 'repentance' to Christ, even AFTER we have believed on Him and been baptized!

 

[Prentis]

What you are saying amounts to say we are not freed from sin! You say we are under the same bondage :blink:

No, John says if anyone claims to have no sin. It means we are wrong if we claim to never have sinned.

If we walk perfectly in the Spirit, can sin dwell in us? No.

We can overcome. It would be wrong to claim we have never sinned, yes.

To claim that Christ is able to redeem man perfectly is to have faith in his ability, and that indeed, if we consecrate ourselves, he sanctifies us.

 

[Jake]

That's just about one of the BEST witnesses I've ever heard of our need for continued 'repentance' to Christ, even AFTER we have believed on Him and been baptized!

Yes, and I should have added that as God convicts us of our sins, our sin window becomes less and less, to the point where we are complete overcomers of all sin. It's a process of sanctification. I would agree with Prentis, if we are walking in the Spirit, there is no room for sin. If we aren't walking in the Spirit, we will stumble. I can tell you that when I sinned and later had to confess, at the time I sinned, I handled the situation completely with a carnal and worldly attitude, I was filled with anger and I sinned in my anger. I took my focus off of God and focused on my circumstance.

Once God teaches us something, we are responsible for what He has taught us.

 

[veteran]

What you are saying amounts to say we are not freed from sin! You say we are under the same bondage :blink:

No, John says if anyone claims to have no sin. It means we are wrong if we claim to never have sinned.

If we walk perfectly in the Spirit, can sin dwell in us? No.

We can overcome. It would be wrong to claim we have never sinned, yes.

To claim that Christ is able to redeem man perfectly is to have faith in his ability, and that indeed, if we consecrate ourselves, he sanctifies us.

Christ did not come to save our flesh body.

John was preaching the same things as Paul in Galatians, walking by The Spirit vs. walking by the flesh, and then with one more idea. The idea that after having come to Christ and we commit a sin, we need to repent of it. And if we say we have no sin, then the truth is not in us.

This is why John defined sin as the transgression of the law, meaning God's laws. Not the sacrificial and religious ritual ordinances, but the laws that still stand today under The New Covenant involving the Ten Commandments, and all the things our Lord Jesus and His Apostles commanded us. In Rom.7 Paul was actually admitting that in his fleshy members, he found another law in operation that went against the law of God. He admitted his fleshy members prevented him from being perfect. He was not preaching that we shouldn't try to be perfect, but that ultimately because of our fleshy members having been concluded under sin, it is not able to become perfect, for ONLY Christ Jesus could do that, which is why He is our Saviour and there is None Else.

Even if you think you've reached the point where you believe you are doing no sin at all, that state of mind in itself is a sin. It's because we are ordained in this flesh to always fall short of the Glory of God and His Christ. We cannot ever... become 'a Christ'.

The Christian Gnostics actually believed they could... conquer in every way how our Lord Jesus did. That also led them to think they could reach perfection in their flesh, the goal of ancient mystic men of the Far East. They turned to monasticism to try and do it, living an ascetic life, separating themselves from the world. Works like The Imitation of Christ by Kempis in the 15th century helped lead many in the Church to that type of thinking. Yet Christ's Salvation is a Gift, not something to be attained by repetitive spiritual exercises and ascetic practices like monks in the Far East.

 

[Prentis]

No brother, I have not reached this.

The issue that is usually confused is being perfected by the flesh and while in the flesh, very different things. Jesus, did he have a body just like ours? He did. If we walk by the spirit, we will not fulfill the deeds of the flesh. He has given us power to overcome.

Paul himself spoke of pressing on to attain Christ.

 

[veteran]

Did Peter sin after he had received the Holy Spirit?

Yes, per Galatians 2, when Peter's Jewish brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit, and he separated himself apart from the Gentiles. Paul called him down for it too. Paul called it hypocrisy (hupokrisis). It was an act that no doubt upset the Gentile brethren which Peter had been dining with before they came.

