EASTER?

[Mungo]

The problem I see with this interpretation is that the Essenes were a fringe sect. Jesus was commanded by the law to observe Passover on the evening of 14 Nisan. To have done otherwise would have put him in violation of the law, which would have been sin.

The pharisees sat in the seat of Moses, and Jesus told everyone to do what they said. When the high priest commanded Jesus to solemnly swear under oath if he was the messiah, Jesus obeyed. So their observance of passover was the law, not the essenes'.

Also, I think any speculation about the upper room is just that - speculation. No one knows where it was.

Depends what you mean by "fringe".

Judaism had many sects.

According to the Catholic Cncyclopedia the Essenes were "One of three leading Jewish sects mentioned by Josephus asflourishing in the second century B.C., the others being the Pharisees and the Sadducees."

 

[tim_from_pa]

3 days and 3 nights was a Jewish idiom (actually wider than just Judaism). It doesn't mean literally 72 hours

Jesus never mentioned 72 hours..

Actually.... he does mention it indirectly. John 11:9. For anyone who knows about time keeping then or about time in general, that is an allusion to how they kept time, one being the hemispherium sundial. Then he says in another instance to precisely say "three days and three nights" , i.e. 3 full circuits of that dial. So, "three days and three nights" is then too precise a term so that it ceases to be an idiom. Yeshua wanted a precise time since the resurrection was the only sign he was Messiah. If he used an idiom, then 3 days and 3 nights can be interpretted any way one chooses to then convolute the scriptures to make a preconceived idea fit. That destroys his only sign and one worships a Messiah of their creation instead.

And to reiterate, these times, i.e. death, burial, and resurrection have to follow the Hebrew feast days otherwise they were not fulflled at their proper times, either. Simple as that, no need to make anything complicated here.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yeshua wanted a precise time since the resurrection was the only sign he was Messiah. If he used an idiom, then 3 days and 3 nights can be interpretted any way one chooses to then convolute the scriptures to make a preconceived idea fit. That destroys his only sign and one worships a Messiah of their creation instead.

While I don't doubt that he wanted a precise time, I do take issue with the claim that that was the only sign he was the messiah. There were many signs for those who had eyes to see; but the 3-days-3-nights sign was the only one he was going to give to the pharisees.

 

[tim_from_pa]

While I don't doubt that he wanted a precise time, I do take issue with the claim that that was the only sign he was the messiah. There were many signs for those who had eyes to see; but the 3-days-3-nights sign was the only one he was going to give to the pharisees.

I'm alluding to:

Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But
he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation
seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the
sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For
as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall
the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the
earth.

That's the only one needed to prove His Messiahship. Until that time, we could speculate all we wanted. But after the fact (resurrection), then the other signs shown they were works that accompanied Messiah which he also mentioned.

 

[Mungo]

Actually.... he does mention it indirectly. John 11:9. For anyone who knows about time keeping then or about time in general, that is an allusion to how they kept time, one being the hemispherium sundial. Then he says in another instance to precisely say "three days and three nights" , i.e. 3 full circuits of that dial. So, "three days and three nights" is then too precise a term so that it ceases to be an idiom. Yeshua wanted a precise time since the resurrection was the only sign he was Messiah. If he used an idiom, then 3 days and 3 nights can be interpretted any way one chooses to then convolute the scriptures to make a preconceived idea fit. That destroys his only sign and one worships a Messiah of their creation instead.

And to reiterate, these times, i.e. death, burial, and resurrection have to follow the Hebrew feast days otherwise they were not fulflled at their proper times, either. Simple as that, no need to make anything complicated here.

John 11:9: "Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?"

Actually there are 24 hours in a day.

 

[tim_from_pa]

John 11:9: "Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?"

Actually there are 24 hours in a day.

Two things;

Read the verse carefully and note he was talking about 12 hours in the daytime. You have to understand time to know where he was coming from.

