entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Candidus

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,620
1,382
113
64
Kuna
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When Jesus cried out: "It is finished". The Greek word involved means "The debt is paid". It is the word that in the First Century was written on the document of a released prisoner who had served his sentence, and also on an invoice that was paid in full. So, when Jesus said, "It is finished", He was saying, "The debt is paid in full!" This means that when we stand before God in the judgment, we will be set free, because Jesus has paid our sin debt in full, and God's case against us from breaking His Commandments is dismissed."


We have already established that God either pardons, or He accept payment. It cannot be both.


The argument you make seems like it is academic and is based upon the Greek term [teleo] which can be translated as "paid". This is a fact, and as a fact it cannot be ignored. Greek words have many meanings, and [teleo] is no different.


1. In the Greek, Christ's cry from the cross, "It is finished!" is an accounting term. What we need to realize is that another important fact is conveniently ignored is that the same word can mean finished, complete, accomplished, fulfilled, and to bring to an end. It is not always an accounting term as is implied.


2. Because we have so many different meanings to this singular Greek word, we must look at the context to see which is the preferable translation. It is extremely doubtful that Jesus uttered this statement in an effort to apply any and all meanings of this one word to His death. If this is the case, then we must ask why no reputable translation of the Bible inserts "Paid in full" in place of "It is finished"?


A. The first reason is that the context determines the meaning of the word used in this passage. The obvious contextual translation is "It is finished," or accomplished/complete. His work on the cross on behalf of man has come to an end. To say "paid in full" would deviate from the direction the context is leading us. It is also significant to ask why those in the Apostolic Church, who read the Greek and were close to those who were taught by the disciples never seem to have pressed this interpretation into play. The reason should be obvious, such an idea of atonement never crossed their minds because the Apostles never taught this doctrine!


B. The context uses the same term twice; once in verse 28, and the one in question in verse 30. Tetelestai in verse 28 is, "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, (tetelestai) that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith..."This sets the meaning of "it is finished" (tetelestai) in verse 30. Jesus is confirming in His own words what was accomplished. If the meaning in verse 28 is "accomplished, finished, completed," it makes little or no sense to deviate from its purposeful meaning of "accomplished, finished, complete," in verse 30. If we say verse 30 must mean "paid in full," then verse 28 must have the same meaning, for it is talking about the same thing. Observe the awkwardness if this approach, "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were paid in full, (tetelestai) that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith...""he said, paid in full." (tetelestai). If this were not awkward enough, note that verse 28 specifically states, "that the scripture might be fulfilled." Not once does the Scripture speak of the Cross being a payment, so it is impossible that verse 28, and consequently verse 30 can be translated that way and be true to a fulfillment of Scripture!


C. The most important reason is that there is no Biblical warrant to make such an assertion. There are no passages in the entire Bible that states that anything was paid for on the cross! The Bible never suggests that anyone was paid any amount, or if they were, whom it was that was paid. The entire Old Testament alludes to reconciliation through sacrifice, but never once does it make any reference reconciliation by a payment of an account. The New Testament makes references to the sacrificial system and to the judicial system, but never, not even once does it state that anything was ever paid. There are no parallel passages that would justify imposing such a translation on this passage! Any translator of the Bible that did not want to be laughed out of a job would ever insist on such a wild and unwarranted assertion that it should be translated "paid in full" as is evidenced in every translation that has ever received the acceptance of scholars and the believing public.


D. There is a serious lack of any linguistic history for the argument that the meaning is "paid in full." Such a translation has been missed by the greatest commentators and linguists of the past 2000 years if this is true! It would not surprise me that we cannot find such a translation before 16th century since the Penal Substitution Theory had not been invented yet. But it is astonishing that I cannot find any evidence or suggestion for this translation until the late 1900's; the last 50 years! If such a translation were viable, a credible expositor would have seized the opportunity to support the interpretation of "paid in full" long before now!


E. The reason for the suggestion this should be translated "paid in full" does not come from an altruistic motive to faithfully bring forth the meaning of the Bible, but it is brought to our attention in order to salvage a THEORY that cannot be supported by the context of Biblical language.
 

Candidus

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,620
1,382
113
64
Kuna
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't remember the context, or for here, what this would mean ?

Everyone has "heard" that there are people that teach "sinless perfection" and that evidence is everywhere we look.... just like the "Russian Collusion" that everyone hears about and claims that the "evidence" is everywhere, but it is not!
 

