entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

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FollowHim

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This issue is you say you believe God has made you Holy and it is him who keeps you holy

Yet then say you believe people God has made holy. may in the end, Fail to be made holy By God

A holy object is not eternally holy, it can be contaminated and made unclean.
If one raises objections or principles that cannot be crossed above scripture or the basics of the faith, then conversation becomes not possible.

A priest entered the Holy of Holys after purification but could always be contaminated by touching a dead person, by doing or saying the wrong things in the wrong way. Holiness was not guaranteed or continuous.

As this principle is clear in scripture, upon what foundation do you have to say Gods people cannot be rejected?
Israel was rejected, many people who were regarded as holy were judged and died.

Hearing these kind of responses is like holding up a bucket full of holes and saying it holds water, while clearly not.
There must be some point to this, other than just putting some kind of response, but for what end?
Save face, create an impression of an answer.

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:28-29

I suppose this mountain of faith, loyalty to a position of security on a once off transaction is the impossible hurdle to cross. The reason the new testament is full of examples of why this is not true, is because people love the idea of a ticket of security, no matter what insanity they later commit. In a sense the cross is this place if we dwell there and go back to love and Gods heart, because then we are safe, wrapped in Him. But a disconnected event in time, is just a passing fad, a fling that has no significance, an aberration of the mind when someone was feeling weak.
 

FollowHim

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Then If as you claim, It is God who makes you holy and keeps you holy

God has failed

God does not keep me Holy, we keep ourselves from not being contaminated.

27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world
James 1:27

20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Acts 15:20

18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
Matt 15:18-19

God gives us the responsibility to walk the path, to follow and obey. It is we who fail is we do not follow. If it was Gods responsibility to make us obey and we do not, then He would have failed.

God always says obey and be blessed, rebel and be judged. It is our choice.

2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:
3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.
Deut 28:2-3
 

Eternally Grateful

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God does not keep me Holy, we keep ourselves from not being contaminated.
Then you are saying you must make yourself holy. ie you are preaching works.

You can not have it both ways peter

and here are your words

The elect will never fail, which is why they are called the elect.
Again, I do not make myself Holy, that is Gods work in us and He purifies us through faith, confession and dwelling in Him.

So if these two statements you made are true. how did God fail? how did the elect fail?
 

FollowHim

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Then you are saying you must make yourself holy. ie you are preaching works.
You can not have it both ways peter
and here are your words

So if these two statements you made are true. how did God fail? how did the elect fail?

We are Holy because of God.
But we can undo the work of God in our lives.

If you cannot accept both these statements, then this is our difference.
It is saying a branch in the vine cannot die, stop abiding and being in Christ.
Or saying a believer cannot walk away from God after they have seen everything.
Or satan could not have fallen because he saw Gods face.
Or Judas could not betray Christ, because he saw everything the apostles saw and heard.

Now I accept you can believe it is impossible to deny God, but unfortunately free will means it is possible and many do, as testified by the apostles.

The elect do not, because they are chosen, from the beginning in Gods heart.
Now why many are called and few chosen is not explained, probably because it would confuse Gods people. Am I chosen? Yes as far as I know in my heart and my soul. But I could be wrong, but that is Jesus's choice.

What is interesting is Jesus separates out those who responded to need from those who did not, but both parties were unaware of the basis of this decision. So I totally trust my Lord that His love will shine and He will do what is right, loving and true, Amen.
 

FollowHim

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You can not have it both ways peter
Who is Peter? I wonder how this helps you my friend.
Have you a friend called Peter or an enemy you like to label people with in passing conversation?
I can guess the answer, but far be it from me to say what you will respond with ..... :)

I suppose how I feel about this kind of interaction has no bearing on the matter .....

This brings to mind, the basis of interactions, to encourage and be a light, or domination and to create a combative feel. I always try to create an encouraging friendly interaction, God bless you
 

Eternally Grateful

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We are Holy because of God.
But we can undo the work of God in our lives.

If you cannot accept both these statements, then this is our difference.

No I can not

If God makes us holy when we were his enemy and every action we did 24/7 for our whole lives up to that point was sin,

Then how can we make ourselves unholy? When we will never be worse than we were when God saved us?

That would also mean we are stronger than God and God fails.

You said the elect will never fail

Why did you say this if it is not true?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Who is Peter? I wonder how this helps you my friend.

It was your name in another chatroom

Have you a friend called Peter or an enemy you like to label people with in passing conversation?
I can guess the answer, but far be it from me to say what you will respond with ..... :)

I suppose how I feel about this kind of interaction has no bearing on the matter .....

This brings to mind, the basis of interactions, to encourage and be a light, or domination and to create a combative feel. I always try to create an encouraging friendly interaction, God bless you

I have a love for you.. Sadly you will never understand it
 

FollowHim

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No I can not

If God makes us holy when we were his enemy and every action we did 24/7 for our whole lives up to that point was sin,

Then how can we make ourselves unholy? When we will never be worse than we were when God saved us?

That would also mean we are stronger than God and God fails.

You said the elect will never fail

Why did you say this if it is not true?

This first statement, we are made holy when we were His enemy.
This is not a cause and effect statement. There is nothing here that says what makes us holy, how and why. If you were a universalist, and God just makes everyone holy, then he could eternally have everyone holy.

In Israel holiness came about through very specific ceremonies, washing, cleansing, preparation.
And this holiness could be broken, at which point, cleansing again had to take place.

