Doubt: Am I Really Saved?
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What part of my reasoning do you disagree with?
Always Believing
Active Member
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
If not for the Lord shortening the days, no flesh would be saved at all. No exceptions no qualifiers.
The Bible is speaking of flesh on earth.
Seriously? reading the Bible to see how you will go to heaven no matter what you believe nor how you live on earth? That's not trying to suit yourself?
Why? we're all going to heaven anyway, so what's the big deal. You act like it's important to believe what the Bible says, as though it mattered in the end.
Are you now saying it's somehow important to 'believe' the truth? Is your gospel telling everyone we're all going to heaven anyway, but then only 'if' we believe...
True, that's exactly what Isaiah said right after prophesying what the Lord and Savior is saying to His own people. Not the world.
Context, context, context.
All flesh of muskrats and anteaters and polar bears shall see the salvation of God. That's it. Period.
Thank you Dante.
Oh no, not a all. Tut, tut, we wouldn't want to soften up anything, now would we.
In this life yes.
I'm thinking I don't need to ask you if your not sinning. I'm thinking you don't believe that is possible in the flesh. I'm thinking that's why you have white linen waiting for your future brother Assyrian Pharaoh too.
Ha! well why didn't you say your a neo-Catholic teaching bogusly 'sacred' traditions of men's daydreams? We could have skipped all the wrangling over nothing but a bunch of stupid stuff.
The JWs do away with hell too. They just have the wicked get extinct. You're more all-loving like God and have the wicked live as gods forever. The serpent was right afterall.
You're knowledge of God's all-loving is as good as your Catholic tradition.
God loves all the ants, but I don't think He's saving them for glory.
Sinners don't.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
God comes to save sinners, not scoop them up into His heavenly kingdom.
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Context, context, context.
Souls aren't saved as by fire, when their ministerial works are burned.
The righteous are judged for their works of ministry, not for their works of evil.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
Context, context, context.
They will be given up by hell and the sea, and then be judged by their works, and those not in God's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.
No man is saved by going to hell. There is no purgatory after the death. The only purgatory that can get our attention to repent is now on earth.
Concepts yes, Bible teaching no.
In any case, I don't try to dispel people of their false traditions after the first or second try.
Always Believing
Active Member
Sinlessness is be cleansed of all lust of the heart and deeds of the body:
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Sinlessness in Christ only lasts as long as sinless of the spirit and flesh.
No one while sinning is forgiven nor saved at the time of doing unrighteousness and ungodliness.
He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God is not committing sin; for his seed is remaining in him: and he cannot be sinning, because he is born of God.
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that is doing evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Jesus not only means it but does it. We walk hand in hand with Him only so long as we are walking as He walks.
Why not? Sinlessness is being perfectly clean inside and out.
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
Perfectionism is only after the resurrection, where our spiritual mind is made perfect so that like God on the throne we can't even be tempted to sin anymore.
Jesus was perfected after His own temptations. Tempting thoughts to sin is imperfection not sinning.
Being perfect as Jesus is on earth is being wholehearted and completely given to God, yet still suffering temptation.
The difference between sinners and saints is saints suffer and endure and hate temptation. Sinners make decisions whether to do it at the time or not. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't.
Yes. I believe he was speaking of his own trial of being double hearted at a time in romans 7.
It's called adding to our faith the things necessary to bear the fruit of the spirit with virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, loving kindness and charity.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Christians who don't care or want to put forth the time and effort to do these things, but just slide into heaven by what they only believe are the lukewarm at best and hypocrites at worst. If we ever do find ourselves sinning and double minded then it's up to us to put a stop to it for the Lord and our soul's sake. We do that by calling on God's grace to crucify those deeds. But that's only for Christians who do care to continue in fellowship with Jesus and do know our souls depend on it.
And we are told that if we continue doing those necessary things of faith then we have assurance we will not be falling back into sinning again.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Very good! I agree totally.
Again, AMEN!