It's simply obvious that things like that which Christ would not have done, we are still apt to do if we don't watch ourselves.

 

[Prentis]

I absolutely agree.

The thing is, God gives us of his spirit, and when we are there, we are like him. But then he moves aback, and we must be faithful. The purpose of our having the spirit is that we learn what the new nature is and the character of Christ. Then we have to choose the character of Christ.

I am not saying we just right aways happen to be perfect. But the Lord gives us a new nature, by which we must learn to walk. Man can indeed learn to walk this way, and be faithful.

 

[veteran]

No brother, I have not reached this.

The issue that is usually confused is being perfected by the flesh and while in the flesh, very different things. Jesus, did he have a body just like ours? He did. If we walk by the spirit, we will not fulfill the deeds of the flesh. He has given us power to overcome.

Paul himself spoke of pressing on to attain Christ.

I had no intention of assuming that you had claimed any such status from freedom of all sin. It's because I know it's not possible for you, me, nor anyone else to have in this life.

If believing that you can be perfect in your flesh helps you to overcome your flesh in serving Christ, then go to. But you will never be 'a Christ'. Only when He appears the second time will we be like He is, and still then, we will only be His children and not God.

 

[Prentis]

You show yourself to be graceful, brother!

By our own power, we cannot, I agree. But by his spirit, we can overcome! That is what I believe.

The Lord bless you

 

[prism]

Sinless perfection?
Let's make sure no one is moving any goal posts...loving God with all of our heart, with all of our mind, with all of our soul, with all of our strength-- 100% of the time!! And here comes the hard part...loving our neighbor as ourselves!
. Under these rules I plead guilty and am full of sinfulness and continually need to fall back on Christ's perfect law keeping in my stead.
But in the Sphere of His Grace He molds me and shapes me to be conformed to His image, yet I am light years from the above goal.

 

[Prentis]

God is a merciful God, and my understanding is that he has mercy on the humble, and what we must do is persevere. It is indeed far.

But our aim must indeed be about being conformed to him. Our concentration is not on 'not sinning' but on being one with Christ.

 

[Vengle]

Prentis your post #31 hits the nail right square on the head and ought to drive the point home.

Veteran said: "It's actually blasphemy against Christ to say that we can literally have no sin, as John even said..."

Veteran is right but he has not grasped that we are not denying that the potential for sin remains with us but are in fact saying that the way has been made for us in Christ that we do not have to sin if we would but completely give ourselves over to Christ sincerely denying ourselves and putting our carnal nature to death as we are told to do.

That surely is not blasphemy against Christ it is apprecition of what he means to us and for us.

Unfortunately many who read Romans 7:24-25 think Paul is saying we have to always sin. They cannot see that view is what diminishes the the power of Christ by underscoring it. That is what borders on blasphemy. It is as if they paid no attention to what Paul went on to say in chapter 8.

 

[Jake]

We have to remember, when we are in Christ, we are not starting at a defeated position, we are starting at an already overcoming position, a victorious position, Jesus has already done it, now He lives in us, we CAN and we DO overcome, because of what Christ has done.

What is impossible for man, is possible with God, all things are possible with and in Christ. We believe "into" Christ, our lives are hidden in Him, we are no longer living our lives, but His Life, and He has already overcome.

 

[Prentis]

Amen! It is about the power of Christ in us, not our strength. If Christ could walk perfectly in the flesh, and we have the same life in us, by this life we can. It requires sanctification and complete submission, and a changing of our character to us. Surely, this is a hard long work, like building a house, and it requires death to our old self. But with God, all things are possible! We are no longer slaves to sin.

 

[veteran]

We can never... become exactly like Christ in this flesh. I don't know why those who believe they can even bother reading the Romans 7 chapter

 

[Vengle]

We can in our spirit Veteran.

