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Does Satan has an end, or will he continue living forever?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by verzanumi24, Jul 28, 2008.

  1. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    I would like to say that am not fund of this part of Christian forums, because it's generally does not that edifying in my opinion, because we tend to argue our point baste on what we believe, in an attempt to convince each other against what they have concluded that what they believe is the truth. But I am gong to make an exception here; I'm going to ask a question about the faith of Satan, and what you as an individual believe will ultimately happen to Satan (I will tell you what the scripture has to say after I have gotten enough response)....here it is. Do you believe that Satan will be around forever? Do you believe that God will allow Satan to continue living?
     
  2. waquinas

    waquinas New Member

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    yes, yes but. First to be clear, am not an annihilationist and I do not care to debate or read any more about that topic.Said "but" because am not sure what burning/consumed forever in the lake of fire means exactly. Have some notion that such an existence does not constitute "living" at least as that term applies to anything which exists (living) now, including Satan. Can't but think it would transform things into something else, that is what fire does. So in some sense what was before being thrown in the Fire no longer exists, but I do think something remains and I do not think I would call that "living". So even though in a very real sense this is a second and final death, something remains. Just like our first physical death is not the end of our existence but a certainly a transition, we continue to exist.
     
  3. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    yes, yes but. First to be clear, am not an annihilationist and I do not care to debate or read any more about that topic.Said "but" because am not sure what burning/consumed forever in the lake of fire means exactly. Have some notion that such an existence does not constitute "living" at least as that term applies to anything which exists (living) now, including Satan. Can't but think it would transform things into something else, that is what fire does. So in some sense what was before being thrown in the Fire no longer exists, but I do think something remains and I do not think I would call that "living". So even though in a very real sense this is a second and final death, something remains. Just like our first physical death is not the end of our existence but a certainly a transition, we continue to exist.
    Ok, I understand; I am not looking for a debate as such, just asking what others like yourself believe. Of course, it would be nice if one have scriptures to support that opinion. But I am a bit confused by your answer though, or maybe you did not understand my question. Are you talking about Satan or sinners? My question is about Satan and of course his fallen angels, and will he/they keep on living or not? What do you think about this?
     
  4. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    I would like to say that am not fund of this part of Christian forums, because it's generally does not that edifying in my opinion, because we tend to argue our point baste on what we believe, in an attempt to convince each other against what they have concluded that what they believe is the truth. But I am gong to make an exception here; I'm going to ask a question about the faith of Satan, and what you as an individual believe will ultimately happen to Satan (I will tell you what the scripture has to say after I have gotten enough response)....here it is. Do you believe that Satan will be around forever? Do you believe that God will allow Satan to continue living?
    Ezekiel 28 is talking about Satan ("the prince of Tyrus) and in verse 18 tells what will happen to him:Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. He will be turned to ashes, and if something is turned to ashes they are done, finished.
     
