Does the Old Testament teach a pagan religion that Jesus came to overthrow?

[St. SteVen]

Many have noticed the disconnect between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Even positing that there are two different Gods described.

And what about the comparative messages?
The old Testament as unyielding law and the New Testament and merciful grace.

And Jesus certainly didn't support the status quo of the religion in Israel.
And that religion hated and even murdered Him.

John 1:17 NIV
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[Deborah_]

Jesus definitely came to overthrow the "religion" that the scribes and Pharisees had made out of the Law. But not the Law itself. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them." (Matthew 5:17)
If you're going to quote John 1:17, you must bear in mind the preceding sentence: "Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given." Because there's plenty of grace in the Old Testament (see e.g. Galatians 3:18)

 

[HealthyShape]

Why would you call the Old Testament doctrines "pagan"? Such terminology looks confusing.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus definitely came to overthrow the "religion" that the scribes and Pharisees had made out of the Law. But not the Law itself. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them." (Matthew 5:17)

That is a much misunderstood verse from my perspective.
Jesus explained what He meant after His resurrection. It was the Books of the Law and the Prophets
that would not be abolished but fulfilled, not the laws themselves.

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

If you're going to quote John 1:17, you must bear in mind the preceding sentence: "Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given." Because there's plenty of grace in the Old Testament (see e.g. Galatians 3:18)

That's a good point.
What grace was already given?

 

[Deborah_]

Jesus explained what He meant after His resurrection. It was the Books of the Law and the Prophets
that would not be abolished but fulfilled, not the laws themselves.

How can the "books" be fulfilled separately from what they contain? That makes no sense to me at all. Jesus actually said, "Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." (Luke 24:44)

What grace was already given?

God's promise to Abraham (Galatians 3:18), God's justification of Abraham through his faith (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:1,2), God's choice of Israel apart from merit (Deuteronomy 7:7,8).
It's often forgotten that the Law was given to a people already chosen by grace.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Jesus explained what He meant after His resurrection. It was the Books of the Law and the Prophets
that would not be abolished but fulfilled, not the laws themselves.

How can the "books" be fulfilled separately from what they contain? That makes no sense to me at all. Jesus actually said, "Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." (Luke 24:44)

Prophecies are fulfilled, not laws.
The books were not abolished, but the laws were. (obsolete)

Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

 

[Deborah_]

Prophecies are fulfilled, not laws.

Christ fulfilled the Law by keeping it - so we don't have to.

Christ fulfilled the sacrifices by becoming one Himself.

The law was also prophetic. The festivals, for example, pointed to what Christ would do (and will do when He returns).

Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

The covenant isn't quite the same thing as the law. The law was part of the covenant. The covenant could only be set aside because the law was fulfilled.

 

[HealthyShape]

Christ fulfilled the Law by keeping it - so we don't have to.

We would not need to keep the Law anyway, because we are not Jews.

Many Christians read the Bible so much that they forget who they are. We, Christians from Gentiles, are not saved from the Mosaic Law or from breaking the Mosaic Law. The Old Testament is not about us or about our ancestors/nations.

 

[St. SteVen]

Christ fulfilled the Law by keeping it - so we don't have to.

Did He keep the Sabbath?
Or teach others to by word or example?

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 9:16 NIV
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

 

[Soyeong]

Many have noticed the disconnect between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Even positing that there are two different Gods described.

And what about the comparative messages?
The old Testament as unyielding law and the New Testament and merciful grace.

And Jesus certainly didn't support the status quo of the religion in Israel.
And that religion hated and even murdered Him.

John 1:17 NIV
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

No. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), so there are not two different God's being described. There is law and merciful grace in both the OT and the NT. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are the weightier matters of the Law of Moses. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so the has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Psalms 119:142, the Law of Moses is truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example.

 

[St. SteVen]

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are the weightier matters of the Law of Moses.

He was speaking to the teachers of the law and Pharisees, not to us.

grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example.

Did He keep the Sabbath?
Or teach others to by word or example?

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 9:16 NIV
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

 

[NayborBear]

Prophecies are fulfilled, not laws.

I think we can safely say that "each" of these are the Word of God.
Prophecies being "events" that shall come to pass. Some sooner? Some later? And some? Much later.
Now the "Law", which was "made for man" were rules and/or conditions that "Yah'-uh-'Vay" established as that/those which must (not should) be adhered to in order for man to keep in "Yah'-uh'-'Vay's" "Love and Wisdom and Grace, and Blessings!" IOW? Covenant!

The books were not abolished, but the laws were. (obsolete)

If by abolished, you mean "non-cannonized?" Then this would be an incorrect statement. As there are more than several "books, letters, etc"
That were not included in the cannonization process, of the which there have been more than several iterations and translations, and writings published attesting to the presence of the existence of with detailed excuses as to the why they were "abolished."
And? To the which as of this writing, there would be more than several religious institutions, denominations, as well as scholars insisting to the "Inerency" of their "cannonized" Bible. Which in essence maintains that "God has no interest in speaking to His children EXCEPT by and through this cannonized bible." AND NOWHERE ELSE! (with attitudes like this, it is with little wonder eh? )

Which brings us to "the law", and the how's and why's it "became" obsolete! And as to "Yah'-uh-'Vay's" Love and Grace towards an evil generation!
I'll try and list these in a chronological order. Satan (serpent), (non agrarian) Cain, to which with GOD'S "Mark" upon him and Cain's wishing it to be "hidden" (so that all who met him wouldn't slay him), and Cain's need, if you will to survive and prosper, mandated Cain in the creating "Alternative Methods", to which he had very much input from his daddy (satan)!
Which brings us to? "Seductive Creature Comforts!" IOW? An Apostasetic Mindset!
Leading to a "lawless and rebellious" perpetuating generation!