Second point, the mention of 24 hours is a strawman and does not contribute to the points I was making. So, what does this mean? If he was in the grave 36 hours we'd conveniently switch back to 12 hour days to show that was 3 days?

Like I already said, you're packing in too much fudge in that small bag and it does not work.

 

[Axehead]

John 11:9: "Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?"

Actually there are 24 hours in a day.

Could be 12 hours in a day and 12 hours in a night.

 

[Mungo]

Two things;

Read the verse carefully and note he was talking about 12 hours in the daytime.

He didn't say daytime. You only want to be literal when it suits you

You have to understand time to know where he was coming from.

You could say that about Jesus using a Jewish idiom.

He was a Jew speaking to jews using a Jewish idiom that his hearers would have understood as such.

Second point, the mention of 24 hours is a strawman and does not contribute to the points I was making. So, what does this mean? If he was in the grave 36 hours we'd conveniently switch back to 12 hour days to show that was 3 days?

Like I already said, you're packing in too much fudge in that small bag and it does not work.

It's not a straw man its a valid point. You want to pick and choose idioms and literal when it suits you.

Genesis says - Evening came and morning came..... - the first day/ second day/ third day etc.Were those days 24 hours or 12 hours days?

Further if you take Jesus as refering to daytime, although he doesn't say that, then he wasn't telling the truth, or to be more exact he was being very economical with the truth, because there are only 12 hours of daytime twice a year since daytime was sunrise to sunset for a Jew.

Your theory is full of holes.

Could be 12 hours in a day and 12 hours in a night.

Only happens twice a year - see above

 

[Axehead]

What Jesus said is good enough for me.

Mat_27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

And we know, that God does not lie.

 

[tim_from_pa]

He didn't say daytime. You only want to be literal when it suits you

You have to understand time to know where he was coming from.

You could say that about Jesus using a Jewish idiom.



He was a Jew speaking to jews using a Jewish idiom that his hearers would have understood as such.

I already explained that. He was referencing 12 hours in the daytime because of the sundial reference I mentioned. Us gnomonists knew exactly where Yeshua was coming from because that's language we understand, like a code, and the precise 3 days and 3 nights (he said it I didn't) ceases to be an idiom for that reason alone. Don't people know about time or how to count to 3? I guess not.

You accuse me of the very thing you are doing yourself, i.e. picking scripture to suit your needs because you have to fit your ten pounds of fudge in that 5 pound bag, so you look for scriptures to fit the theory. You never came up on that yourself, nor would an unchurched person ever believe just by reading the Scriptures that the crucifixion happened either Thursday or Friday. You can't fit 3 days and 3 nights in that time span no matter how much song and dancing is done. You believe that because that's what tradition tells you and I can hear the desperation grabbing for straws trying to support your view.

Must I ask the question again why even a child knows that Friday sundown until predawn Sunday morning is as silly as it sounds? And yet we argue like being without a clue that it is, and yet any other function we know perfectly well how to keep a calendar.

Nisan 14 late: Passover, crucifixion
Nisan 15: 1st day of unleavened bread in the tomb
Nisan 16: 2nd day of Unleavened Bread in the tomb
Nisan 17: 3rd day of Unleavened Bread in the tomb
Nisan 18: Sunday Firstfruits
Nisan 14 he's alive until late in the day.
Nisan 18 he's alive again (resurrected)
That makes Nisan 15-17 the 3 full days, satisfies Matthew 12:40 and the feast days of Yahweh in Leviticus 23.
Simple as 1,2,3.

It amazes me how something like this, purely mathematical and precise, can be disputed. But I had the pleasure on another Christian forum where people did just that --- they argued how to multiply, add and subtract. I commented to the effect, "Only on a Christian forum will people debate something as precise as the nature of mathematics." And they were telling me why my answer was wrong (it was right BTW, because even calculators and computers backed up the answer, not because I said so) but they still believed what they wanted because they were sure they were right. Incredible.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
ChristRoseFromTheDead, on 31 Mar 2013 - 04:25, said : I don't think
John 13:1 supports your view

That's why I didn't reference verse 1 all by itself but included verse 2.

