Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[Waiting on him]

That is a plainly STUPID question and does not deserve an answer.

You know, it’s ok to say I don’t know.

 

[Earburner]

More baloney from one who presents himself as a Bible student. Just because the KJV translators mistakenly called Sheol (the region of departed souls and spirits) BOTH "hell" and "the pit" and "the grave" does not mean that hell is the grave. This has been posted a hundred times but it never seems to sink in:

THE KJV MISTRANSLATIONS
SHEOL = hell, grave, pit
HADES (SAME AS SHEOL) = hell
GEHENNA (THE LAKE OF FIRE) = hell
TARTARUS (THE PRISON FOR EVIL ANGELS) = hell

The grave cannot be hell for the simple reason that it is only six feet (or less) under the surface of the earth. There are no souls in the soil. However, there may be soles of discarded shoes and boots.

So now, you must learn what "soul" is.
If you don't comprehend that, you will NEVER understand where and what hell is.

 

[ChristisGod]

More baloney from one who presents himself as a Bible student. Just because the KJV translators mistakenly called Sheol (the region of departed souls and spirits) BOTH "hell" and "the pit" and "the grave" does not mean that hell is the grave. This has been posted a hundred times but it never seems to sink in:

THE KJV MISTRANSLATIONS
SHEOL = hell, grave, pit
HADES (SAME AS SHEOL) = hell
GEHENNA (THE LAKE OF FIRE) = hell
TARTARUS (THE PRISON FOR EVIL ANGELS) = hell

The grave cannot be hell for the simple reason that it is only six feet (or less) under the surface of the earth. There are no souls in the soil. However, there may be soles of discarded shoes and boots.

I can't believe all the kjv only crowd here its like an epidemic.

 

[justbyfaith]

Link to thread:

Hebrews 4:12.

For a definition of "soul".

 

[Brakelite]

That is a plainly STUPID question and does not deserve an answer.

Religious liberty does NOT include the promotion of heresies. And this heresy seeks to call God and Christ liars. Which is blasphemy.

Now you are just trying to be God. What do you know exactly about divine justice?

In all the above you are sounding more like BoL.

I completely agree!

As if we understand what God was creating when He created us. As if we somehow "know" that God didn't make man to have a spirit that lives on.

Much love!

Of course God made us to live forever. Death has always been an enemy to be avoided at all costs...
KJV Ezekiel 33
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Yet death is a reality. Christ did not save us from the first death... That is inevitable. Christ saved us from the second death... The death that comes without hope, without a resurrection. That death comes by means of fire. A fire that destroys utterly. But life was always conditional. Life for Adam and Eve depended on their partaking of the tree of life. But when they sinned, God found it necessary, for the well being of the universe, to declare...

KJV Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
KJV Genesis 3
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Thus there is no such thing as an immortal sinner. Unless of course you can show me evidence of a tree of life in hell.

 

[Taken]

What do you suppose was in the cup Jesus drank and said the sons of thunder would also drink?

Suffering and Salvation.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I was. Try to keep up.

After I laughed. Then you commented about you 30 years ago. Was my laugh about anyone's prior (30 years ago) thought? No. Try to stay in context.

 

[Enoch111]

Thus there is no such thing as an immortal sinner.

Have you never heard of the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29) also called the resurrection of the unjust (Acts 24:15)? Have ye never read the Scriptures? said Christ.

Of course you have wilfully blinded yourself to this Bible fact, because it does not fit your theology. So it is now high time you checked out these Scriptures and discovered what they mean.

With reference to "damnation" in John 5:29 (correctly stated in the KJV, but skirted in the modern versions), Thayer's Greek Lexicon has this correct interpretation:
"...Specifically, sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment: Hebrews 10:27; 2 Peter 2:4; with the genitive of the person condemned and punished,Revelation 18:10; ἡ κρίσις αὐτοῦ ἤρθη, the punishment appointed him was taken away, i. e. was ended, Acts 8:33 from Isaiah 53:8, the Sept.; πίπτειν εἰς κρίσιν (Rst εἰςὑπόκρισιν), to become liable to condemnation, James 5:12; αἰώνιος κρίσις, eternal damnation, Mark 3:29(Rec.); ἡ κρίσις τῆς γηννης, the judgment condemning one to Gehenna, the penalty of Gehenna, i. e. to be suffered in hell, Matthew 23:33. In John's usage κρίσιςdenotes α. that judgment which Christ occasioned, in that wicked men rejected the salvation he offered, and so of their own accord brought upon themselves misery and punishment..."

