entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Paul Christensen]

O right sorry, I meant anything ‘fleshly’, not what’s inside of you. My heart was changed too, by way of empathy for other people less fortunate. I meant Things we battle with or struggle to do ‘in our own strength’-ie addictions etc.

Because the sin issues has been totally dealt with when Jesus died on the cross for us, then what remains of the flesh is the view of our own goodness and seeking to be righteous through our own religious and moral works. This is what Paul means when he says that we have no confidence in the flesh. He says that he has no confidence in any level of goodness and holiness that he can attain. He treats it all as dung compared with the righteousness that has been given to us by God Himself.

If we get the victory over our shortcomings and addictions, there is the temptation to think we are closer to "arriving" in the spiritual sense. But in reality it is an insult to God and to the blood of Christ which has already covered all our sins and shortcomings. If we are giving effort to improve ourselves, we are blocking the Holy Spirit to achieve Christ's workmanship in us. This is what Satan tempted Eve with - "You don't need God. You can go it alone and discern what is good or evil for yourself.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think that Adam and Eve did not discern good and evil but made gods of themselves so that they could determine good and evil for themselves, based on what they wanted evil and good to be.

See Hebrews 5:14.

Discerning good and evil is a good thing.

 

[justbyfaith]

Eze 33:11, Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13, When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14, Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15, If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16, None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17, Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Eze 33:18, When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 33:19, But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Eze 33:20, Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

 

[brightfame52]

I believe that John is using hyperbole to a certain extent in 1 John 3:9...what he is saying is that when you become born again, you make a 180-degree turn away from sin, hell, death, and the devil, towards righteousness, heaven, life, and God.

You are now walking in another direction, you are not headed towards sin.

As it is written,

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

I would say that if you are not walking in the direction of sin, you are going to sin less and less as time passes; and I don't think that reaching the plateau of being made perfect will immediately put it on God's heart to take you home. You will still be of use to Him in that you will be able to strip away the excuse that some people have that "Christians are hypocrites". If they see you, as a believer, living a perfect life, that excuse will be taken away from them.

John is saying one of two things. That which is born of God cannot sin, the new man in contrast to the old man which is still with the believer and sins everyday or he means he that is born of God cannot sin in that he can't apostatize from the faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Eze 33:11, Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13, When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14, Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15, If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16, None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17, Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Eze 33:18, When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 33:19, But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Eze 33:20, Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

That's for old covenant Israel

 

[brightfame52]

In Philippians 3:15 it is written that as many as are perfect shall have a certain attitude, in context, that they will believe that they have not yet apprehended or were already made perfect. But it should be clear that even though they have this attitude, the Bible defines them as being perfect.

There are many verses which speak of the possibility of being sanctified wholly, among them are 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 1 John 3:9, and Hebrews 10:14.

It should also be clear that Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, and 1 John 2:10 all declare that we do not have to fall into sin but can even be made faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

In 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, and 1 John 2:6, it becomes clear that we can be righteous even as He is righteous, pure even as He is pure, and can walk even as He walked.

Everyone Christ died for is faultless before God and perfectly righteous by the virtual fact that Christ died for them alone. It's a Free Gift imputed to them. They have that from the womb! They just don't know it!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Everyone Christ died for is faultless before God and perfectly righteous by the virtual fact that Christ died for them alone. It's a Free Gift imputed to them. They have that from the womb! They just don't know it!

Well, that makes little sense, that all men have righteousness imputed to them from birth! Is that what you're saying? Jesus did, I agree, provide for that on the cross. But righteousness is only imputed to those who consciously embrace that righteousness and choose to live it. They are able to draw upon his righteousness as a free gift, even though we will never do this perfectly until the resurrection.

 

[charity]

Well, that makes little sense, that all men have righteousness imputed to them from birth! Is that what you're saying? Jesus did, I agree, provide for that on the cross. But righteousness is only imputed to those who consciously embrace that righteousness and choose to live it. They are able to draw upon his righteousness as a free gift, even though we will never do this perfectly until the resurrection.

Hello @Randy Kluth,

Forgive me, but I feel the need to question your use of the words I have highlighted. For they imply conditions placed upon that wondrous gift. Righteousness is imputed (reckoned, counted or attributed) to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord. This gift is given to sinners saved by grace. On the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ. It enables them to come boldly unto God's throne of grace.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[brightfame52]

Well, that makes little sense, that all men have righteousness imputed to them from birth! Is that what you're saying? Jesus did, I agree, provide for that on the cross. But righteousness is only imputed to those who consciously embrace that righteousness and choose to live it. They are able to draw upon his righteousness as a free gift, even though we will never do this perfectly until the resurrection.

Yes if Christ died for them. Their sins were imputed to Him and His Righteousness to them 2 Cor 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[justbyfaith]

John is saying one of two things. That which is born of God cannot sin, the new man in contrast to the old man which is still with the believer and sins everyday or he means he that is born of God cannot sin in that he can't apostatize from the faith.

It is gnostic teaching to say that when my flesh sins, it is not the real me that is sinning; and that therefore I can do whatever I want in the flesh and I am sin-free.

The reality is that when my flesh sins, all of me sins...

That's for old covenant Israel

It is for everyone (2 Timothy 3:16).

You are simply playing a game that many play with scripture...hoping that the context of a passage will nullify it for you so that the claim that it is making on your life might be null and void...

But all scripture is inspired of the Lord and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.

Besides this, Hebrews 10:26-31 says the same thing as Ezekiel 33:11-20 as concerning New Testament believers...

 

[brightfame52]

It is gnostic teaching to say that when my flesh sins, it is not the real me that is sinning; and that therefore I can do whatever I want in the flesh and I am sin-free.

The reality is that when my flesh sins, all of me sins...



