Easter

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, TODAY. Today it's is referred to as a WRITTEN Aramaic translation. Today it is accepted, back then it wasn't. Back then it was forbidden. Now have you actually read what he wrote or are you cutting and pasting again?

Soooo, why is it okay for YOU to use information from wikipedia and other sources without using actual quotes - but it's NOT okay for ME to do the same thing?? I'm quoting fro secondary scholarly Jewish sources for which I have given website information.

The more information I present, the more desperate your objections become . . .

Haha! Yeah... Sure! Why don't you tell us all what he was referring to! Explain this quote in context!

I just TOLD you what he was referring to - that ANY portion of an "onah" represents ALL of it.
And, as I explained - rather, as Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah explained - a Day and Night is an "Onah".

I will give you a full Biblical timeline once you stop throwing all these garbage references at me.
I seriously doubt you've read any of them. You are just cutting and pasting without researching them.

No - you're stonewalling because you CAN'T explain your way out of the Markan timeline.

Your case dies with Mark's Gospel because you've taken ALL of your verses from the other Gospels OUT of their proper context.

I've asked you 4 times now - POINT-BLANK to explain this timeline and you have failed.
You keep using the rabbinic argument as a red-herring - but I refuse to let this go . . .

 

[Jay Ross]

Sorry - but you misrepresented Mark's timeline.
Read the LAST part of my last post:
"There is no way to squeeze six consecutive NON-SABBATH days into the week without the final one being a Friday, This puts Palm Sunday on a Sunday, the Crucifixion on a Friday, and the Resurrection on the next Sunday."

It all starts on a SUNDAY - not a Friday.

What I had said was that the Palm Sunday event occurred on Saturday evening during the twilight hours of the day. That is it occurred on the first day of the week, which in the Jewish traditions began at sunset on the Sabbath day which when considered in todays' timeframe our Saturday during the twilight period of the day.

As far as misrepresenting Mark's timeline, that is your opinion as I can demonstrate when all of the gospels are harmonised in chronological order, Mark's gospel fits my brief summary given in my previous post.

Shalom

 

[BreadOfLife]

What I had said was that the Palm Sunday event occurred on Saturday evening during the twilight hours of the day. That is it occurred on the first day of the week, which in the Jewish traditions began at sunset on the Sabbath day which when considered in todays' timeframe our Saturday during the twilight period of the day.
As far as misrepresenting Mark's timeline, that is your opinion as I can demonstrate when all of the gospels are harmonised in chronological order, Mark's gospel fits my brief summary given in my previous post.

Shalom

Where do you get the idea that Jesus entered Jerusalem after sunset on Saturday?

 

[FHII]

I just TOLD you what he was referring to - that ANY portion of an "onah" represents ALL of it.
And, as I explained - rather, as Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah explained - a Day and Night is an "Onah".

Well, let me start with this one first. It'll explain my answer to your first objection. BOL, he was talking about a woman's period and how long she was considered to be unclean.

Here is a DIRECT quote from the Talmud Shabbat 9:3J:

J] It has been taught: R. Eleazar b.Azariah says, "A day and a night constitute a span, and part of a span is equivalent to the whole of it."

TALMUD Shabbat 9:3

I urge you to read the surrounding text and note what they are talking about and note they are NOT in agreement.

So he isn't making a general statement that applies to a fast like in Esther 4 or even anything remotely related to Jonah or how long Jesus was in the heart of the earth. He was talking about regulations regarding a woman's period.

If that's not enough, the term "onah" isn't even in the Bible. Go to Strong's and look for yourself.

So as to you first objection, I am not quoting people. I am giving giving information on books, people and things like that.

I don't mind you using secondary sources for quoting people, but when the quotes are vague and don't tell the whole story, I am going to question them. This "onah" is a prime example of why. Now if you want to question my references, go right ahead.

Your case dies with Mark's Gospel because you've taken ALL of your verses from the other Gospels OUT of their proper context.

LOL!!! I haven't given them yet and you are already accusing me of taking them out of context! Pretty bold statement from someone who said that Mark 10:32 was "Day one".

 

[Jay Ross]

Where do you get the idea that Jesus entered Jerusalem after sunset on Saturday?

Have a read of the attachment to my last post. Then you may learn how they all fit together.

Shalom

 

[BreadOfLife]

Have a read of the attachment to my last post. Then you may learn how they all fit together.

Shalom

This file keeps crashing my system because of the dozens of layers on the PDF.
Can you simply explain what you mean?