There are different levels of obedience. A baby Christian is given level one commandments to keep. As he lives up to that level he is sinless in the eyes of God. Phil. 3:16. But not as sinless as he will be when the Author and Finisher of our faith completes us in Him. That is called from faith to faith. Romans 1:16-17. At different times Paul would say that he had not reached perfection yet, but forgetting what was behind and reaching forward he finally made it in his last letter of the New Testament to his 'son' Timothy when he finished the course and kept the faith. The Author and Finisher of our faith had completed perfection in Paul.
Well he sure better have been better than what was depicted in Romans 7:14-15, when he was under the law before receiving Christ and as a Pharisee, killing Christians! Romans 8:2 shows he was freed from all that in Jesus, by walking in the Spirit.
Yes, it looks like we are on the same page again and even have the same favorite passages like Romans 3 and 2 Peter 1:2-11!
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So does God have a giant meat freezer that he is keeping all the bodies in? Flesh is used symbolically to mean people.
In Luke, he is talking about God's salvation of the soul, redemption of man to God. In Revelations, the author is talking about physical catastrophes and trials befalling mankind. It is saying no human lives would be spared.
I am not suiting anyone - I am reading what it says and believing it.
1 Corinthians 15 explains just what the purpose of life is and what the end result will be.
It is better to see God's favor than God's punishment. But notwithstanding, God did not create a huge swath of humanity just as evil subhumans cursed to suffer all their life then die and be destroyed or continue suffering. We are all the image of God.
Here is the full context. Tell me how this changes the meaning.
Isaiah 40
Comfort, comfort my people, says your God.
2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
and cry to her
that her warfare[a] is ended,
that her iniquity is pardoned,
that she has received from the Lord's hand
double for all her sins.
3 A voice cries:[b]
“In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord;
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be lifted up,
and every mountain and hill be made low;
the uneven ground shall become level,
and the rough places a plain.
5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,
and all flesh shall see it together,
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
The Word of God Stands Forever
6 A voice says, “Cry!”And I said,[c] “What shall I cry?”
All flesh is grass,
and all its beauty[d] is like the flower of the field.
7 The grass withers, the flower fades
when the breath of the Lord blows on it;
surely the people are grass.
8 The grass withers, the flower fades,
but the word of our God will stand forever.
You are making the same mistake as the Pharisees, who believed that only Israel is saved by God. Now it has come full circle, and many Christians preach that only Christians are saved by God. Christians who believe such a thing are just the Pharisees of our time.
Matthew 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Of course, they are all creatures of God.
Why are you so full of scorn? I am only attempting to discuss the Bible and use reason. Do you understand that I said what I said (all flesh will see the salvation, period), to emphasize it was the end of the train of thought in Luke 4-6? Luke 7 is the beginning of a new train of thought. Hence, period, end of lesson: it doesn't have any additional ideas attached to it.
If you believe that a man can be sinless in a single lifetime, then I would like if you could provide a demonstration of it for me.
Ephesians 4
4 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
I would say my views are closest to that of Origen of Alexandria.
I don't believe the wicked go extinct, or the ants. There is a reason God is all-loving. There is a reason we exist. It is in 1 Corinthians 15. Read it, and you will understand.
Life, all life, comes from God. It is the means by which God experiences the universe. God is the beginning and the end. In the end, God will be all in all. Everything came from God and everything will return to God.
(part 1)
Matthew 21:31
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Sinners (publicans and harlots) go into the Kingdom of God before those who despise others and trust in their own righteousness. In the original greek, the word used also translates as "lead ahead". This implies an ordering. Paul confirms this.
1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Here is the Kingdom of God:
Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Once again - Man is the vessel for God. Not some men, all men. Even the evil pharisees who killed Jesus, which is who this passage is addressed to.
In traditional doctrine, either we are sinless, or damned. So where in this doctrine is there room for "many lashes" or "few lashes" if people get thrown into one of two buckets?
Yes, context indeed
1 Corinthians 3
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Paul is talking about you, you are the temple of God.
1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
Malachi 3:3
He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.
In other words, God is the lake of fire. He destroys the wicked, to rebirth them, to refine them, into the holy.
