entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[brightfame52]

angelina

I beg to differ. I believe that all men[and women] are born into sin when they enter this world. That is because of the fall. They are released from that original sin when they receive Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.

They have to be released first from sin before they can receive Christ. See Christ death for one breaks the power of sin and unbelief for them, and then He by His Spirit gives them faith ad repentance !

 

[justbyfaith]

angelina



They have to be released first from sin before they can receive Christ. See Christ death for one breaks the power of sin and unbelief for them, and then He by His Spirit gives them faith ad repentance !

They receive the Holy Spirit through faith and repentance.

Eph 1:13, In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[brightfame52]

They receive the Holy Spirit through faith and repentance.

Eph 1:13, In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Thats False. Without the Spirit the natural man has no faith, he is spiritually dead. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. A dead person cant repent, because hes dead.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thats False.

That was holy scripture.

I can see where your head is at...with the unbelieving crowd.

 

[brightfame52]

That was holy scripture.

I can see where your head is at...with the unbelieving crowd.

The scripture isnt false, your mishandling of it is. How can a dead person hear spiritually ? That verse plainly said they heard the word of truth, the Gospel of ther Salvation. So in fact, they were already saved ad spiritually alive when they heard it.

 

[justbyfaith]

How can a dead person hear spiritually ?

Most people who hear the gospel are not physically dead...they have ears to hear!

 

[justbyfaith]

The scripture isnt false, your mishandling of it is. How can a dead person hear spiritually ? That verse plainly said they heard the word of truth, the Gospel of ther Salvation. So in fact, they were already saved ad spiritually alive when they heard it.

But not yet born again (to refer to our other conversation)....they are still a "spiritual fetus".

 

[justbyfaith]

The scripture in question, also, says that we received the Holy Spirit after we believed.

Now, doesn't it?

Do you deny that it says that?

 

[brightfame52]

Most people who hear the gospel are not physically dead...they have ears to hear!

You dont understamd, you need siritual ears to hear the Gospel, having physical ears doesn't qualify, sorry. Sure thy can physically hear the word, but that doesn't count towards Spiritual hearing and discerning.

 

[brightfame52]

But not yet born again (to refer to our other conversation)....they are still a "spiritual fetus".

A Spiritual fetus has life spiritual and in Gods time He will feed it with Spiritual food, even spiritual milk.

 

[justbyfaith]

A Spiritual fetus has life spiritual and in Gods time He will feed it with Spiritual food, even spiritual milk.

It has not yet been born again.

We are not born again apart from faith coming into our hearts first.

We may have life (as a spiritual fetus in the womb) before we come to the place of putting our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

 

[justbyfaith]

The scripture in question, also, says that we received the Holy Spirit after we believed.

Now, doesn't it?

Do you deny that it says that?

 

[Paul Christensen]

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the interior and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." “Into what, then, were you baptized?” Paul asked. “The baptism of John,” they replied. Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied (Acts 19:1-6).

What seems to me is that when Paul asked the question, he was assuming that they were Christian believers. He did not know that they were John's disciples and therefore were not yet Christians. They became Christians when Paul baptised them in the Name of Jesus, and so when Paul laid hands on them immediately afterward, they were baptised with the Spirit, spoke in tongues and prophesied.

I don't think the passage proves either that the baptism with the Spirit is a second work of grace, or whether it is part and parcel of receiving Jesus as Saviour through the act of baptism in His Name.

On a side note, it is interesting to me that Paul used water baptism to confirm a person's acceptance of Christ as Saviour...

 

[justbyfaith]

The scripture in question, also, says that we received the Holy Spirit after we believed.

Now, doesn't it?

Do you deny that it says that?

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the interior and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." “Into what, then, were you baptized?” Paul asked. “The baptism of John,” they replied. Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied (Acts 19:1-6).

What seems to me is that when Paul asked the question, he was assuming that they were Christian believers. He did not know that they were John's disciples and therefore were not yet Christians. They became Christians when Paul baptised them in the Name of Jesus, and so when Paul laid hands on them immediately afterward, they were baptised with the Spirit, spoke in tongues and prophesied.

I don't think the passage proves either that the baptism with the Spirit is a second work of grace, or whether it is part and parcel of receiving Jesus as Saviour through the act of baptism in His Name.

On a side note, it is interesting to me that Paul used water baptism to confirm a person's acceptance of Christ as Saviour...

I believe that the scripture in question was not Acts of the Apostles 19; rather it was Ephesians 1:13-14.