Remember that Christ is bathing the true church members in the water of the word for a purpose. (Many do not really allow that bath. And, they are false members only really pretending to be Christ's body while existing to destroy the reputation of christ in this world.) Ephesians 5:26

Like a bath this is a progressive thing. It is not a quick dip but an on-going bath. And for those that let go of all resistance to it, it benefits them, it transforms their mind to the ever growing more permanent destruction of that carnal mind replaced by the divine nature.

This is why Isaiah 11: 1-5 begins by relating the highly qualified leader we have over us, showing that he is totally capable of bringing about Isaiah 11:6-9.

And if we have cooperated, then, Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

Understand this Veteran: Romans 8:12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh."

We do not have to be debtors to the flesh. It is only Satan that wants us to be, as he is trying to diminish the power and ability we have in Christ to be active participants with Christ in bringing sin to nothing. Satan wants us to believe we are powerless while yet in this flesh.

 

[Prentis]

The issue is that today people do not believe in the power of the Spirit... Because no one experiences it.

If we came together truly, and seeked with all we have, and also on our own, I believe we would experience God in far greater measure, and actually walk as he did, as we were instructed. When one walks in the Spirit, and is full of the Spirit, he obeys God and has no place for sin in his life. Of course, remaining is another story. But I would say that's part of the training.

 

[veteran]

We can in our spirit Veteran.

Right, and that's the difference.

Newer Bible versions like the NIV doesn't do a strong separation about the spirit vs. flesh like the KJV translation does. Paul was strongly pointing out in Rom.7 that the flesh = sin. The law of sin he found at work against the "inner man" by The Spirit was his fleshy members. I don't want to go too deep on this, for it would loose quite a few here. But this is why Paul taught in Rom.8 that our spirit groans inside ourself (i.e., inside our flesh), seeking for the release from bondage it has been put in. He said not only us, but the whole creation seeks release from the bondage of vanity by Christ's redemption in the world to come.

Remember that Christ is bathing the true church members in the water of the word for a purpose. (Many do not really allow that bath. And, they are false members only really pretending to be Christ's body while existing to destroy the reputation of christ in this world.) Ephesians 5:26

Like a bath this is a progressive thing. It is not a quick dip but an on-going bath. And for those that let go of all resistance to it, it benefits them, it transforms their mind to the ever growing more permanent destruction of that carnal mind replaced by the divine nature.

I'm not promoting that we have a license to sin through Christ's grace. Don't get me wrong. But becoming holy unto Christ is about a daily walk with Him to stay in His grace, not a progressive attainment program where we become more and more holy. That thinking instead is what the pagans do, seeking through many spiritual excercises and practices to become progressively holy, until 'eureka', they attain to perfection (they wrongly think). The reality still is per Isaiah 64 that even at our best, we are as a unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags (Isa.64:6). So as we overcome one hurdle over our flesh to stay in Christ's grace, another one then appears thereafter, which is how it will continue until Christ returns to redeem us.

This is why Isaiah 11: 1-5 begins by relating the highly qualified leader we have over us, showing that he is totally capable of bringing about Isaiah 11:6-9.

God is going to bring that time of Isaiah 11 through His Son when He returns; that will be a work by Him, and not by us.

And if we have cooperated, then, Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

Understand this Veteran: Romans 8:12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh."

Well, since you brought up more of Rom.8, I'll go a bit deeper on it. Later, Paul shows how we groan inside our flesh (our spirit groans), seeking release from the bondage and vanity of the flesh.

Rom 8:22-26
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(KJV)

That redemption is not about our flesh body, for as Paul showed in 1 Cor.15:50, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) put on incorruption (spiritual body). The Holy Spirit today heals our flesh through our spirit inside. But the glory to be revealed is not redemption of our flesh. It's the redemption of our spirit and soul inside our flesh that's connected by a silver cord (Eccl.12:5-7).

We do not have to be debtors to the flesh. It is only Satan that wants us to be, as he is trying to diminish the power and ability we have in Christ to be active participants with Christ in bringing sin to nothing. Satan wants us to believe we are powerless while yet in this flesh.