Where do you get the idea that Jesus entered Jerusalem after sunset on Saturday?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, let me start with this one first. It'll explain my answer to your first objection. BOL, he was talking about a woman's period and how long she was considered to be unclean.

Here is a DIRECT quote from the Talmud Shabbat 9:3J:

J] It has been taught: R. Eleazar b.Azariah says, "A day and a night constitute a span, and part of a span is equivalent to the whole of it."

TALMUD Shabbat 9:3

I urge you to read the surrounding text and note what they are talking about and note they are NOT in agreement.

So he isn't making a general statement that applies to a fast like in Esther 4 or even anything remotely related to Jonah or how long Jesus was in the heart of the earth. He was talking about regulations regarding a woman's period.

If that's not enough, the term "onah" isn't even in the Bible. Go to Strong's and look for yourself.

So as to you first objection, I am not quoting people. I am giving giving information on books, people and things like that.

I don't mind you using secondary sources for quoting people, but when the quotes are vague and don't tell the whole story, I am going to question them. This "onah" is a prime example of why. Now if you want to question my references, go right ahead.

Once again - you have it WRONG.

This isn't talking about a woman's period. It is talking about the amount of time AFTER a woman has had intercourse with her husband - and when she is finally considered to be "clean". In ANY case - the idiom exists regarding the "onah" - whether complete or partial, it is considered complete.

As for the term, "onah" itself - it simply refers to a 24 hour period.
Remember, Einstein - the Babylonian Talmud was NOT written in English . . .

LOL!!! I haven't given them yet and you are already accusing me of taking them out of context! Pretty bold statement from someone who said that Mark 10:32 was "Day one".

I was referring to your ORIGINAL statements regarding the Gospels surrounding the Crucifixion, Burial and Resurrection narratives, Einstein. Your abandonment of proper context is precisely WHY you are afraid to address the Markan timeline.

Don't respond until you are ready to address this timeline . . .

 

[Jay Ross]

This file keeps crashing my system because of the dozens of layers on the PDF.
Can you simply explain what you mean?

Where do you get the idea that Jesus entered Jerusalem after sunset on Saturday?

It is a large file generated using Word, Wimdows 10 version

 

[FHII]

Don't respond until you are ready to address this timeline . . .

What happens if I do?

 

[FHII]

This isn't talking about a woman's period. It is talking about the amount of time AFTER a woman has had intercourse with her husband - and when she is finally considered to be "clean". In ANY case - the idiom exists regarding the "onah" - whether complete or partial, it is considered complete.

Regardless... It does not prove its an idiom. You are taking context of a specific thing (and once again, it isn't even Biblical) and applying it across the board. Furthermore, you fail to acknowledge that not everyone agreed here. Did you catch 9:3K?

[K] And thus has it been taught contrary to the view of R. Eleazar b. Azariah, 'There are occasions in which there is a day and any small amount of time in addition, and yet [a woman] is clean. There may be two days lacking a [small] amount of time, and the woman will be unclean." [Hence part of a span is not equivalent to the whole of it.]

So I conclude 1. It is wrong g to take this quote and apply it to all Biblical situations; 2. If it really were a "well known" idiom, then they would all be in agreement, but they aren't.

for the term, "onah" itself - it simply refers to a 24 hour period.

No... Not always. I haven't given you enough information for you to properly define it yet.

Then again, you could spend some time a do a thorough researching all by yourself, if you like.

I was referring to your ORIGINAL statements regarding the Gospels surrounding the Crucifixion, Burial and Resurrection narratives, Einstein. Your abandonment of proper context is precisely WHY you are afraid to address the Markan timeline.

Oh really? And what would those statements be? I've barely mentioned them in this thread! I think I mentioned them twice... Once to note the differences of when he was discovered missing and then briefly to point out your error in "day one".

Why is it, by the way, you just want to stick with Mark? I'd rather look at all the accounts and evidence before making a judgment, but that's just me....

Don't respond until you are ready to address this timeline . . .

Sorry, but I can't honor that demand. You won't let me. If I don't address all your arguments I will never hear the end of it. I still have at least one more point to cover.

Sorry, I am not a cut and paste type of guy.

 

[FHII]

I am going to give the dog a bone (which actually is an idiom) and help BOL out.

Day 1 (Mark 10:32) "They were on the road, going up to Jerusalem..."
- Day 2 (Mark 11:12) "On the following day..."