 

[brightfame52]

It has not yet been born again.

We are not born again apart from faith coming into our hearts first.

We may have life (as a spiritual fetus in the womb) before we come to the place of putting our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Sure its been born again, thats why its a Spiritual fetus. Man naturally isnt spiritual.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I believe that the scripture in question was not Acts of the Apostles 19; rather it was Ephesians 1:13-14.

Okay.
That Scripture seems to support that the baptism with the Spirit occurs at exactly the same time as the person receives Christ as Saviour. Is that what you are pointing out?

 

[justbyfaith]

Sure its been born again, thats why its a Spiritual fetus. Man naturally isnt spiritual.

A spiritual fetus has not yet come out of the womb; it has not been born.

Okay.
That Scripture seems to support that the baptism with the Spirit occurs at exactly the same time as the person receives Christ as Saviour. Is that what you are pointing out?

I am pointing out that faith comes before becoming born again. Because we receive the Holy Spirit after that we have believed.

 

[Paul Christensen]

A spiritual fetus has not yet come out of the womb; it has not been born.



I am pointing out that faith comes before becoming born again. Because we receive the Holy Spirit after that we have believed.

I can concur with that. The Scripture says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. It seems that merely quoting Scripture at people doesn't stimulate faith in them. The Puritan evangelist John Flavell taught that when the voice of the Holy Spirit is heard in the preaching of the gospel, it is the word that comes through that voice that stimulates saving faith in the hearers. This supports the principle that it is the Holy Spirit working in support of the written Scriptures that causes faith in the listeners.

We have those who say they fully trust in the written Scriptures as the standard for them, but at the same time denying the manifestation of the Holy Spirit through His gifts to the church. Seeing that it is through the nine gifts that the Holy Spirit makes Himself known to the body of Christ, then attempting to comply with the written Scriptures while denying that the Holy Spirit has tools for building up the body of Christ in these days, wouldn't those who have just the written Scriptures as their foundation without the involvement of the Holy Spirit, putting their trust in the dead letter of the Word?

For example, a preacher can preach, quoting Scriptures until the cows come home without any results time after time. It's like some on the forum who like to quote Scriptures in the vain hope that this will have some type of magical effect on the readers to believe the point they are making. Those who believe that the supernatural gifts were limited to the Apostolic age are prominent in doing this sort of thing. But, let's face it, those quoted Scriptures have absolutely no effect on most of us, don't they?

Why is that? Because they reject the present day use of the tools of the Spirit for the church today, they are resisting the Holy Spirit Himself; and because the basis of prophecy is the Holy Spirit speaking through the written Scriptures, their quotation of Scripture lacks the prophetic component, and therefore is just a dead letter falling on deaf ears. Therefore that type of Scripture quotation does not stimulate faith at all.

But a person who fully accepts the full ministry of the Holy Spirit for today's church, including all the gifts, including tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge and wisdom, discerning of spirits, etc., will be depending on the Holy Spirit to speak as he shares the gospel, or gives a Bible message in the church service. His message will have a prophetic component to it because the Holy Spirit will honour that speaker and will speak through his words, and this will have a dynamic effect on the listeners, bringing conviction of sin to sinners, saving faith to seekers, and edification for believers as their faith latches on to the Holy Ghost preaching.

The difference is that a preacher's message just on the written Scriptures will result in people coming away from the meeting saying, "What a great sermon from a wonderful preacher", but a preacher full of the Holy Spirit will preach a message that will have people coming away saying, What a wonderful Saviour is Jesus!"

Leonard Ravenhill called this "unction". When a preacher has unction in his preaching, there is action in the pews. Without that unction, what happens in the pews is the snoring of bored listeners waiting for the sermon to end.

 

[justbyfaith]

It's like some on the forum who like to quote Scriptures in the vain hope that this will have some type of magical effect on the readers to believe the point they are making.

Now, don't underestimate the power of the holy scriptures. God said that they will not return to Him void.

Of course, they may not accomplish the will of the one quoting them necessarily; however, they will accomplish the will of the One who sent them (Isaiah 55:10-11).

The difference is that a preacher's message just on the written Scriptures will result in people coming away from the meeting saying, "What a great sermon from a wonderful preacher", but a preacher full of the Holy Spirit will preach a message that will have people coming away saying, What a wonderful Saviour is Jesus!"

Or, they may go away from the preaching saying, "What a horrible sinner I must be; and how much in need of a Saviour!"