  5. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Ezekiel 28 is talking about Satan ("the prince of Tyrus) and in verse 18 tells what will happen to him:Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. He will be turned to ashes, and if something is turned to ashes they are done, finished.
    Interesting, does that mean that Satan will actually become ash? I looked up the word "bring" in the Hebrew and it means Deliver. God will deliver ash to Satan. I believe that this is talking about Satan's works; all that Satan had worked so hard to accomplished will be burnt up right in front of his face. But you are correct though in that Satan will have an end, he will not be around forever. This should cause those who believe that sinners will be tortured in Hell forever to take another look at that belief. As for me, it is clear from the scriptures that sinners will cease to exist after they die the second death.Here is the part of the chapter that you left out that hit the nail right on the head.Ezekiel 28:19 (KJV) 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Here is how the American Standard Version puts it.Ezekiel 28:19 (ASV) 19 All they that know thee among the peoples shall be astonished at thee: thou art become a terror, and thou shalt nevermore have any being. Here is what the word that is translated NEVER in the KJV means.Hebrew Word: ‏אַיִן‎Transliteration: ʾayinPhonetic Pronunciation: ah'-yinRoot: as if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not existCross Reference: TWOT - 81Part of Speech: subst n neg adv with prepVine's Words: No as if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a nonentity; generally used as a negative particle :- else, except, fail, [father-] less, be gone, in [-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un [-searchable], well-nigh, without. Compare ('ayin). Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.Satan will be no more; God is not only creator but His is also sustainer. He sustains even Satan's life and the other fallen angels, known as demons. Angels have immortal life, which means they will live on, as long as God sustains them. But neither he, the demons or any of the angels in heaven do not not have eternal life....only God does.But the amazing part about this is that God has given us (His people) eternal life. The very life that God has, He has given it to us. The very life that sustains all things, God has given us that life as well to have. God's amazing love for us is so great that He not only wants us to have an endless life, but to have uncreated life; His life. We truly have life and not simply creatures that are sustained by God. Of course, this is not as we speak apparent, but when Jesus returns it will become so. We will have the power to create and sustain life just like God does....but I am getting off topic here.
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I agree with Tom also before one can get the full answer to this they need to learn all the names of Satan. As Tom has pointed out the prince of Tyrus is but one of his names, Death is another. We are told death and hell are destroyed in the Lake of Fire that is die the second death which is the death of your very soul that is cease to exist this is Satans fate.Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Satan is also the Son of PerditionPerdition ......apōleia ä-pō'-lā-ä (Key) 1) destroying, utter destructiona) of vessels2) a perishing, ruin, destructiona) of money[​IMG] the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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  8. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    I agree with Tom also before one can get the full answer to this they need to learn all the names of Satan. As Tom has pointed out the prince of Tyrus is but one of his names, Death is another. We are told death and hell are destroyed in the Lake of Fire that is die the second death which is the death of your very soul that is cease to exist this is Satans fate.Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Satan is also the Son of PerditionPerdition ......apōleia ä-pō'-lā-ä (Key) 1) destroying, utter destructiona) of vessels2) a perishing, ruin, destructiona) of money[​IMG] the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
    I disagree about knowing all the names of Satan before anyone can get a full answer, as long as the reader knows whom God is addressing in Ezekiel 28:19. Some times we make simple things a lot more complicated than they really are. But then again, I realize that what might be simple and straight forward to one person may not be to another….this is not intended as a put-down, just stating a reality.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    God uses names/descriptions to depict certain aspects or details of a person to show the reader a fuller picture of what he is telling us that is to give one a deeper understanding. Imagine trying to understand Christ without understanding he is called the Lamb, the shepard, saviour,the King ect. these are all aspects of Christ that give us a better picture. It is the same with Satan to try to understand all God tells us of him we need to know his names/descriptions. So you are free to disagree but if you want to understand what God tells us about him you need to know his names/descriptions. How one can think names like the serpent, the beast, the Son of perdition, the annointed cherub, the deciever, ect. are not important to understanding who he is and the part he plays in Gods plan, and understanding Gods word to us that thinking is quite beyond my understanding. Why do you think we are told of them if they do not matter??
     