Verse 1 says: "before the feast of the Passover"

Verse 2 says: "and supper being ended"

In other words: according to John 13:1-2, Jesus was done eating his own
Passover before the Jews got to theirs, and John 18:28 corroborates it.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Mungo]

What Jesus said is good enough for me.

Mat_27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

And we know, that God does not lie.

Three days and three nights was a Jewish idiom.

He wasn't lying.

Jesus said "This is my body". & "This is my blood".Was Jesus lying then?
You guys always want to take that as figurative language and not literally.

But all of a sudden when it comes to "three days and three nights" Jewish idioms must be taken literally.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

HOWEVER, John 18:28 is very interesting. That indeed does say that Jesus ate the passover the night before 14 Nisan. So it does appear that you are right.

That would have to mean that he died on a Thursday, 14 Nisan, towards the end of the day; and was then in the tomb, 14 Nisan, 15 Nisan, 16 Nisan (the weekly sabbath), and then raised on 17 Nisan (Sunday).

Eh, my bad. He died on the 14th, would have been in the tomb the 15th, 16th and 17th, rising on the 18th (Sunday). Tim is right - Weds.

 

[Mungo]

I already explained that. He was referencing 12 hours in the daytime because of the sundial reference I mentioned. Us gnomonists knew exactly where Yeshua was coming from because that's language we understand, like a code, and the precise 3 days and 3 nights (he said it I didn't) ceases to be an idiom for that reason alone. Don't people know about time or how to count to 3? I guess not.

You accuse me of the very thing you are doing yourself, i.e. picking scripture to suit your needs because you have to fit your ten pounds of fudge in that 5 pound bag, so you look for scriptures to fit the theory. You never came up on that yourself, nor would an unchurched person ever believe just by reading the Scriptures that the crucifixion happened either Thursday or Friday. You can't fit 3 days and 3 nights in that time span no matter how much song and dancing is done. You believe that because that's what tradition tells you and I can hear the desperation grabbing for straws trying to support your view.

Must I ask the question again why even a child knows that Friday sundown until predawn Sunday morning is as silly as it sounds? And yet we argue like being without a clue that it is, and yet any other function we know perfectly well how to keep a calendar.

Nisan 14 late: Passover, crucifixion
Nisan 15: 1st day of unleavened bread in the tomb
Nisan 16: 2nd day of Unleavened Bread in the tomb
Nisan 17: 3rd day of Unleavened Bread in the tomb
Nisan 18: Sunday Firstfruits
Nisan 14 he's alive until late in the day.
Nisan 18 he's alive again (resurrected)
That makes Nisan 15-17 the 3 full days, satisfies Matthew 12:40 and the feast days of Yahweh in Leviticus 23.
Simple as 1,2,3.

It amazes me how something like this, purely mathematical and precise, can be disputed. But I had the pleasure on another Christian forum where people did just that --- they argued how to multiply, add and subtract. I commented to the effect, "Only on a Christian forum will people debate something as precise as the nature of mathematics." And they were telling me why my answer was wrong (it was right BTW, because even calculators and computers backed up the answer, not because I said so) but they still believed what they wanted because they were sure they were right. Incredible.

Sundial. I don't hear of any mention of a sundial in scripture. You are inventing that.

The Jewish day was sunrise to sunset and nothing to do with a sundial. You haven't attempted to address the points I made.

I think the ten pounds of fudge go to you.

I repeat

Genesis says - Evening came and morning came..... - the first day/ second day/ third day etc.Were those days 24 hours or 12 hours days?

Further if you take Jesus as refering to daytime, although he doesn't say that, then he wasn't telling the truth, or to be more exact he was being very economical with the truth, because there are only 12 hours of daytime twice a year since daytime was sunrise to sunset for a Jew.