JOHN GILL'S COMMENTARY ON JOHN 5:29
...unto the resurrection of damnation; that is, to everlasting damnation, shame, and reproach; they shall be condemned by the Judge of the whole earth, and shall be pronounced cursed; and shall be ordered to go into everlasting fire, and shall go into everlasting punishment; which will be a punishment both of loss and sense: they will lose, or be deprived of, the presence of God, and feel his wrath in their consciences.

...the saints will rise with bodies glorious, powerful, and spiritual; and wicked men, though with bodies immortal, yet vile, and dishonourable: the one will rise to a life of joy and happiness that will last for ever, and which will be properly life; the other, though they will rise and live for ever, yet in misery and woe, and which will be the second, or eternal death; see a like distinction in Daniel 12:2, to which there seems to be some, reference here...

 

[Taken]

In all the above you are sounding more like BoL.

I think everyone individually knows the extent of their own learning and are eager to share and some can explain why their beliefs lean the way they do, others can't. When they can't, Accusations seem to be a handy tool to deflect.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Brakelite]

Have you never heard of the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29) also called the resurrection of the unjust (Acts 24:15)? Have ye never read the Scriptures? said Christ.

Yes of course. From the first death. Not from the second.
And don't think for a moment that annihilation is only, merely, all that the sinner must endure. Jesus said,
KJV Luke 12
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

There are degrees of punishment, which is only just. I asked a question earlier which no-one bothered to answer. ...a 12 year old living in the first century and dies having rejected the gospel but not committing any terrible crime, according to the popular theology, spends more time in hell as tomorrow's despot whose genocidal practices murdered 100s of thousands, tortured scores of innocent men, women, children. Yet this is thought of as God's justice.
Yes, I'm speaking to you with human reasoning. Because this topic has been around for a while and I've presented dozens of scriptures that declare that death is the end of the wicked... All of which you have denied. So I'm appealing to reason... Reason and wisdom that is a gift from God albeit it seems in some cases blunted and confused. We are created in the image of God and we rightly are horrified by blind monstrous evil expressed in revenge and torture and deliberately inflicted suffering when exercised by men... But call it justice if exercised by God? Why can you not see the unreasonable reasoning behind that?

 

[Taken]

With reference to "damnation" in John 5:29 (correctly stated in the KJV, but skirted in the modern versions), Thayer's Greek Lexicon has this correct interpretation:

That is YOUR option to adopt and believe an others interpretation.
Anyone not in agreement with YOU does not make another a heretic!

"...Specifically, sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment: Hebrews 10:27; 2 Peter 2:4; with the genitive of the person condemned and punished,Revelation 18:10; ἡ κρίσις αὐτοῦ ἤρθη, the punishment appointed him was taken away, i. e. was ended, Acts 8:33 from Isaiah 53:8, the Sept.; πίπτειν εἰς κρίσιν (Rst εἰςὑπόκρισιν), to become liable to condemnation, James 5:12; αἰώνιος κρίσις, eternal damnation, Mark 3:29(Rec.); ἡ κρίσις τῆς γηννης, the judgment condemning one to Gehenna, the penalty of Gehenna, i. e. to be suffered in hell, Matthew 23:33. In John's usage κρίσιςdenotes α. that judgment which Christ occasioned, in that wicked men rejected the salvation he offered, and so of their own accord brought upon themselves misery and punishment..."

How does that reflect a sinner "is immortal" and punished Eternally?

No doubt...
the damned will be Eternally separated from God.
No doubt...
Living souls suffer their punishment of Separation in hell.

Don't see where a sinner "is being described as immortal", in this commentary.

* On to another Commentary of John 5:29 of the damned.

John 5:29
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

JOHN GILL'S COMMENTARY ON JOHN 5:29
...unto the resurrection of damnation; that is, to everlasting damnation, shame, and reproach; they shall be condemned by the Judge of the whole earth, and shall be pronounced cursed;

In hell, there are Living souls suffering Separation from God.

However, not to forget:
They shall be raised (in their damned state of a Mortally Dead Body, by their Living Soul returning to their Body ) and Standing Before the Lord in His presence. And What?
Scripture needs be fulfilled:
Rom 14:11
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Everyone...has a point of being Raised up Bodily...some in glory (of an immortal body,) some in a damned body.
Everyone shall see, confess Belief.
Everyone shall give an account of himself.

and shall be ordered to go into everlasting fire,

Yes, I believe there is an everlasting (lake of) Fire...
It is more to the Question of:
What Exactly is PUT into that Lake of Fire...
And What "happens" to the thing that IS PUT into the Lake of Fire (and Why).

and shall go into everlasting punishment;

I believe the Judgement of Eternal Separation from God IS the consequence / the punishment. (Without addressing what the supposed "feeling" of some eternal agony ).

which will be a punishment both of loss and sense: they will lose, or be deprived of, the presence of God, and feel his wrath in their consciences.