I assure you, I have heard the mainstream viewpoints countless times, I understand them fully, and this is why I am forced to disagree with them. Because they portray a tyrannical and merciless God who hates most of mankind. Origen's viewpoints are far more rational than the modern doctrines, and better supported Biblically.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
"I really stopped worrying about evangelizing. If I'm asked about anything then I give and honest answer and the best answer is always Jesus."
Agreed. Your statement I highlighted in blue, really coincides with:
1 Peter 3:15
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"
Always Believing
Active Member
That's an interesting take on faith to faith. I've always wondered about that one.
The way I see it is always a matter of the here and now with yesterday gone and tomorrow may not come. We are only as saved as we are living now and today. There is no way on earth anyone can be doing unrighteousness as a child of the devil and also be a born son of God. As the Bible says all our righteousness of the past is being forgotten or all our past sinning. There may be deathbed confessions for forgiveness and salvation but there is no way there is any dying while sinning and saved.
Always Believing
Active Member
Yes that's the verse I'm talking about. I don't beat myself on the head anymore trying to get people to listen to me about Jesus. In a way they're right to consider me a nuisance rather than a witness. Only after I stopped all that did anyone ever ask my why I was so happy in the first place.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Yes that's the verse I'm talking about. I don't beat myself on the head anymore trying to get people to listen to me about Jesus. In a way they're right to consider me a nuisance rather than a witness. Only after I stopped all that did anyone ever ask my why I was so happy in the first place.
Always Believing
Active Member
They don't enter in as sinners and harlots but as the verse says, only those who add virtue to their faith. If you want to argue sinners into the kingdom and all souls into heaven, you can go right ahead. Doesn't matter to me.
Or argue God into all men.
That's not my tradition. The Bible speaks of the righteous by works who also become saved by faith. The sheep and goats are examples of living people being judged by their works a the beginning of His reign on earth, and the righteous sheep also become saved by faith.
And also argue all people as the temple of God.
You talk more like a new age universalist than anything else. You can fellowship with all people of world and call them brother and sister all you wish. I love all my neighbors but only born sons of God in Christ Jesus are my brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Children of the devil are not the temple of Christ.
Whoa!!! Hello mother ship! Beam me up Scotty! I must admit that is a new one and I never ever woulda thunk it. Now you're being entertaining, and though I'd be interested to here more it just gets less interesting the more out of space it gets.
The Lake of fire is not birthing out purified souls of men and women. Hey, here's one not written in Your book Lord. Ok, into the lake he goes to get him all washed up. Talk about scalding water.
Now you are showing your true colors with the world that accuses the God of the Bible as being a hateful God.
Just because He judges your unrighteous sinning just like anyone else without respect of persons.
If Origen agrees with you, then I'm glad i've never read him.
Your last words on the God of the Bible being hateful says it all about you.
Not only did the sinners and harlots go into heaven, but the pharisees too. As Paul said, each in their own order. There are firstfruits and there are last fruits. Each person is brought from an earthly, corrupt state to a heavenly incorrupt state.
Genesis 9:6
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
John 3
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Men are judged, but the spirit is incorruptible
1 Corinthians 15
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[f] also bear the image of the man of heaven.
In other words, you are a spirit of God. The person you think you are, is not who you really are, it is a false identity, a self-deception, brought about by the world.
Romans 2
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
All men are the temple of Christ and therefore shall be judged by Christ. Even the nonbelievers will be held to judgement, because the knowledge of the law is written in their hearts.
God is the God of all
Matthew 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Removing ourselves from sinners is not an invitation to condemn them, but it is only for our own benefit to not be corrupted by their worldliness. They must still be treated with love and acceptance.
Matthew 7
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Hebews 12
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
God made each person, so reason with me, why would God create a person, number all their days (IE write their fate) only to condemn them?
Psalm 139
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Job 33
4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
There is no logic in creating a soul just to torture and destroy it. Show me how mature your understanding is - tell me what you believe the purpose is that God created the universe. If you cannot answer this, you must admit that there are things you do not know.