I think Jay Ross touched on this... And of course BOL objected... But Mark 10:32 is not "day one". Between Mark 10:1 and 11:12 Jesus travelled front the Eastern side of the Jordan river

Jesus was on His way up to Jerusalem from Jericho on the afternoon of Friday. He arrived at Bethany around the time that the sun set, at the beginning of the Sabbath Day of worship.
After the sun had set on Saturday Jesus rode an ass into Jerusalem, whet into the Temple and then returned back to Bethany. The next day he went into the Temple once more to teach.

While I disagree with points of your timeline, I agree with what you say here... At least the point you made but perhaps not the dates.

Mark 10:1 finds Jesus on the Eastern shore of the Jordan River. He was making his way to Jerusalem (lodging in Bethany). But he stops off in Jerhico between verse 32 and 11:12. He does a significant amount of activity there.

There is no note that a day had passed between verse 10:1 and 32. The distance between Jerhico and Jerusalem is about 25 Km as a straight shot. That's 15.5 miles, again as a straight path. Add the couple of miles between the Jordan River and Jerhicho and then subtract the mile or two between Bethany and Jerusalem...

This is if you were flying and not taking a road through rugged terrain.

Let's put something in perspective. Jerhico is 850 feet below sea level. Jerusalem is 2474 feet above sea level and they are 15 miles apart. That's just assuming the hills aren't rolling and the road is straight. There is little chance that such a trip was made in a day.

If BOL wants to claim Mark 11:1 was day one,perhaps it would be acceptable. I don't know... I haven't even harmonized the gospels on my own yet. But clearly day one is not Mark 10:32.

 

[Jay Ross]

As requested here is a summary and the respective Gospel Passages tied to these events in Chronological order as considered by the author up to and including Monday: -

The Gospels arranged to reflect the chronological events of Jesus’ life from when he drew near for the last time to Jerusalem

1. Friday six days before the Passover.

a. As Jesus draws near to Jericho on his way to Jerusalem, he heals a blind man : - Mark 10:46-52, Luke 18:35-43
b. As Jesus passes through Jericho, he sees Zacchaeus, who had climbed up a tree, so he would be able to see Jesus as he passed by and invites himself to Zacchaeus’ house to stay for a day. : - Luke 19:1-10
c. Jesus heals two blind men as he leaves Jericho by touching their eyes. : - Matt 20:29-34
d. Jesus tells those around him a parable in response to their belief that the Kingdom of God was to appear immediately: - Luke 19:11-27
e. Jesus continues on ahead: - Luke 19:28a
f. Jesus draws near to Jerusalem and stops at Bethany. : - Matt 21:1, Mark 11:1a, Luke 19:29, John 12:1
g. Martha makes a meal for Jesus: - John 12:2
h. Mary anoints Jesus with ointment : - John 12:3-8​

2. Saturday’s, today’s timeframe, twilight after sunset

a. Crowds come to see Jesus and Lazarus: - John 12:9
b. The Chief Priests conspire to kill Lazarus: – John 12:10-11
c. Jesus sends two disciples ahead to find a colt. [Jesus will ride on this colt as he goes to Jerusalem for the finial time.] : - Matt 21:1b-4, Mark 11:1b, Luke 19:29b-31
d. The disciples go to find the colt: - Matt 21:6, Mark 11:4-6, Luke 19:32-34
e. People come out from Jerusalem to Jesus because they had heard that he was entering Jerusalem: - John 12:12-13
f. Jesus rides a young colt into Jerusalem and the crowds sing praises: - Matt 21:7-11, Mark 11:7-10, Luke 19:35-38, John 12-14-15
g. Some Pharisees asked that the crowd be restrained: - Luke 19:39-40
h. Jesus’ disciples did not understand the significance of the event straight away.: - John 12:16-18
i. The Pharisees express their concern over Jesus: - John 12:19
j. Jesus goes into the temple: - Mark 11:11a
k. Greek worshippers in Jerusalem asked to meet Jesus: - John 12:20-26
l. Jesus is glorified and tells those around him how he is to die: - John 12:27-36a
m. Jesus removes himself from among the people: - John 12:36b
n. Jesus returns to Bethany: - Mark 11:11b​

3. Sunday

a. Jesus curses a fig tree: - Mark 11:12-14
b. Jesus weeps over Jerusalem: - Luke 19:41-44​

4. Monday

a. Blind and lame people come to Jesus to be healed: - Matt 21:14-16
b. Jesus returns to Bethany again: - Matt 21:17, Mark 11:19​

Condensed for the first couple of days as shown in the attachment above.

Shalom

 

[marksman]

Maybe you should rely on your "concrete evidence" theory....;)

I avoid theories as they tend to be......theories.