Joseph77

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2020
5,673
1,325
113
Tulsa, OK
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I never heard, even on forums for many years, of the so-called "Russian Collusion" at all.

So why bother with it, if there is no evidence of it at all ?

Other posters have often said there were people claiming sinless perfection, but could not once quote anyone , at all.....

Everyone has "heard" that there are people that teach "sinless perfection" and that evidence is everywhere we look.... just like the "Russian Collusion" that everyone hears about and claims that the "evidence" is everywhere, but it is not!
 

Joseph77

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2020
5,673
1,325
113
Tulsa, OK
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Candidus

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,620
1,382
113
64
Kuna
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"Study Guide for Mark 15 by David Guzik - Blue Letter Bible
Study Guide for Mark 15 by David Guzik
This ancient word tetelestai means, "Paid in Full." This is the cry of a winner, because Jesus paid in full the debt of sin we owed and had finished the eternal purpose of the cross. ii. At some point before He died, before the veil was torn in two, before He cried out it is finished, an awesome spiritual transaction took place. God the ...
"


This has already been debunked. Show me a Commentator from 100 years and beyond that ever came to such a conclusion! As I stated before, the work [telos] CAN be translated and used as "Paid," but words have very little meaning apart from their context. In the translation of Greek, you just cannot just take a term that has multiple meanings and just plug in the one you like.

The bottom line is, the Bible NEVER said that Jesus "paid for our sins" on the Cross. If that is so, then all the results of a payment I brought up are true. No one is saved because Jesus did not pay sufficiently for our sins. He is not in an eternal Hell separated from God. God is like Shylock, demanding His pound of flesh and has no mercy or forgiveness for the sinner. Did Jesus try in His failed attempt to "pay for sins" by buying off the devil? Did He pay His Father? Curious! Tell me what the Bible says, not some Modern commentator with presuppositions an agenda.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,938
8,379
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This has already been debunked. Show me a Commentator from 100 years and beyond that ever came to such a conclusion! As I stated before, the work [telos] CAN be translated and used as "Paid," but words have very little meaning apart from their context. In the translation of Greek, you just cannot just take a term that has multiple meanings and just plug in the one you like.

The bottom line is, the Bible NEVER said that Jesus "paid for our sins" on the Cross. If that is so, then all the results of a payment I brought up are true. No one is saved because Jesus did not pay sufficiently for our sins. He is not in an eternal Hell separated from God. God is like Shylock, demanding His pound of flesh and has no mercy or forgiveness for the sinner. Did Jesus try in His failed attempt to "pay for sins" by buying off the devil? Did He pay His Father? Curious! Tell me what the Bible says, not some Modern commentator with presuppositions an agenda.
then what does the law. Which leads us to Christ. represent when the high priest slaughtors the lamb without blemish on the day of atonement and covers the mercy seat with the blood?

Why is jesus called the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Noticing in the law. and to a jew, A lamb shed its blood for the specific purpose to cover sin?

If jesus did not pay for our debt on the cross. We have no hope. We will al die in our sin
 

Paul Christensen

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2020
3,068
1,619
113
76
Christchurch
www.personal-communication.org.nz
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I am sorry Paul, but exegetically and theologically your "paid in full" theory is not in Scripture. It is not "The Gospel."

To force the Bible into a Western concept of jurisprudence unknown to the Bible, we create more problems that can be resolved.

Jesus didn't pay the fine for us. He didn't pay any penalty either. This is why the Bible never says either of these things.

The Bible says that wages of sin is death. You have correctly stated, "Sin has a penalty attached to it. It is the penalty of not only physical death, but the second death which is the lake of fire." Your theory of retributive justice says that unless our Shylock God gets His pound of flesh, he cannot forgive and save us. You say that Jesus paid that exact penalty instead of us.

1. Where is Jesus? If payment is required, then no one has ever been saved, for Jesus is not eternally separated from God and being tortured in Hell as we speak. The wages of sin is death... eternal separation and spiritual death. (Appeals to the "quality" of His Person and death to release Jesus from this requirement, is just more unbiblical circular reasoning to justify a failed theological invention).

2. Who did Jesus "pay"? Scripture please!

3. If our sin is a fine that has been paid... when was it "paid in full"? Obviously, on the Cross 2000 years ago.

4. So, who's fine was "paid" 2000 years ago? Apparently only those God intends to save and no one else. It was not for "the whole world" or "every man." We can blot those passages out of our Bibles! A fine that is "paid" cannot but force the Judge to release the one that was "paid for." No one that was "paid for" can possibly ever be condemned, since their sin was already punished. Getting "saved" is merely waking up to the fact that you were already saved!