This is contradictory.
Loss of sense AND maintain their consciences...for the SAME "they"?

I think it has been well established...
Anything PUT into the Lake of Fire, is going to BE Eternally Separated From God.

What has Not been established:
Specific to men...
(Not fallen angels/ NOT hell and Death which are also Put into the Lake of Fire)...
But Specific to men...

"What men Specific...?"
* Have a "loss of sense"...and what that means and "How and why?"
* Have "a feeling" of Gods Wrath "in their consciences" and "How and why?"

I believe Scripture may give us the answer.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

UPDATE: I found the movie on Youtube:
(I've saw it when it was new 8 years ago.
It's a good watch. It won secular awards.)

tks, ill check it out :)

 

[bbyrd009]

No one has yet to answer a question presented, how is God just in immortalizing sin?

I believe this is an important question, and for those who have it all worked out, what say ye?

maybe bc sin is as much a perception of others as it might be actual? Where there is no law, there is no sin, right?

 

[Earburner]

I can't believe all the kjv only crowd here its like an epidemic.

A simple fact that you should learn:
The 1611 KJV Bible was translated from the "Textus Receptus Greek text".
All the modern bible versions of today, including the JW-NWT bible, were translated from the "Westcott & Hort Greek text".
The comparison between the Greek texts, is like salt vs. sugar.
Is it any wonder why there is so much *confusion among the churches, as is also demonstrated here in these threads?

*Note:
1 Cor. 14[33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What does that have to do with Hell?

nothing I guess, other than (imo)devour and the destroyer are brothers. I don’t see God as a waster but instead us. When God destroys the word says ‘how marvelous are His works’ and heaven rejoices over the destruction of one sinner for one sinner destroys much good...Saul/Paul is an example. Personally and by no means saying it is right. But to me Hell is already and it is only by God’s tender mercy we are not consumed.

Proverbs 16:4-8 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. [5] Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord : though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished. [6] By mercy and truth iniquity is purged:

Matthew 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: [12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

‘Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor’ by mercy and truth is iniquity purged.

‘he shall not go unpunished’ he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil. [7] When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him. [8] Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.


Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No one has yet to answer a question presented, how is God just in immortalizing sin?

I believe this is an important question, and for those who have it all worked out, what say ye?

if that is the case then God immortalizes false doctrines, every liar and murderer, and even the devil who is cast in. because why should the father of lies not become immortalized if all those deceived by his lies have to suffer everlasting torment and torture ...why should the devil get off so easily and only his children burn everlasting?

 

[justbyfaith]

The comparison between the Greek texts, is like salt vs. sugar.

Which one is salt, and which one is sugar?

 

[justbyfaith]

maybe bc sin is as much a perception of others as it might be actual? Where there is no law, there is no sin, right?

More accurately, sin is not imputed where there is no law (it is not that it does not exist).

 

[amadeus]

In this entire discussion I see human beings using HUMAN REASONING to try and understand divine justice. Which is absurd.

Not only this discussion on this thread but on many throughout this forum. I agree with this about the use of human reasoning to make final and binding decisions about what we believe!

But it is typical of cults and cultists to use human reasoning, because they simply cannot understand spiritual things. They cannot understand (1) the deity of Christ, (2) the Trinity, (3) salvation by grace through faith, and (4) eternal torment in Hell (among many other things).

On this part you believe these things in a certain way, which is your right, but the judgement of others who disagree on any point is you using your human reasoning or the reasoning of others you are following to tell everyone else the right way.

If you or I or another here were God or Jesus with no error whatsoever in our understanding of God and the things of God, we could really do that... but, yes but!?

Everything connected with the eternal punishment of sinners and evil angels is outside the grasp of humans. And all that Christians are expected to do is simply believe what God and Christ have revealed. And whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

If it is outside our grasp why do you discuss it at all? Are you not also human? You say you believe what is revealed and then tell everyone else what is apparently revealed to you. What is revealed to me and to him and to the other guy? The written scriptures cannot be alone the arbiter here because humans disagree on what the written verses mean. You may indeed be right on every point, but even as you do not accept the meaning of other people, why do you expect other people to accept the meaning you see?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Do you really think that 1 John 4:18 (kjv) applies to the fear of the LORD?

You would have to deal with some contradictory ideas in scripture if that is the case.

The fear of the LORD is promoted as desirable in holy scripture.

Consider:
1 John 4:17-18 Herein is our love made perfect(in Christ), that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. [18] There is no fear (condemnation)in love; but perfect love(The Hope of Christ in us) casteth out (condemnation)fear: because (condemnation)fear hath (terror)torment. He that feareth (stands condemned) is not made perfect in (Christ)love.


Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 7:9-13 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

John 5:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: (and be raised up from the dead) and they that hear shall live.