It is for everyone (2 Timothy 3:16).

You are simply playing a game that many play with scripture...hoping that the context of a passage will nullify it for you so that the claim that it is making on your life might be null and void...

But all scripture is inspired of the Lord and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.

Besides this, Hebrews 10:26-31 says the same thing as Ezekiel 33:11-20 as concerning New Testament believers...

I responded already.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes if Christ died for them. Their sins were imputed to Him and His Righteousness to them 2 Cor 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

With all due respect I think you've misinterpreted that. That applies to believers, who put their trust in him, who give their devotion to him, to those who make covenant with him. What Christ did on the cross was a *covenant*--the New Covenant. A covenant implies an agreement between 2 or more parties. Without that agreement the gift does not apply. It remains available, but does not apply until it is received. Nothing, with respect to righteousness, is imputed to those who do not repent.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hello @Randy Kluth,

Forgive me, but I feel the need to question your use of the words I have highlighted. For they imply conditions placed upon that wondrous gift. Righteousness is imputed (reckoned, counted or attributed) to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord. This gift is given to sinners saved by grace. On the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ. It enables them to come boldly unto God's throne of grace.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes, we Protestants have been told for years that imputed sin requires nothing on our part--it comes strictly from Christ apart from any righteousness we may have. This is true, if it is being understood properly. It does not mean that righteousness is imputed without any conditions--only that atonement is strictly the domain of Christ. Nothing requires that this be done without men virtuously responding to the free gift.

We are able, as human beings, to respond to God's word, and to thus be virtuous. This has never obtained for us, salvation, though. Salvation, or Eternal Life, comes only through the atonement of Christ. God must forgive us, and He must cleanse us. This happens when we receive Christ's forgiveness, and the process is completed at the resurrection to sinless immortality.

But nowhere are we told that we need not repent. We are only told that the virtue in atoning for our sins belongs to the work of Christ alone. We cannot redeem ourselves, no matter how virtuous we are.

But we can indeed be virtuous. Indeed we must be virtuous. This is a requirement for every covenant of God, that we enter into partnership with God, not to redeem ourselves but to accept Christ's redemption. A bad understanding of Protestant Grace is the culprit here, with all due respect. And I'm a lifelong Protestant. So my sympathies are with you. I've had to struggle with this as well.

 

[justbyfaith]

With all due respect I think you've misinterpreted that. That applies to believers, who put their trust in him, who give their devotion to him, to those who make covenant with him. What Christ did on the cross was a *covenant*--the New Covenant. A covenant implies an agreement between 2 or more parties. Without that agreement the gift does not apply. It remains available, but does not apply until it is received. Nothing, with respect to righteousness, is imputed to those who do not repent.

Indeed; for Jesus said,

Jhn 15:13, Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Jhn 15:14, Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

 

[brightfame52]

With all due respect I think you've misinterpreted that. That applies to believers, who put their trust in him, who give their devotion to him, to those who make covenant with him. What Christ did on the cross was a *covenant*--the New Covenant. A covenant implies an agreement between 2 or more parties. Without that agreement the gift does not apply. It remains available, but does not apply until it is received. Nothing, with respect to righteousness, is imputed to those who do not repent.

It applies to all for whom Christ died, who of course eventually become Believers. One doesn't have to be a believer in order for Christ to have died for them.

 

[justbyfaith]

It applies to all for whom Christ died, who of course eventually become Believers. One doesn't have to be a believer in order for Christ to have died for them.

One must become a believer in order to appropriate what Christ did for them.

Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) and gave His life as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6); so you are right on that count, contrary to your Calvinistic bent on things.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It applies to all for whom Christ died, who of course eventually become Believers. One doesn't have to be a believer in order for Christ to have died for them.

I can agree with that much. Christ did die for men before they deserved it, before some had converted, and even for those who had been saints and still needed cleansing. Perhaps we are just having some semantics difficulties with the word "imputation."

 

[brightfame52]

I can agree with that much. Christ did die for men before they deserved it, before some had converted, and even for those who had been saints and still needed cleansing. Perhaps we are just having some semantics difficulties with the word "imputation."

I'm not having any difficulty. All the legal ramifications and blessings of the death of Christ are applied to the Sheep before they are born.

 

[marks]

But we can indeed be virtuous. Indeed we must be virtuous. This is a requirement for every covenant of God, that we enter into partnership with God, not to redeem ourselves but to accept Christ's redemption. A bad understanding of Protestant Grace is the culprit here, with all due respect. And I'm a lifelong Protestant. So my sympathies are with you. I've had to struggle with this as well.

Are you saying that only in sufficient virtue do we receive our reconciliation?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Are you saying that only in sufficient virtue do we receive our reconciliation?
Much love!

Tricky thicket! I have to be careful with the semantics of the words I'm using. I'm *not* saying we earn our salvation. I'm *not* saying anybody but Christ could provide eternal atonement for human sin.

However, I'm saying that virtue has always been present with men, whether before Adam sinned or after he sinned. We were all made in the image and likeness of God to do good deeds. After the Fall, men could still do good deeds, just as God told Cain he could resist sin.

But clearly, with all of the virtue of men across the earth not all have the correct virtue to obtain eternal life. What enables some to obtain eternal life, and others not? It is simply the question of who chooses to receive it or not.

To truly receive eternal life is not simply saying you want eternal life. It is more a question of doing what is necessary to properly receive eternal life. And to properly receive eternal life one must honestly repent of the autonomous human life in favor of a life lived in fellowship with Christ and in dependency upon him.

So yes, in a way salvation depends upon a proper virtue, that of properly receiving Christ. But again, the atonement was provided by Christ alone. And nothing in our virtue can obtain eternal life without accepting his atonement. Maybe this is as clear as mud, but sometimes that's the best I can do!