And "Yah'-uh-'Vay" knew this would occur due to the "weakness of the flesh" of man, and a/the greatest "con job" ever, in Cain's daddy causing man in believing that daddy didn't exist!
(fast forward several thousand years)
To which Christ's Disciples became fully cognizant of, only after Christ's being resurrected from the grave and His ascension into the heavens!
To which Christ's Disciples and those "sent forth" (Apostle's such as Paul) bore witness, or strove to bear witness to in their establishing Christ's "called out from the world" Church!

 

[Soyeong]

That is a much misunderstood verse from my perspective.
Jesus explained what He meant after His resurrection. It was the Books of the Law and the Prophets
that would not be abolished but fulfilled, not the laws themselves.

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

That's a good point.
What grace was already given?

Christ fulfilled the Law by keeping it - so we don't have to.

Christ fulfilled the sacrifices by becoming one Himself.

The law was also prophetic. The festivals, for example, pointed to what Christ would do (and will do when He returns).


The covenant isn't quite the same thing as the law. The law was part of the covenant. The covenant could only be set aside because the law was fulfilled.

Jesus did not invent the concept of fulfilling the law, so we should seek to understand what he meant within the context of what it meant within Judaism before Jesus said that he came to fulfill it in the way that his audience would have understood him rather that retroactively insert a future even that Jesus made no allusion to with the assumption that Jesus had no intention of his audience understanding what he meant. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to relax the least part of it, so Jesus fulfilling the law should not be interpreted as meaning the same thing as abolishing it or as relaxing even the least part of it. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus proceeded to fulfill the law throughout the rest of the chapter by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so again it refers to correctly obeying it as it should be, moreover, it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that Jesus did on the cross to remove our salvation by loving our neighbor for us so that we don't have to. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so that should be interpreted in the same way that you interpret Jesus fulfilling the Law of Moses.

 

[Soyeong]

He was speaking to the teachers of the law and Pharisees, not to us.

In Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations everything that he taught them.

Did He keep the Sabbath?
Or teach others to by word or example?

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 9:16 NIV
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

Sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so the position Jesus was sinless is the position that he never broke the Sabbath while the position that Jesus broke the Sabbath is the position that he sinned. In John 5:18, it accurately states the reason that they had for wanting to kill Jesus, however, they were incorrect think that Jesus had broken the Sabbath. It is contradictory to think that both Jesus was correct about it being lawful to heal on the Sabbath and that the Pharisees were correct that Jesus broke the Sabbath by healing on it. It is lawful to heal on the Sabbath, so those Pharises were incorrect.

 

[Soyeong]

We would not need to keep the Law anyway, because we are not Jews.

Many Christians read the Bible so much that they forget who they are. We, Christians from Gentiles, are not saved from the Mosaic Law or from breaking the Mosaic Law. The Old Testament is not about us or about our ancestors/nations.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to follow the Law of Moses by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what Christ taught. While Gentiles do not need to become Jews in order to become followers of Christ, Gentiles can't follow Christ by refusing to follow what he taught.

The position that Gentiles do not need to obey the Law of Moses is the position that Gentiles do not need to refrain from sin, do not need salvation from sin, do not need the Gospel, do not need grace, do not need faith, and do not need Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness.

 

[Deborah_]

Did He keep the Sabbath?

Yes. What He didn't keep were all the hundreds of extra rules that the Pharisees had added to the original law. So in their eyes, He was "breaking" it, but in God's eyes He wasn't.

 

[Bob]

Thank you for the post.

There is some support for your thinking in the book, “How to Read the Bible and Still be a Christian,” by JD Crossan. His main theme is: “The biblical God is, on one hand, a God of nonviolent distributive justice and, on the other hand, a God of violent retributive justice. How do we reconcile these two visions?”

Question: Did Jesus reconcile these two visions for us?

Blessings.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes. What He didn't keep were all the hundreds of extra rules that the Pharisees had added to the original law. So in their eyes, He was "breaking" it, but in God's eyes He wasn't.

The most basic rule of the Sabbath is no work. But what does Jesus say?

John 5:16-17 NIV
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him.
17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

 

[St. SteVen]

Question: Did Jesus reconcile these two visions for us?

He warned of a judgement, but grace was the primary message.

 

[HealthyShape]

Yes. What He didn't keep were all the hundreds of extra rules that the Pharisees had added to the original law. So in their eyes, He was "breaking" it, but in God's eyes He wasn't.

I think this may be a misunderstanding of the situation. There was no strict separation between "the original" law and the interpretation of the Jewish religious authorities.

“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."
Mt 23:2-3

These are the words of Jesus.

Who was breaking the Sabbath according to Pharisees, was breaking the Sabbath according to Jesus, too. There did not exist any "private keeping of the Law, while ignoring the religious instructions for the Law" as some Christians today are imagining.