  10. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    God uses names/descriptions to depict certain aspects or details of a person to show the reader a fuller picture of what he is telling us that is to give one a deeper understanding. Imagine trying to understand Christ without understanding he is called the Lamb, the shepard, saviour,the King ect. these are all aspects of Christ that give us a better picture. It is the same with Satan to try to understand all God tells us of him we need to know his names/descriptions. So you are free to disagree but if you want to understand what God tells us about him you need to know his names/descriptions. How one can think names like the serpent, the beast, the Son of perdition, the annointed cherub, the deciever, ect. are not important to understanding who he is and the part he plays in Gods plan, and understanding Gods word to us that thinking is quite beyond my understanding. Why do you think we are told of them if they do not matter??
    This does not apply in this case; not everything in the Bible is symbolic. Anything or any one that is symbolically represented as something else, the Bible often explains or tells us what those symbols mean. And sometimes the Bible just speaks plainly. This is the reason why I said that we sometimes make something that is simple, seems so complicated. I suggest to those who disagree with me that Ezekiel 28: 19 is not talking about Satan, then tell me who is it referring to?
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    This does not apply in this case; not everything in the Bible is symbolic. Anything or any one that is symbolically represented as something else, the Bible often explains or tells us what those symbols mean. And sometimes the Bible just speaks plainly. This is the reason why I said that we sometimes make something that is simple, seems so complicated. I suggest to those who disagree with me that Ezekiel 28: 19 is not talking about Satan, then tell me who is it referring to?
    You are just plain mistaken it most certainaly does apply and is the exact same thing as I pointed out and scripture bears it out. all Im saying is you can not understand the way that Satan plays into Gods plan if you ignore the names he is called. I agree not every thing is symbolic but that doesnt mean you can just assume what is and is not. I do believe Eze 28 is talking about Satan. I believe I said that is one of his names.
     
  12. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    You are just plain mistaken it most certainaly does apply and is the exact same thing as I pointed out and scripture bears it out. all Im saying is you can not understand the way that Satan plays into Gods plan if you ignore the names he is called. I agree not every thing is symbolic but that doesnt mean you can just assume what is and is not. I do believe Eze 28 is talking about Satan. I believe I said that is one of his names.
    Well then, there is no real disagreement because my point was to show in that chapter and verse, contrary to what I was made to believe as a child growing up that Satan will not exist forever, which Ezekiel 28 plainly says.
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Im not sure I understand what you saying Satan does not last forever he is the Son of Perdition (to be utterly destroyed) He is the onlt one that has already been judged to die.there is no sin in the New heaven and New earth Satan (death) is turned into ashes dies the second death cease to exist at the End of the MilleniumThats why you need to know his names to know his deeds and his fate.
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Notice the names he is called in these verse's we would not know Satan was the serpent here without leaning what scripture says of his names Names are important to understanding scripture thats wht God somtimes changed peoples names to depict a change Example: Abram to Abraham was an important one. 2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
     
  15. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Im not sure I understand what you saying Satan does not last forever he is the Son of Perdition (to be utterly destroyed) He is the onlt one that has already been judged to die.
    And that is what I said....I am in agreement with you on that....He will not be around for ever...he has an end.(kriss;55819)
    there is no sin in the New heaven and New earth Satan (death) is turned into ashes dies the second death cease to exist at the End of the MilleniumThats why you need to know his names to know his deeds and his fate.
    I don't agree with you about Satan dying the second death; he cannot die the second death when he never died the first time. Those who die the second death are human beings who had lived before, but still reject salvation. And I also don't agree with the term death for Satan, because Satan will not die, he will simply cease to exist, because God will simply will him out of existence. For Satan to die, he would have to have a body, because it is the body that dies and not the spirit....spirits do not have a body.
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    [​IMG] Glad we agree on Satan but you are have the wrong idea on the second death it is the death of ones soul/spirit that is to cease to exist. Yes some who never become believers will also be blotted out but Satan is the only one currentley that has already been judged to die this death ,that is the second death. The second death has nothing to do with the flesh body. Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. This is the second death your soul is destroyed and only God can do this.
     