If you want to avoid these problems ebcause they don't fit your theory then that's up to you.

"'Three days and nights' (Jonah 2:1 [1:17]) need NOT imply complete days; PARTS of a twenty-four-hour day counted as representing the WHOLE day. In early Jewish law, only after three days was the witness to a person's death accepted."
(Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary [Intervarsity Press, 1993], p 81)



"'Three days and three nights' is a special phrase used in the ancient world with the meaning 'long enough to be definitely dead.' It derives originally from the ancient pagan notion that the soul's trip to the after-world took three days and three nights. Jesus' use of the same phrase for the duration of his death before his resurrection (Mt 12:40) carries a similar force: it is a way of saying that he would really die, NOT that he would be literally dead for exactly seventy-two hours. 'Three days and three nights' was a Jewish idiom for a period covering PARTS of three 24-hour 'days-and-nights' (cf. 1 Sam 30:12-13; Est 4:16-5:1)." (New Bible Commentary, p 819,920 under Jonah 1:17/Matt 12:40)



"In ancient literature [three days and three nights] indicated a period so long that if someone appeared to be in the realm of death for that length of time, only divine intervention could bring him back to life. ...Three days may also simply mean a fairly long time (cf. 1 Sam 30: 12; Esther 4:16). In Jonah it heightens the picture of the great power of God who can save his disobedient messenger even after 'three days and three nights.' Much later Jesus' disciples on the way to Emmaus had given up hope because 'this is THE THIRD DAY since it happened' (Luke 24:21)." (The Books of Joel, Obadiah, Jonah, Nahum, Habakkuk and Zephaniah commentary by John D.W. Watts [Cambridge Univ Press, 1975], p 82f)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This whole thing hinges on what the sabbath is referring to in Leviticus 23:11. If the weekly sabbath, then Tim is right; if the first day of unleavend bread then Mungo is right. Do you want to keep arguing about something we can't know? Either explanation is good considering our current state of ignorance.

 

[Mungo]

This whole thing hinges on what the sabbath is referring to in Leviticus 23:11. If the weekly sabbath, then Tim is right; if the first day of unleavend bread then Mungo is right. Do you want to keep arguing about something we can't know? Either explanation is good considering our current state of ignorance.

You are right, we are wasting time. I'll "unfollow" this thread.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You are right, we are wasting time. I'll "unfollow" this thread.

I'm impressed by both of you. I will follow what you two say more closely in the future.

 

[tim_from_pa]

I'm impressed by both of you. I will follow what you two say more closely in the future.

Thanks.

I think the issue here is if Yeshua meant a literal 3 days and 3 nights, or "can we interpret it anyway we want" e.g. "inclusive reckoning" which is a fancy word justifying bad mathematics.

The problem with the latter, which the other party endorces, is that the way that's interpretted leaves room for any time span one wants, and therefore nullifies the whole purpose of mentioning 3 days and 3 nights. (I.e. what's the point in saying 3 days and 3 nights if it does not mean it?)

For example, the Friday crucifixionists claim that's day one (which on a Jewish calendar Yeshua was interred on Saturday actually since it was sundown and that began Saturday), then Saturday is day 2 and Sunday is day #3.

Problem is that the first and latter are parts of days and the second day a whole day --- inconsistent. In addition, Yeshua had to arise before Firstfruits which began Saturday sundown to fulfill the feast of firstfruits. So that would be, at the latest if we are allowing a little play here, Saturday after sunset because on a Jewish calendar that would be Sunday, and the priest would not wave the sheaf before Yeshua arose. They dilligantly got the wavesheaf after sundown, not some Sunday morning AM for those into Jewish calendars, feasts and prophecy.

So let's be reasonable, calm and logical about this. Is Friday Sundown to Saturday Sundown "3 days and 3 nights" even by inclusive reckoning? Not by a long shot. Sorry. Facts are facts whether one likes it or not.

