entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Eternally Grateful]

You mean the Gnostic view (Muslim view) that Jesus did not die on the Cross, but someone else was substituted? Or that I can believe in the Cross that saved EVERYBODY and no one goes to hell but the devil and his demons? It's in the Bible! Jesus Paid It ALL! Or that God "paid" for me, but not for you, and I have special Gnosis from God that I am Elect, and that since I "see" [gnosko] that my spirit is eternal and cannot sin, and believe that is what the Bible says... I have always been saved, and you will not since you don't believe it.

It's "all over the Bible"... every Theory is!

Like you say, it's my way or the highway! There are only two options! My way, or No way!

Nope

nice try though I mean think for a minute

I say atonement was paid
On the cross

mans you compare me with a gnostic who does not believe in the cross

yeah. Real good argument

 

[FollowHim]

If the shedding of the blood of Christ was required to pay for past sin.

The shedding of his blood would also be required for future sin.

So unless Jesus is going to come and be crucified again for your present and future sin, You better pray he paid for all sin. Else we will be served with walking papers to hell when we leave this lifetime.

The atoning sacrifice only applies when we believe and have faith.
The future is unknown, and when it has become the past, by faith it can atone for that sin.

The problem with language, we are cleansed so we can walk with Jesus and not continue in sin and wickedness.
If one comes to faith, is cleansed, purified and forgiven and refuses to stop sinning or even repent of it, ones past position is ignored, rubbed out as if it never happened.

It is all about our relationship with Him, not bean counting. If one can live with sin and commune with Christ, then this is not real. Jesus's atonement is not the issue, it is our walk and our faith. The promises apply to those who stay in Christ, who abide, who know that above all else love reigns. Hell is a place of destruction of those who eternity will not work for, not because they have sinned. Punishment will be given for sin, but it is their lack of a heart in Christ that destroys the soul when we see Christ.

It is why to look at Gods face is death unless we are His. Total resolution of who we are is dependent on being whole and made complete in Him.
Some talk as if it is just a patch up job, and a bit of sticky plaster is good enough. Once you begin to see how fragile we are and how much we need love and Gods holiness and purity in us, then the truth slowly dawns. It is survival with God, an impossible place for a sinner, so pure, so blindingly holy and complete, a sinner is just chaff in the wind, just about held together. Think of the biggest shocks we have, that cause ptsd. Meeting God without Jesus making us whole is 100x worse.

Standing in Jesus is trust for today, and He will lead us through. Worry about failure tomorrow and its trials is unbelief. A child knows they are secure in the parents arms, so likewise we know we are secure in Jesus's arms because of the cross. God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

true faith does not come or go.

It either is or it is not

Many people BELIEVE Jesus lived and died. may even believe he rose. But do they actually have faith in what this means?

As James said, Even demons believe and tremble.

Living faith endures. Unless those to who faith is given stops earning that trust. Then and only then does it fade away and even cease.

So unless you think God is faithless and not trustworthy. Why you would even think living faith can cease is beyond all comprehension (at least mine)

 

[Joseph77]

true faith does not come or go.
It either is or it is not.

That's not what the Bible says. **

And GOD the CREATOR gives many warnings against that kind of thinking. TO GUARD against sin and deception in one another and in one's own heart, to not fall short.... many times.



**that is what many false teachers say and teach , without truth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's not what the Bible says. **

And GOD the CREATOR gives many warnings against that kind of thinking. TO GUARD against sin and deception in one another and in one's own heart, to not fall short.... many times.



**that is what many false teachers say and teach , without truth.

It is what scripture says,

If we are given ETERNAL life at the moment of faith (we are, john makes this clear in his gospel and epistle) then either faith will be eternal and can not be lost. or god lied. Because what he called eternal is not eternal. it is conditional.

John tells us Jesus said we will never die (john 6)

And we can KNOW we have eternal life (1 john 5)

just two of many things Jesus said which proves life is eternal at the moment of faith

 

[Joseph77]

Jude 1:5
Although you are fully aware of this, I want to remind you that after Jesus had delivered His people out of the land of Egypt, He destroyed those who did not believe.