 

[marksman]

The "idea" for Christmas and wedding celebration's are not in Scripture either but we have the "idea" on how to celebrate them. It's called tradition!

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Bible study Mary

If I were you I would look up what it says about the traditions of men.

 

[marksman]

.


This all may seem like just another Jane Austin book club bull session to
you, but make no mistake; there is only one last breath between you and
your worst nightmare if you fail to accept that Jesus Christ's crucified dead
body was restored to life.

● 1Cor 15:1-4 . . Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I
preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which
also you are saved if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless
you believed in vain.

. . . For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that
Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that He was buried,
and that He was raised on the third day according to the scriptures,

Have you heard the expression fiddling while Rome burns? It means to
major on a minor while neglecting a higher priority. And then there's the red
herring; which is a distraction from something far more important. And
jousting windmills; which means to engage an imaginary enemy. And there's
making a mountain out of a mole hill, and a tempest in a tea cup.

Now if you go on making an issue out of something as silly as a missing
word in the Bible, then you'll be at risk of finding yourself at the dirty end of
the stick down the road. Do you really want that?
_

Didn't see the word easter in any of those verses.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Regardless... It does not prove its an idiom. You are taking context of a specific thing (and once again, it isn't even Biblical) and applying it across the board. Furthermore, you fail to acknowledge that not everyone agreed here. Did you catch 9:3K?
[K] And thus has it been taught contrary to the view of R. Eleazar b. Azariah, 'There are occasions in which there is a day and any small amount of time in addition, and yet [a woman] is clean. There may be two days lacking a [small] amount of time, and the woman will be unclean." [Hence part of a span is not equivalent to the whole of it.]

So I conclude 1. It is wrong g to take this quote and apply it to all Biblical situations; 2. If it really were a "well known" idiom, then they would all be in agreement, but they aren't.

And this includes YOUR 21st century rabbinical source.
That was my pint from the VERY BEGINNING. I told you - give me Three Rabbis and I'll give you Three conflicting opinions.

This pretty much SINKS your entire case . . .

No... Not always. I haven't given you enough information for you to properly define it yet.

Then again, you could spend some time a do a thorough researching all by yourself, if you like.

Yet, according to Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah from the Babylonian Talmud, a "Day and Night" is an "Onah".
He was one of the most highly-respected Rabbis of his time. What are YOUR rabbinical credentials??

Oh really? And what would those statements be? I've barely mentioned them in this thread! I think I mentioned them twice... Once to note the differences of when he was discovered missing and then briefly to point out your error in "day one".

Why is it, by the way, you just want to stick with Mark? I'd rather look at all the accounts and evidence before making a judgment, but that's just me....

Because of CONTEXT.
Unless you read ALL of the Gospel accounts in CONTEXT, you cannot come to a conclusive determination.

Why does the Markan timeline make you so nervous??

Sorry, but I can't honor that demand. You won't let me. If I don't address all your arguments I will never hear the end of it. I still have at least one more point to cover.

Sorry, I am not a cut and paste type of guy.

No - you're just not an "contextual evidence" type of guy . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

As requested here is a summary and the respective Gospel Passages tied to these events in Chronological order as considered by the author up to and including Monday: -

The Gospels arranged to reflect the chronological events of Jesus’ life from when he drew near for the last time to Jerusalem

1. Friday six days before the Passover.

a. As Jesus draws near to Jericho on his way to Jerusalem, he heals a blind man : - Mark 10:46-52, Luke 18:35-43
b. As Jesus passes through Jericho, he sees Zacchaeus, who had climbed up a tree, so he would be able to see Jesus as he passed by and invites himself to Zacchaeus’ house to stay for a day. : - Luke 19:1-10
c. Jesus heals two blind men as he leaves Jericho by touching their eyes. : - Matt 20:29-34
d. Jesus tells those around him a parable in response to their belief that the Kingdom of God was to appear immediately: - Luke 19:11-27
e. Jesus continues on ahead: - Luke 19:28a
f. Jesus draws near to Jerusalem and stops at Bethany. : - Matt 21:1, Mark 11:1a, Luke 19:29, John 12:1
g. Martha makes a meal for Jesus: - John 12:2
h. Mary anoints Jesus with ointment : - John 12:3-8​