The problem with the inclusive "reckonists" is that anything from 24 plus hours to 72 minus hours (1 to 3 days) can pass for "3 days and 3 nights" using their method. So, that makes anything possible. Do you think Yeshua was this imprecise? Think about it and you will come to the conclusion Yeshua was precise rather than imprecise since the sign of his Messiahship pivoted on this fact.

As for my sundial reference, that is what they used in those days. Instead of mouthing off about my "assumptions", I wonder if anyone here actually looked up a picture of a hemispherium or even know what it is? I thought not, but they are still going to tell me how to keep time and a calendar. And that calendar is Yahweh's so I guess I'm not the one to really take it up with.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
ChristRoseFromTheDead, on 31 Mar 2013 - 09:47, said: He died on the 14th,
would have been in the tomb the 15th, 16th and 17th, rising on the 18th (Sunday).
Tim is right - Weds.

Had Jesus been buried on a Wednesday afternoon, he would have been over
budget on nights since he allowed himself only three.

The thing to watch out for is that Jesus rose from the dead "on" the third day; not
on a fourth after the third day was over. (Matt 17:22-23, Mark 9:31, Luke 9:22,
Luke 18:33, Luke 24:6-7, Luke 24:21, Luke 24:46, John 2:19, Acts 10:40, and
1Cor15:4). People who insist upon accounting for a full 72 hours are like a blind
man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there.

Another thing to watch out for is the mistake of mixing and mashing days and nights.
According to Gen 1:3-5 and Gen 1:14-16; day is when the sun is up, and night is
when the sun is down. When people try to force twenty-four hour days into their
chronology; it always comes out wrong.

The easiest way to figure out the correct chronology is to work backwards from the
day Jesus rose from the dead, which according to the Bible was the first day of the
Jews' week; viz: Sunday. So then:

Third day = Sunday
Second day = Saturday
First day= Friday

Third night = Saturday night
Second night = Friday night
First night = Thursday night

Burial = Thursday afternoon

Buen Camino
/

 

[tim_from_pa]

Had Jesus been buried on a Wednesday afternoon, he would have been over

budget on nights since he allowed himself only three.

He wasn't buried that early, but as the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread was starting. I personally believe the resounding thud of the stone on the last act of burial occurred just as the last limb of the sun shone and went behind the horizon, as the gospels expressed the necessity to have him buried quickly due to the Sabbath drawing on. It was now the 15th, and the first night and in the tomb in time to start the Unleavened Bread feast.

3 days later would be the same time of the day, the last limb of the sun.

I don't think it went over budget by one bit. No matter what you say, that's 3 full days and nights in the tomb. Any other time, e.g. what you said and I already debated your position with you, are at best 3 full nights and two full days in the tomb, 60 hours --assuming he arises by sunrise on Sunday is the only way to stretch it out even to that point instead of arising Saturday sundown) . And if we allow that, then if we notice he would not have fulfilled the feast of firstfruits, so then we are back at square one creating our own time line and calendar instead of using Yahweh's which demands these events occur on the feasts. Yeshua had to be arisen by firstfruits, not sometime whenever he pleased during it otherwise he'd still be in the tomb part of that day. The resurrection and his first day back to life had to be a different event than the time and day in the tomb, just as his burial (the start of the 3 day 'countdown') was a different event than the crucifixion.

In short, I'm saying he did not arise Sunday morning, but Saturday late in accordance with firstfruits requirements, and that's only 48 hours (2 days and 2 nights after burial) using a Thursday model.

The only real rebuttal I'm hearing against the time line I'm stating and my view basically boils down to "3 days and 3 nights" is not really 3 days and 3 nights, and some other assumptions, including the inclusive reckoning theory. But in doing so, not only is the time Yeshua said he'd be in the grave reinterpreted, but in order for other models to fit requires these events to be occurring on times and dates other than the appointed feasts. I don't think anyone is taking these feasts seriously, nor do they understand about time apparently.