  17. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    [​IMG] Glad we agree on Satan but you are have the wrong idea on the second death it is the death of ones soul/spirit that is to cease to exist. Yes some who never become believers will also be blotted out but Satan is the only one currentley that has already been judged to die this death ,that is the second death. The second death has nothing to do with the flesh body. Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. This is the second death your soul is destroyed and only God can do this.
    But as I said before the second death is not talking about Satan; it's talking about unrepentant sinners who had refused to repent after they were brought back from the dead; they will die a second time, never to be brought back; they will cease to exist, even the memory of them will be forgotten.Those who have partake of the first resurrectionRevelation 20:6 (KJV) 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Those who have been resurrect from the dead at Jesus' second coming are these people. But these are not the only ones that are dead. The person who have died without hope is also among the dead, and you cannot have a second death without having people who had died the first time. These people will be resurrected at the end of the Millennium.Here are a few examples42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here. Matthew 12:41 (ESV) 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. And Revelation 20; pay close attention to the last part, verse 5. The part that says "This is the first resurrection" is not talking about those mentioned as the “rest of the dead”. It is just there to let the reader know that the ones who sat upon thrones and the ones that were beheaded are among the first resurrection.Revelation 20:4-5 (KJV) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. The resurrection of the just (the converted) and the unjust (unconverted)Acts 24:15 (ESV) 15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. If any of these people that God will resurrect refused to repent, they will suffer the second death....in other words, they died once, and they will die a second time. But this time both the body and the spirit will be destroyed, unlike the first time when it was only the body that was destroyed/rot in the grave.Isaiah, speaking under God's inspiration said this about Satan's fateIsaiah 14:19-20 (Darby) 19 but thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, covered with the slain—those thrust through with the sword, that go down to the stones of the pit: like a carcase trodden under foot. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial; for thou hast destroyed thy land, hast slain thy people. Of the seed of evildoers no mention shall be made for ever. Those whom Satan will not join with in burial are those human beings that he had deceived. He (Satan) will see the end result of all that he had worked so hard for: nothing left but dead bodies or ash, as they are consumed in the flames. Satan will be the last to go...he will not die as I said before, God will simply will him out of existence....spirits cannot die, but they can be willed out of existence.
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I dont disagree with alot of what you say but the first resurrected are the Elect the overcomers that make it to the End. Then we are all changed into incoruptable spirit/soul bodies.There is no flesh at this point heaven is on earth and flesh and blood can not enter heaven reguardless of where it is.The first resurected are not subject to the second death, which is the death of the soul, because they have proved themselves worthy and have received immortality. All others will be subject to the second death the death of the soul whivh onlt God can killthis includes Satan and all who follow him. However Satan is the only one already judged to this fate. During the millieum all that are not of the first resurected will be taught then Satan is losed a short time to test them if they still refuse to follow Christ they will die the second death that is cease to exist. 1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Its just my opinion but I would be cautious believing everthing taught by Darby
     
  19. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    I dont disagree with alot of what you say but the first resurrected are the Elect the overcomers that make it to the End. Then we are all changed into incoruptable spirit/soul bodies.There is no flesh at this point heaven is on earth and flesh and blood can not enter heaven reguardless of where it is.
    But we do have several minor disagreements, and the other one is the Bible did not say that we will have spirit body, it simply said, a spiritual body. A spiritual body is not the same as spirit body, anymore than the Bible being a spiritual Book, then take that to mean that the Bible is a spirit Book. In fact there is no such thing as a spirit body....you will not find spirit body in the Bible. Spirits or angles and God by nature are bodiless. We will have a physical immortal, but spiritual body.1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (kriss;55887)
    Its just my opinion but I would be cautious believing everthing taught by Darby
    I have never studied his writings and I am not the kind of person that believe everything that I hear or read, no matter who that person claims to be. Unless it's the Bible it self, and I don't limite myself to just one or two translations.
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Well I can not agree completly with that statement We were created as souls with a spirt... or spirt with a soul... how ever you want see it Its how God foreknew us ...flesh is only a temporary state in this age .. it will never exist again our true self is what returns to the father at death of the flesh.. it is what we will return to at the changing this is not a ghost body it has substance Just as Christ could be seen and touched and eat after his resurection. He is our example of incoruptable body... incorubtable means we can not die of the things our flesh body dies from.. old age ect. We can only die if God kills our soul thats why its called the second death if God kills our soul we are no longer remembered..cease to exist. We will have substance live on earth with Christ as our King but we are not flesh. To be Flesh is to be in sin. And as I have stated flesh and blood can not enter heaven and heaven is where God is.
     
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