You probably have without realizing it. His works are foundational to Christianity. He wrote 2000 treatises in the 3rd century and formalized most of the faith's beliefs for the first time.
Why do you hold so strong to the doctrines of the later church when Jesus warned they would be wolves in sheep's clothing? What have these men done to earn so much of your trust, and what has the early church done to deserve so much hatred, except to challenge your understanding?
Job 35
5 Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.
6 If thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? or if thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou unto him?
7 If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?
It is not God that is evil, it is mankind's ignorance and lack of understanding of God that is evil. Believe that God tortures people for eternity or don't - it doesn't change God's nature, it only changes your own. Good beliefs create good behavior, evil beliefs create hate and condemnation.
Matthew 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Always Believing
Active Member
That's our soul and spirit not our bodies. Jesus was actually made like in the image of our bodies of flesh and blood.
That is in the likeness of man's bodily image and not of a raccoon.
Men are soul, spirit, and body on earth and then only souls and spirit in hell or heaven until the resurrection of the dead bodies from the earth or the sea.
You are a new ager.
I am a soul and spirit created by God. I am not God nor His Spirit.
Now you seem to enter into the twilight zone of how nothing in this life is real and what it appears to be. When you bleed it is real blood.
What I know I are is a man with soul, spirit, and body of flesh and blood until the grave or I am changed immortal at His coming again.
This is not Paul saying that the naturally righteous are saved by thier personal righteousness but only that any person on earth can be a lawful and good neighbor. Only the sons of God are born again by faith to be lawful righteous and holy good neighbors.Romans 2
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Right. He creates all things created and makes all things made.
I agree.
Why not? If the end is all the same afterall our time on earth is but a puff of smoke and so would any time in hell if they all rise to dwelling with God and the Lamb forever.
You're preaching for righteousness and true holiness is faint praise at best.
I don't accept murerders, rapists, child molesters. I catch them and put them in jail untill justly tried and speedily executed. Or at least I would if I were in charge.
He doesn't. God isn't a writer of fate but of faith. Being born with sin nature is a lie for hypocrites to use for sinning and saying God made me do it rather than the devil. James exposes the lie that God temps man to sin which would be the case if He does allow men to be born with sin. Every child coming into the world today comes with the same natural flesh and blood of the dust as Adam and Christ lightens them with His light to seek and please God.
None at all including angels or any creature created by God.
You're false doctrine is from the world's false accusation against God.
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. The difference between me and you is one of faith. I believe God and His word whether I may like it or not. You don't. You also are ignorant of His word in many places because you don't want to believe Him.
We love him, because he first loved us. God first loved us by creating us in His image with power and spirit and heart to love Him forever. If we use that power to love ourselves more than God, then we won't dwell with Him forever. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.
If any agree with you then obviously at least one of those 3000 is a utopian dreamworld.
I don't. You are the latter church.
Ah yes, the good ol' only repeating what others taught you trick. (Get Smart)
Followed immediately by the not so good ol' false accusation spirit.
I don't mind my understanding being challenged by something worth challenging. Your stuff is just dismissible tonka toy stuff.
And so now the liberal doctrine of how murderers, rapists, and child molesters are just misunderstood.
Men that do evil are evil and them that do good are of God. We are judged by our works not by our 'understandings'.
Not God at all. Hell and the lake of fire tortures the wicked forever. He will run them out of His sight forever out of mind as well. And any of us doing as the wicked will end up the same place as the wicked. Not heaven.
A better expression of secular humanism I have never heard. It makes all men good if they just think good thoughts and God is the only One evil because He must hate men for condemning them of actually doing evil.
The only good faith is of Jesus and the only good word of faith on earth is the Bible. Touchy feel good monastic humming is not the Bible.
Absolutely. The wolves talk all soft sheep wool and love and bare their fangs for anyone speaking of righteous judgment and condemnation for evil deeds.
If you want to talk, we can talk, but if you just want to close your ears and condemn and insult then I wish you peace. You're free to believe as you choose.
Always Believing
Active Member
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