Not being able to perfect while in the flesh is not about being a debtor, it's about the impossibility of a fleshy Salvation, which is what I'm trying to get yal to distinguish, since Paul did.


Rom 8:6-10
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Living according to the flesh lusts and desires is of a carnal mind. It cannot be subject to the law of God which is spiritual. This is why no one except our Lord Jesus Christ could ever be perfect in the flesh. It's why only He is The Saviour and we are not. Our flesh is destined to perish; it is not going to be redeemed.


9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(KJV)

With Christ in us, we are to look upon our flesh bodies as being already... dead, because of sin. Recall what Paul taught about the law of sin associated with our flesh back in the Rom.7 chapter.

 

[Perspectives]

Prentis your post #31 hits the nail right square on the head and ought to drive the point home.

Veteran said: "It's actually blasphemy against Christ to say that we can literally have no sin, as John even said..."

Veteran is right but he has not grasped that we are not denying that the potential for sin remains with us but are in fact saying that the way has been made for us in Christ that we do not have to sin if we would but completely give ourselves over to Christ sincerely denying ourselves and putting our carnal nature to death as we are told to do.

That surely is not blasphemy against Christ it is apprecition of what he means to us and for us.

Unfortunately many who read Romans 7:24-25 think Paul is saying we have to always sin. They cannot see that view is what diminishes the the power of Christ by underscoring it. That is what borders on blasphemy. It is as if they paid no attention to what Paul went on to say in chapter 8.

That's why Paul went on to say in Rom. 8:13, mortify (bring to a stand still) your members. We get mortar from this word and you know what mortar does when it sets up and dries. It's like a MORTgage, which is killed off a little at a time. The mortar that held together the tower of babel in the Hebrew translates to materalism, which this country is awash in. Until we lay down this body for the last time, sin will be in it. But, until then, the man of God keeps himself...1 Jn.5:18.

 

[Vengle]

Right, and that's the difference.

Newer Bible versions like the NIV doesn't do a strong separation about the spirit vs. flesh like the KJV translation does. Paul was strongly pointing out in Rom.7 that the flesh = sin. The law of sin he found at work against the "inner man" by The Spirit was his fleshy members. I don't want to go too deep on this, for it would loose quite a few here. But this is why Paul taught in Rom.8 that our spirit groans inside ourself (i.e., inside our flesh), seeking for the release from bondage it has been put in. He said not only us, but the whole creation seeks release from the bondage of vanity by Christ's redemption in the world to come.

Right, and the reason we groan in the spirit is because that is who we really are. We are vexed by having to drag along this identity that is like a second personality, one who we consciously decided we do not want to be. And that man of sin from Adam is real and a part of us that speaks in agreement with Adam's rebellion as it also wars against who we are and have chosen to be in the spirit. But to give up our fight and to live by the leading of that carnal man of sin speaking within us is to eventually be revealed a son fit for nothing but perdition.

I'm not promoting that we have a license to sin through Christ's grace. Don't get me wrong. But becoming holy unto Christ is about a daily walk with Him to stay in His grace, not a progressive attainment program where we become more and more holy. That thinking instead is what the pagans do, seeking through many spiritual excercises and practices to become progressively holy, until 'eureka', they attain to perfection (they wrongly think). The reality still is per Isaiah 64 that even at our best, we are as a unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags (Isa.64:6). So as we overcome one hurdle over our flesh to stay in Christ's grace, another one then appears thereafter, which is how it will continue until Christ returns to redeem us.

I know you are not promoting a license to sin and I have often thought to myself how refreshing to read your comments because they reflect understanding.

Whether this is progressive or not depends upon what aspect of it we are speaking to. This is happening now: 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ......... And this is happening now: Ephesians 2:21.

Ephesians 2:21 says wet are growing into that HOLY temple, now, not later. And that is no mock holiness if it be that really are in Christ and have lain down in death that man of sin from Adam.