5. Since it had to be "paid" then we deserve to be saved. God is not merciful, He got His pound of flesh and has to release all who have been "paid for." No mercy (withholding what we deserve) because He will only save if there is "payment."

6. If the Gospel is available to everyone, and Jesus made atonement for "all" then where in Scripture does it show us that Jesus "un-pays" the fine that was already "paid" 2000 years ago for those who are lost?

7. A Judge can either Pardon or Punish, He cannot do both. If we are guilty of a crime and go before a Judge, He can have mercy and forego punishment, or He can demand that justice be "paid in full." He cannot do both. If it is "paid for" then He must release the one whose fine has been "paid." Justice has been satisfied and the guilty must be released! Therefore, God never forgives! If it has been "paid for" then there is nothing to forgive!

8. Since "whoever" Jesus gave a "payment" to is the Judge, we can only gather that the Judge (1) demands retributive justice (2) that the offender cannot be released unless a complete and equal punishment for that crime is met out (3) this Judge has no mercy and does not pardon or forgive (4) those whose fine has been "paid" can never be Judged a second time for those crimes already "paid for" and satisfied.

It seems to me that if we work within your "Gospel 101" Western framework, we have more unanswered questions and illogical outcomes than makes sense, and ultimately force the Bible into horrible contradiction.

Wouldn't it be better to build a "Gospel -101" on what the Bible says, and not on what it does not say? We should stop feeding spoiled and rotten milk to babies!
The Greek word for "it is finished" is Τετέλεσται. It appears in all the existing Greek manuscripts. Here is an article that shows how it was used in the First Century, showing that it is not a modern theological concept as you are saying.

Was “Τετέλεσται” actually stamped on paid bills and debt certificates in the first century?

I've often heard some really cool explanations around the meaning for the greek word Τετέλεσται in the New Testament where Jesus said, "It is Finished". I love what I've heard, and have even preached it myself, but at times I've also wondered whether it is accurate, since I have no scholarly reference for the illustration, and I know how preachers sometimes use things in sermons that sound good without checking out whether they are legit.

The particular illustration I'm talking about I've heard pulled from Colossians 2:13-14, where Paul talks about the "handwriting of debts against us." What I've heard is that Paul is actually referring to a common practice at the time where criminals serving time in jail would have their crimes listed on a note that was posted at the prison where they were kept, and it correlated the crimes to the amount of punishment they were to serve. Then, at the end of their sentence, the jail keeper would stamp the paper with "Τετέλεσται", meaning "PAID IN FULL."

So the apparent correlation with Christ's redemptive work of atonement is that He served our prison sentence for us, and when He cried out, "IT IS FINISHED", this is exactly what he was alluding to.

While it make plenty of theological sense to me, can anyone say whether that "practice" of posting prisoners sentences on their cell, and then stamping it with "Τετέλεσται" is a historically accurate portrayal? And are there any references that you can point me toward to learn more of this supposed practice?

EDIT: another assertion about the supposed background of the word can be found here, where the writers claim Τετέλεσται was used on business documents and receipts as a bookkeeping term to show a bill was "PAID IN FULL". There does seem to be a source listed in this example.

Was "Τετέλεσται" actually stamped on paid bills and debt certificates in the first century?

Reading the comments below this section, there is a difference of opinion in the answers, some for it and others against it. The most reliable Bible teachers (Dave Hunt and John MacArthur) are in favour of it, so that is good enough for me.

The question though - if Jesus did take the penalty of our sin upon Himself, then who did, if anyone? There was no one else who could have, and God, who is a God of justice as well as love, could not legally see us free from the penalty of sin just for nothing, because that would make Him an unjust judge who just lets guilty people go free. I don't think I want to share heaven with Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, or the white supremacist who shot and killed 50 innocent people in my own city. If no one has taken the penalty for sin, then these people would have been forgiven because God was compassionate and didn't want to send anyone to hell. But if these evil people were set free, I would not have a high opinion of God's justice. My view is that "do the crime and do the time:", which applies to God's justice as well as any human judge.

So, who has taken the penalty for your sin so that God can forgive you? Because if no one has, then God would be going against His own moral law to just forgive you instead of giving you the sentence that we all deserve.
 