Study Bible
The Peril of Unbelief
…15As it has been said: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as you did in the rebellion.” 16For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was God angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?…
Berean Study Bible · Download

 

[Joseph77]

Study Bible
Do Not Harden Your Hearts
…8do not harden your hearts, as you did in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness, 9where your fathers tested and tried Me, and for forty years saw My works. 10Therefore I was angry with that generation, and I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known My ways.’…
Berean Study Bible · Download

 

[Joseph77]

And God permitting, we will do so.
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5

who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away,

to be brought back to repentance.

To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.

 

[justbyfaith]

None. The Scripture says, "There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10).

Romans 3:10-18 is qualified by Romans 3:19 and Romans 6:14; as it is what the law says about those who are under it. Therefore those who are not under the law are not defined by Romans 3:10-18.

The Scripture says "Our righteousness is as filthy rags to God" (Isaiah 64:6).

Revelation 19:8 tells us that the righteousness of saints is identified as fine linen, clean and white.

1. Where is Jesus? If payment is required, then no one has ever been saved, for Jesus is not eternally separated from God and being tortured in Hell as we speak. The wages of sin is death... eternal separation and spiritual death.

Jesus, being the infinite God, was able to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world in three days and three nights.

If it is "paid for" then He must release the one whose fine has been "paid." Justice has been satisfied and the guilty must be released! Therefore, God never forgives! If it has been "paid for" then there is nothing to forgive!

God paid for it in order to provide forgiveness in light of the fact that He is perfectly just and therefore requires complete retribution for all wrongs committed.

It seems to me that if we work within your "Gospel 101" Western framework, we have more unanswered questions and illogical outcomes than makes sense, and ultimately force the Bible into horrible contradiction.

Most of your objections do not hold water impaho, and therefore I did not even think it necessary to address them.

2. Because we have so many different meanings to this singular Greek word, we must look at the context to see which is the preferable translation.

I think that you are among those spoken of in scripture who "oppose themselves" (Acts of the Apostles 18:6, 2 Timothy 2:25).

Not once does the Scripture speak of the Cross being a payment,

I think that you need to get a Bible dictionary and look up the word "propitiation".

There are no passages in the entire Bible that states that anything was paid for on the cross!

I beg to differ.

Keep searching...

Jeremiah 29:13, Deuteronomy 4:29.

But you cannot have penalty and forgiveness. If the penalty is paid, then it has already been earned and there is nothing to forgive.

Forgiveness is provided for through the penalty being paid.

No, the Bible NEVER says "paid in full"... ever.

Again, I believe that you are opposing yourself here.

You think you will not be judged for your actions. Dead wrong.

We will most certainly be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10). However, those who are forgiven through the blood of Christ simply will not be condemned (John 5:24 (kjv)).

Then how do you expect to have your sins redeemed?

Biblically!

Please elaborate.

I do believe that Galatians 3:10 tells us that if you are going to be justified through law-keeping, you are required to keep the whole law perfectly from conception to eternity. The only other way in (really, the only way in) is to believe in what Jesus did for you on the Cross, to receive the divine exchange that is offered to you by the Lord, and to receive Christ into your heart with true repentance.

It is merely just another human THEORY. Obviously you can read it into the Bible, but you cannot draw it out of the Bible.

For Theology to be true, it must be found in Scripture.

And that Jesus died for our sins is definitely found in scripture (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The Bible never says that anyone is Predestined to heaven or to Hell... yet so-called "Theology" teaches it.

Actually, Jude 1:3-4 speaks of those who are predestinated to hell; for their condemnation was marked out long ago.

We are sealed since conception by the Holy Spirit.

Only if by conception you are speaking in the spiritual sense. We get sealed at the moment of believing the gospel (Ephesians 1:13-14).

 

[marks]

true faith does not come or go.

It either is or it is not

Many people BELIEVE Jesus lived and died. may even believe he rose. But do they actually have faith in what this means?

As James said, Even demons believe and tremble.