No where are we told that after we commit that old man to death that he is supposed to keep getting up over and over again. Instead, from what John tells us we conclude that the rising up of that man means we have not as yet completely committed him to death. The old man yet lives and is yet that first time fighting being put to death.

We fail to see that we have only lain the old man down to die but have not yet gone as far as killing him. That is why we are able to keep taking his hand again and again, lifting him back up as he calls to us.

And that is Johns point. It is about being honest with ourselves about how committed we really are. And if we would be honest about it and continue to try to strengthen our commitment, then we are making progress.

That is what Paul meant when he said, "not as though I have already attained." He had to stretch forward. Stay committed to the process of growth in Christ.

One does not plant a seed and then poof, there is a plant.

God is going to bring that time of Isaiah 11 through His Son when He returns; that will be a work by Him, and not by us.

He is bringing it now as he teaches us the pure language. And like learning any language we get better at speaking it over time (if we stay committed to learning it). Zephaniah 3:9 is happening now and many are going to weep that they miss the boat (the ark of salvation which is Christ). There are many that speak about as if they have gotten aboard but they are delighted so much to stand outside and just talk about it that they never actually do get aboard. The pure language is learned aboard that ark, not outside of it. And as it took a year of days and nights for Noah's ark to come to rest, all during that time we are being taught for the purpose of growing.

The King James Bible which was influenced (probably unknown to its translators) by a certain amount of heresy leaves the word "salvation" off of 1 Peter 2:2 which actually says: "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby to salvation."

It becomes obvious when we observe people that old ideas die hard. People tend to hang onto what they were taught and to seek defense for it. Mormon/Psychologist Stephen Covey refers to that as paradigms. A person's previous experiences form their beliefs and those beliefs shape how they see things like wearing tinted glasses.

So because of the belief that salvation is secured from the moment they say "I believe in Christ", many will defend the KJV for leaving "to salvation" out of 1 Peter 2:2.

The silliness of that is that they think the know more than the many other educated Bible translators whose consciences would not let them do that.

Noticing these little things is why I feel even the KJV translators were sincere. They are just subject to the sway of forces as us all.

My point is that the idea that our salvation becomes irrevocably sealed in Christ is false. But that is a whole other discussion. It does shape how we see many other discussions, though.

Well, since you brought up more of Rom.8, I'll go a bit deeper on it. Later, Paul shows how we groan inside our flesh (our spirit groans), seeking release from the bondage and vanity of the flesh.

Rom 8:22-26

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

(KJV)

That redemption is not about our flesh body, for as Paul showed in 1 Cor.15:50, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) put on incorruption (spiritual body). The Holy Spirit today heals our flesh through our spirit inside. But the glory to be revealed is not redemption of our flesh. It's the redemption of our spirit and soul inside our flesh that's connected by a silver cord (Eccl.12:5-7).

I agree with you on that. I have vigorously protested Jehovah's Witnesses making it about our flesh and blood bodies. What that healing is, is the death of that carnality. That takes our physical body out from under slavery to it and thus out from under slavery to sin.

Not being able to perfect while in the flesh is not about being a debtor, it's about the impossibility of a fleshy Salvation, which is what I'm trying to get yal to distinguish, since Paul did.

Rom 8:6-10

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Living according to the flesh lusts and desires is of a carnal mind. It cannot be subject to the law of God which is spiritual. This is why no one except our Lord Jesus Christ could ever be perfect in the flesh. It's why only He is The Saviour and we are not. Our flesh is destined to perish; it is not going to be redeemed.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

(KJV)

With Christ in us, we are to look upon our flesh bodies as being already... dead, because of sin. Recall what Paul taught about the law of sin associated with our flesh back in the Rom.7 chapter.

Yes. I think it is there for us both but for the fine tuning. And as that fine tuning occurs we come closer and closer to speaking that one pure language among us. The language of God. (which I muse that 1 Corinthians 13: 1 is referring to as the tongues of angels.)

I like talking to you. The discussions are edifying.