Candidus

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,620
1,382
113
64
Kuna
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Greek word for "it is finished" is Τετέλεσται. It appears in all the existing Greek manuscripts. Here is an article that shows how it was used in the First Century, showing that it is not a modern theological concept as you are saying.

Was “Τετέλεσται” actually stamped on paid bills and debt certificates in the first century?

I've often heard some really cool explanations around the meaning for the greek word Τετέλεσται in the New Testament where Jesus said, "It is Finished". I love what I've heard, and have even preached it myself, but at times I've also wondered whether it is accurate, since I have no scholarly reference for the illustration, and I know how preachers sometimes use things in sermons that sound good without checking out whether they are legit.

The particular illustration I'm talking about I've heard pulled from Colossians 2:13-14, where Paul talks about the "handwriting of debts against us." What I've heard is that Paul is actually referring to a common practice at the time where criminals serving time in jail would have their crimes listed on a note that was posted at the prison where they were kept, and it correlated the crimes to the amount of punishment they were to serve. Then, at the end of their sentence, the jail keeper would stamp the paper with "Τετέλεσται", meaning "PAID IN FULL."

So the apparent correlation with Christ's redemptive work of atonement is that He served our prison sentence for us, and when He cried out, "IT IS FINISHED", this is exactly what he was alluding to.

While it make plenty of theological sense to me, can anyone say whether that "practice" of posting prisoners sentences on their cell, and then stamping it with "Τετέλεσται" is a historically accurate portrayal? And are there any references that you can point me toward to learn more of this supposed practice?

EDIT: another assertion about the supposed background of the word can be found here, where the writers claim Τετέλεσται was used on business documents and receipts as a bookkeeping term to show a bill was "PAID IN FULL". There does seem to be a source listed in this example.

Was "Τετέλεσται" actually stamped on paid bills and debt certificates in the first century?

Reading the comments below this section, there is a difference of opinion in the answers, some for it and others against it. The most reliable Bible teachers (Dave Hunt and John MacArthur) are in favour of it, so that is good enough for me.

The question though - if Jesus did take the penalty of our sin upon Himself, then who did, if anyone? There was no one else who could have, and God, who is a God of justice as well as love, could not legally see us free from the penalty of sin just for nothing, because that would make Him an unjust judge who just lets guilty people go free. I don't think I want to share heaven with Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, or the white supremacist who shot and killed 50 innocent people in my own city. If no one has taken the penalty for sin, then these people would have been forgiven because God was compassionate and didn't want to send anyone to hell. But if these evil people were set free, I would not have a high opinion of God's justice. My view is that "do the crime and do the time:", which applies to God's justice as well as any human judge.

So, who has taken the penalty for your sin so that God can forgive you? Because if no one has, then God would be going against His own moral law to just forgive you instead of giving you the sentence that we all deserve.

But you cannot have penalty and forgiveness. If the penalty is paid, then it has already been earned and there is nothing to forgive.

Penal Substitutionary Atonement was invented to support Calvinism, so it would be no surprise that MacArthur would like it. It's logical outcome only arrives at a Limited Atonement. Dave Hunt, a Neo-Calvinist, is just inconsistent and does not follow where it leads. Both cling to the unbiblical theory through their theological bias, not because the Bible ever teaches it. When you hear the theory pronounced as a fact and assumed in every sermon, most people never look at its history, or whether its conclusions are ever stated in the Bible.

Finding a Bill stamped with [tetelestai] has zero bearing on John 19:30. Such an argument has nothing to do with Biblical meaning or scholarship.

I still wonder... why all those expositors and commentators for the first 1900 years of the Church never saw it? Or why no literal translation of the Bible ever said "Paid in Full"? Where does the Bible ever say "paid"? Where does the Bible say who was "paid"? If it's not in the Bible, it can't be a Biblical Atonement.
 
Last edited:

Joseph77

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2020
5,673
1,325
113
Tulsa, OK
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God and His Word says paid in full......

anyone want to dispute that and pay for their own sin with their own life ? !
 

Candidus

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,620
1,382
113
64
Kuna
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
then what does the law. Which leads us to Christ. represent when the high priest slaughtors the lamb without blemish on the day of atonement and covers the mercy seat with the blood?

Why is jesus called the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Noticing in the law. and to a jew, A lamb shed its blood for the specific purpose to cover sin?