2. Saturday’s, today’s timeframe, twilight after sunset

a. Crowds come to see Jesus and Lazarus: - John 12:9
b. The Chief Priests conspire to kill Lazarus: – John 12:10-11
c. Jesus sends two disciples ahead to find a colt. [Jesus will ride on this colt as he goes to Jerusalem for the finial time.] : - Matt 21:1b-4, Mark 11:1b, Luke 19:29b-31
d. The disciples go to find the colt: - Matt 21:6, Mark 11:4-6, Luke 19:32-34
e. People come out from Jerusalem to Jesus because they had heard that he was entering Jerusalem: - John 12:12-13
f. Jesus rides a young colt into Jerusalem and the crowds sing praises: - Matt 21:7-11, Mark 11:7-10, Luke 19:35-38, John 12-14-15
g. Some Pharisees asked that the crowd be restrained: - Luke 19:39-40
h. Jesus’ disciples did not understand the significance of the event straight away.: - John 12:16-18
i. The Pharisees express their concern over Jesus: - John 12:19
j. Jesus goes into the temple: - Mark 11:11a
k. Greek worshippers in Jerusalem asked to meet Jesus: - John 12:20-26
l. Jesus is glorified and tells those around him how he is to die: - John 12:27-36a
m. Jesus removes himself from among the people: - John 12:36b
n. Jesus returns to Bethany: - Mark 11:11b​

3. Sunday

a. Jesus curses a fig tree: - Mark 11:12-14
b. Jesus weeps over Jerusalem: - Luke 19:41-44​

4. Monday

a. Blind and lame people come to Jesus to be healed: - Matt 21:14-16
b. Jesus returns to Bethany again: - Matt 21:17, Mark 11:19​

Condensed for the first couple of days as shown in the attachment above.

Shalom

You STILL haven't shown where you get the idea that Palm Sunday occurred on Saturday Night.
Again - your attachment was unusable. Just explain it.

This is, after all - a discussion forum . . .

 

[FHII]

And this includes YOUR 21st century rabbinical source.
That was my pint from the VERY BEGINNING. I told you - give me Three Rabbis and I'll give you Three conflicting opinions.

No it doesn't. Hall was discussing whether 3d/3n is an idiom; Sabbat 9:3 is discussing the uncleanliness of a woman. It is utterly wrong to suggest they are related. The term onah doesnt even mean "day" in the same sense.

You whole point about rabbi's disagreeing is weak. It can be said the same about Christians, Muslims, Democrats, Republicans and so forth. Guess what? They also agree quite a bit too! I bet I can find 3 that agree that a fast lasting 3 days and 3 nights is going to last a full 72 hours.

Yet, according to Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah from the Babylonian Talmud, a "Day and Night" is an "Onah".
He was one of the most highly-respected Rabbis of his time. What are YOUR rabbinical credentials?

Pointless question. I am not disagreeing with him. I am disagreeing with you misapplying what he said.

I wonder if he would say a fast lasting 3 days and 3 nights is anything but 72 hours.

Because of CONTEXT.
Unless you read ALL of the Gospel accounts in CONTEXT, you cannot come to a conclusive determination.

LOL! Are you saying that's such a difficult task?

No - you're just not an "contextual evidence" type of guy .

...says the guy who thinks we can apply a discussion about a woman's uncleanliness to the passion week!

... Says the guy who can't differentiate a time of fasting to when Esther went to see the king!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The Gospels arranged to reflect the chronological events of Jesus’ life from when he drew near for the last time to Jerusalem

The only place in the universe you will get the chronological events of Jesus’ last passover from when He drew near for the last time to Jerusalem to the day He Resurrected, is the Gospels.

Read EVERY relevant Scripture in the last chapters of the four Gospels, in textual sequence put together in chronological and logical, historical order, word for word, verse by verse, context to context, Gospel for Gospel, using the King James Version interlinear with the Greek, and every shadow of doubt is dispelled about Christ's perfect fulfilment of the Passover of Yahweh's "three days thick darkness", sola Scriptura as per the Article of the Christian Confession of Faith, I believe in Christ, who was crucified, who died and was buried, and who “ROSE from the dead according to the Scriptures THE THIRD DAY”!

Immediate, free, in full use, electronic delivery now, on receipt of your e-mail address to biblestudents at imaginet dot co dot za. DV

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The original Easter occurred on the first day of the Jews' week. (Matt 28:1,
Mark 16:1-2, and John 20:1)

A. The Sunday idolaters' Easter does occur on the Jews' first day of the week, no doubt about that!

B. These Scriptures have nothing to do with 'Easter', nor does Easter - the pagans' 'Easter' - have anything to do with them.

C. The three Scriptures you indicated, are not one about the same thing or things as the other. So what are you talking about!