The whole principle of sacrifice for sin, when you became aware of sinful behaviour, is about continually staying in the presence and walk in God.

Holiness is conditional upon faith in Christ, on confession and obedience.

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Rom 10:9-10

What I find interesting, is in most conversations with believers a lot in scripture is assumed, ie one does not have to go back to basics, the background is there. In this conversation it appears there are no basics, it is just a jumble of unprepared and worked through sentences.

So maybe I should accept the truth, you have these basic principles and then try to work things to fit around them, which creates this stilted and to me not coherent exchanges. I could not do this myself, because for me, the whole framework is the basis upon which I live my life.

I have a friend who is addicted to being a particular way in interactions, which you remind me of.
God bless you.
 

FollowHim

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It was your name in another chatroom
I have a love for you.. Sadly you will never understand it

If this was a name I used elsewhere, how is this relevant here?
It is like going, ahah, this is your little bit of knowledge I have ......

What is this love you have for me, my friend? Is it sacrificial agape love, of service and suffering for others? I know this love, because Jesus had it for me and planted it in my heart, and that is what I have for you. So if you know Jesus, you know of that which I speak.

If I can never understand love, or your love, you must be a very unusual human being, or I am incapable of love myself, which maybe what you are implying? I am fishing here, because I think this is actually like a dead end point, point scoring for no particular reason lol. And that is the feeling I get, but who am I to know, I can only share how it comes across .... God bless you
 

FollowHim

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A small side note, I have never had someone declare to me that I will never understand love or their love. I suppose because that is not how love works, it desires the best, that people understand, have empathy, care, are gentle, uplifting, kind, gracious, trusting, patient, kind.

It is further odd, because love is such a fundamental human experience. Everyone knows what love is, and is born with love in their hearts for their parents, to the extent they cannot separate themselves as an identity separate from the mother. As we grow we hide this love, we harden our hearts, we become brutal and brisk, we do not notice how others are, or pick up signals of pain.

To know Jesus is to know love and to walk in it. So it could be brutal to say to a believer they do not know love. But then from someone who regards me as a deceiver, in league with satan, and doomed to the pit, maybe this is a nice description..... who knows, if truth be told, the conversation might be a lot shorter ..... lol
 

Joseph77

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A priest entered the Holy of Holys after purification but could always be contaminated by touching a dead person, by doing or saying the wrong things in the wrong way. Holiness was not guaranteed or continuous.
Correct to the context , yes,

realize that Jesus, our High Priest, could and did not only touch lepers and 'dead'/sleeping/ bodies,
when He Did/Does/ He (and later His holy ones appointed messengers, etc) healed them, raised them, and was not at all contaminated nor unclean thereby.
 

Joseph77

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But then from someone who regards me as a deceiver, in league with satan, and doomed to the pit, maybe this is a nice description..... who knows, if truth be told, the conversation might be a lot shorter ..... lol
Yes, if truth be told, many conversations would be a lot shorted - but not on a forum open to the whole world/ wickednesses/ deceivers.... only in your own home perhaps, and in any true assembly of Ekklesia as written in Scripture - the untruths are not permitted in the assemblies, not to be discussed, nor the false gospel bringers either - they are not allowed .... when the assemblies of Ekklesia are moderated as written in Scripture. Thus no pollution, no impurity, no impropriety, nothing unbecoming conversation for believers , is possible, though rarely seen or experienced, especially when compared to tsunami without number meetings of carnal fleshly experiences in the world.

i.e. sanctification of Ekklesia is accomplished by the Father's doing, no matter where we go, but not of all the world - outside of Ekklesia.
 

Candidus

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The GIFT of God is ETERNAL life in Christ

Absolutely! But that does not change the wages of sin, does it!

“But now, being made free from sin, and become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Rom. 6:22). “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.” (Heb. 12:14).


Genesis 2:17. “But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” Satan claimed otherwise, just as he still does today! “And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die.” (3:4). This is God’s standard. Sin always separates!

It was Jesus who said, “Fear not them that can kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matt. 10:28). “These shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” (Matt. 25:46).


“His servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness.” (Rom. 6:16).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,…”
(1 Jn. 3:10).

“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
(Rom. 8:6).

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not after the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Rom. 8: 12-13).

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
(Ezek. 18:4).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned” in his sin that he hath sinned, in them he shall die.”
(Ezek. 18:24).

The wages of sin is death... stop before payday!
 
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Candidus

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I have no Gnostic problem

My problem is with someone who will not tell us if he can live up to the standard he keeps demanding of everyone else

Why is it that those who use ad hominem instead of Scripture assume that when I write about a problem in the Church that John sent an Epistle to... they take it personally? Was he writing about you?
 

FollowHim

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Why is it that those who use ad hominem instead of Scripture assume that when I write about a problem in the Church that John sent an Epistle to... they take it personally? Was he writing about you?
I found myself in a strange position. I was looking for ways of expressing obedience through faith as our hearts desire, and found the epistles were saying the same things exactly. So I concluded not only did I agree with scripture I knew why they wrote it.

So in a sense the epistle is personal if one is taking a heretical position. Of course we would not feel it, but they do.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Why is it that those who use ad hominem instead of Scripture assume that when I write about a problem in the Church that John sent an Epistle to... they take it personally? Was he writing about you?
Why is it when people accuse others and they are continually asked the same question they never answer?