If jesus did not pay for our debt on the cross. We have no hope. We will al die in our sin

If you have no hope if Jesus didn't pay your debt on the cross, then seek the Biblical Jesus and Biblical Atonement.

I notice that you appeal to what Bible does say about Jesus in your post! You appeal to the Sacrificial System and not some Western Judicial System that is foreign to the Bible!

The Lamb of God "takes away the sin of the world..." He does not pay for sins or a fine. No Sacrifice in all of Scripture is said to be punished, or said to be a "payment."
 

Candidus

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,620
1,382
113
64
Kuna
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God and His Word says paid in full......

anyone want to dispute that and pay for their own sin with their own life ? !

No, the Bible NEVER says "paid in full"... ever.

No one's salvation is contingent on believing a theological fiction, or any theory of the Atonement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Episkopos

Joseph77

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2020
5,673
1,325
113
Tulsa, OK
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Trouble ?

Mat 5:29

'But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Mat 5:30

'And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Mat 10:28

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,938
8,379
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you have no hope if Jesus didn't pay your debt on the cross, then seek the Biblical Jesus and Biblical Atonement.

I notice that you appeal to what Bible does say about Jesus in your post! You appeal to the Sacrificial System and not some Western Judicial System that is foreign to the Bible!

The Lamb of God "takes away the sin of the world..." He does not pay for sins or a fine. No Sacrifice in all of Scripture is said to be punished, or said to be a "payment."
the lamb took the sins of the people away by shedding its blood on the mercy seat or the alter

If you learn nothing else from the law. Which paul said was a schoolmaster to lead is to Christ. that is one of the most important thing you should have learned. The other of course being that you failed to live up to Gods standard. and as such are cursed by the law because of your failure to keep all of the words of the law as written to obey them.
 

Candidus

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,620
1,382
113
64
Kuna
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
By the way, I have hope.. Jesus said it is finished

He did not say I am done, I finished my work, Now you do your work.

Actually, He did say that. After Jesus said "It is finished!" He instructed the Disciples to: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
"He [Jesus] said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem."
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,990
19,599
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
If you have no hope if Jesus didn't pay your debt on the cross, then seek the Biblical Jesus and Biblical Atonement.

I notice that you appeal to what Bible does say about Jesus in your post! You appeal to the Sacrificial System and not some Western Judicial System that is foreign to the Bible!

The Lamb of God "takes away the sin of the world..." He does not pay for sins or a fine. No Sacrifice in all of Scripture is said to be punished, or said to be a "payment."


Although Jesus died as a propitiation by buying back His creation from the temporal hijackers...the devil and his political structure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: faithfulness

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,938
8,379
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Actually, He did say that. After Jesus said "It is finished!" He instructed the Disciples to: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
"He [Jesus] said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem."
Yes he did

That is our job, To go and preach Christ crucified and resurrected. To preach that God has restored mankind to himself through his sn. To Make disciples out of every nation. To enter the gates of hell, and rescue people out of his domain.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,990
19,599
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
By the way, I have hope.. Jesus said it is finished

He did not say I am done, I finished my work, Now you do your work.


You are exactly wrong. Jesus said as I overcame now YOU overcome as I did.

Rev. 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

You think you will not be judged for your actions. Dead wrong. We will each give an account for everything we said, did and thought.

Jesus job was finished ....but ours is still in play. Not everyone ends up with Christ ruling and reigning over creation. Many are rejected and many others are the ones being ruled over.

So you will have to think beyond the binary box you have put God in.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,990
19,599
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
the lamb took the sins of the people away by shedding its blood on the mercy seat or the alter

If you learn nothing else from the law. Which paul said was a schoolmaster to lead is to Christ. that is one of the most important thing you should have learned. The other of course being that you failed to live up to Gods standard. and as such are cursed by the law because of your failure to keep all of the words of the law as written to obey them.


This is false of course. They who are led by the Spirit are not under the law. We ARE to live up to God's standard....by grace through faith. Not of ourselves, but by the resurrection power of Christ. Otherwise you are still trying to justify yourself with filthy rags.

And before we grow into the full stature of Christ there is training...in the wilderness experience of they who need to be renewed in their way of thinking. Most believers don't make it through that so as to possess the land. Very few will make it through. Most will be led astray, remain carnal, believe a lie....etc....so as to not bear an eternal kind of fruit.

So we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling...knowing the terror of the Lord.

But we can be bold through love to approach God for His grace (power) to walk as Jesus walked.

But this is far too much truth for you to handle already... ;)