Living faith endures. Unless those to who faith is given stops earning that trust. Then and only then does it fade away and even cease.

So unless you think God is faithless and not trustworthy. Why you would even think living faith can cease is beyond all comprehension (at least mine)

Hi EG,

I think there is widespread lack of understanding of what justification and new creation do to us. The son abides forever.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hi EG,

I think there is widespread lack of understanding of what justification and new creation do to us. The son abides forever.

Much love!

I agree with you

If they only knew,,

 

[Joseph77]

"One of the potential positive effects of COVID-19 on Christianity is that the epidemic is likely to kill off consumer Christianity, at least in the short term.

And while there is certainly plenty to lament about how this crisis is wrecking lives, economies, and unraveling all the world’s plans in stunningly rapid fashion, the virus’s attack on comfortable Christianity could be something we eventually celebrate."

 

[FollowHim]

true faith does not come or go.

It either is or it is not

Many people BELIEVE Jesus lived and died. may even believe he rose. But do they actually have faith in what this means?

As James said, Even demons believe and tremble.

Living faith endures. Unless those to who faith is given stops earning that trust. Then and only then does it fade away and even cease.

So unless you think God is faithless and not trustworthy. Why you would even think living faith can cease is beyond all comprehension (at least mine)

Living faith is faith in communion with Jesus. Jesus in the parable of the seed and the sower suggests why it fails. Peter emphasises if we put on the right attributes we shall not fall, so it is clear faith and our walk are in our hands as well as the Lord's.

Calvanists decide the elect on the basis of falling or not. Looks like you are heading there

 

[Joseph77]

Living faith is faith in communion with Jesus. Jesus in the parable of the seed and the sower suggests why it fails.

? For instance, (in Scripture), ..... (the text/ paragraph) .....

and I believe this is true as written in Scripture >

so it is clear faith and our walk are in our hands as well as the Lord's.

Any specific references/ the texts/paragraphs available ?

 

[FollowHim]

It is what scripture says,

If we are given ETERNAL life at the moment of faith (we are, john makes this clear in his gospel and epistle) then either faith will be eternal and can not be lost. or god lied. Because what he called eternal is not eternal. it is conditional.

John tells us Jesus said we will never die (john 6)

And we can KNOW we have eternal life (1 john 5)

just two of many things Jesus said which proves life is eternal at the moment of faith

Of pipe dreams come true when we first see them the world would be a different place.
Why did Jesus spend 3 years with the disciples? Because it must grow and imbed in the believer. Fly by night faith is just a pipe dream.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Living faith is faith in communion with Jesus. Jesus in the parable of the seed and the sower suggests why it fails. Peter emphasises if we put on the right attributes we shall not fall, so it is clear faith and our walk are in our hands as well as the Lord's.

Calvanists decide the elect on the basis of falling or not. Looks like you are heading there

1. I am not calvinist. So that argument is mute.
2. Living faith is faith in the promises of Jesus based on his character and his faithfulness

Maybe You need to stop focus on how good you think you are? and maybe if you focus more on Jesus then Maybe you will understand what I am talking about?

I don't know. Just a guess

 

[marks]

I agree with you

If they only knew,,

What a blessing it would be!!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of pipe dreams come true when we first see them the world would be a different place.
Why did Jesus spend 3 years with the disciples? Because it must grow and imbed in the believer. Fly by night faith is just a pipe dream.

So I tell you what God promised to give all his children

And you ask me what kind of Pipe dream what?

Jesus walked with them for 3 years because he had to change their mindset. And help them to understand, He was getting ready to send them into the world on their own with the HS

But what this has to do with me recieveing eternal life based on My faith? Can you explain?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What a blessing it would be!!

would be a greater blessing if the whole world saw this

 

[Joseph77]

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil ...
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness to light and light to darkness, who replace bitter with sweet and sweet with bitter.
Verse 20. - Woe unto them that call evil good. This is the fourth woe. There are persons who gloss over evil deeds and evil habits by fair-sounding names, who call cowardice caution, and rashness courage, stinginess thrift, and wasteful profusion generosity.