Eph 1:13 sealed & saved yet still go to lake of fire ???

[PeterAndroz]

In an Australian forum that I read from time to time this very same question was asked yet no-one was willing to answer.
Assuming the 'mark of the beast' is official as of next month,
If we today who are Eph 1:13 saved & sealed take the 'mark of the beast' will we go to the 'lake of fire' ?

 

[Marty fox]

In an Australian forum that I read from time to time this very same question was asked yet no-one was willing to answer.
Assuming the 'mark of the beast' is official as of next month,
If we today who are Eph 1:13 saved & sealed take the 'mark of the beast' will we go to the 'lake of fire' ?

For the answer, what exactly is the mark of the beast? A literal mark or a symbolic mark?

If we are saved and sealed how can it be a literal mark?

 

[PeterAndroz]

For the answer, what exactly is the mark of the beast? A literal mark or a symbolic mark?

If we are saved and sealed how can it be a literal mark?

The mark of the beast in Rev 14:9-11
If Marty is an Eph 1:13 sealed & saved believer yet takes the Rev 14:9-11 'mark of the beast', will Marty go to the lake of fire ?
..

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[ScottA]

In an Australian forum that I read from time to time this very same question was asked yet no-one was willing to answer.
Assuming the 'mark of the beast' is official as of next month,
If we today who are Eph 1:13 saved & sealed take the 'mark of the beast' will we go to the 'lake of fire' ?

Would God take the mark of the beast?
Would one born of God take the mark of the beast?
Would one saved take the mark of the beast?

The question and circumstances are the same, and so is the answer.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Would God take the mark of the beast?
Would one born of God take the mark of the beast?
Would one saved take the mark of the beast?

The question and circumstances are the same, and so is the answer.

If Scott is Eph 1:13 sealed & saved then takes the Rev 14:9-11 MOTB, will Scott go to the Rev 14:9-11 LOF ?

 

[ScottA]

If Scott is Eph 1:13 sealed & saved then takes the Rev 14:9-11 MOTB, will Scott go to the Rev 14:9-11 LOF ?

"If" is a big word in this case. "If" you had understood, you would know I have answered already.

"If" one is born of God they are one with God, and therefore would never take the mark of the beast.

But do you understand that is after-the-fact?

 

[Marty fox]

The mark of the beast in Rev 14:9-11
If Marty is an Eph 1:13 sealed & saved believer yet takes the Rev 14:9-11 'mark of the beast', will Marty go to the lake of fire ?
..

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

What did Jesus say is the unforgivable sin?

 

[Stumpmaster]

In an Australian forum that I read from time to time this very same question was asked yet no-one was willing to answer.
Assuming the 'mark of the beast' is official as of next month,
If we today who are Eph 1:13 saved & sealed take the 'mark of the beast' will we go to the 'lake of fire' ?

Nobody professing faith in Christ goes to the Lake of Fire unless they A - P - O - S - T - A - T - I - S - E

Definition: To forsake, abandon, or renounce one’s faith, belief, or allegiance. (Collins Dictionary)

 

[PeterAndroz]

"If" is a big word in this case. "If" you had understood, you would know I have answered already.

"If" one is born of God they are one with God, and therefore would never take the mark of the beast.

But do you understand that is after-the-fact?

Scott is Eph 1:13 sealed & saved because Scott believes & trusts the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel
While continuing to trust & believe the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel Scott takes the Rev 14:9-11 MOTB.
As a result of doing that does Scott go to the Rev 14:9-11 LOF ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Nobody professing faith in Christ goes to the Lake of Fire unless they A - P - O - S - T - A - T - I - S - E

Definition: To forsake, abandon, or renounce one’s faith, belief, or allegiance. (Collins Dictionary)

Fred is Eph 1:13 sealed & saved because Fred trusts & believes the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel.
Fred never stopped trusting & believing the Gospel.
Fred took the Rev 14:9-11 MOTB.
Does Fred go to the Rev 14:9-11 LOF ?

 

[ScottA]

Scott is Eph 1:13 sealed & saved because Scott believes & trusts the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel
While continuing to trust & believe the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel Scott takes the Rev 14:9-11 MOTB.
As a result of doing that does Scott go to the Rev 14:9-11 LOF ?

If you'd like, we can explore:

• The theological debate on perseverance vs. eternal security during end-times scenarios
• How different Christian traditions interpret the nature of the Mark of the Beast

Let me know which angle you want to break down further.

 

[Davy]

In an Australian forum that I read from time to time this very same question was asked yet no-one was willing to answer.
Assuming the 'mark of the beast' is official as of next month,
If we today who are Eph 1:13 saved & sealed take the 'mark of the beast' will we go to the 'lake of fire' ?

Those of Ephesians 1 will not take the mark of the beast, but will instead rather be prepared to die for Jesus Christ when delivered up to give a Witness by The Holy Spirit. See Mark 13.

And the "lake of fire" is not... the abode of 'hell' (haides). The "lake of fire" event that destroys the wicked who still will reject Jesus Christ are those born of woman and only happens after Christ's future "thousand years" reign and opening of the books at the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[Davidpt]

The OP keeps on insisting that Revelation 14:9-11 is the LOF.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


If the LOF is in view here, and that they have no rest day and night is meaning forever, the text requires that the above has to be undertood like such, based on what verse 10 says.

Before we get to that, look what verse 10 says---The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation

Compare with

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


Does it sound like the LOF is in view here, in both Revelation 16 and Revelation 18 that I submitted?

Getting back to my point in regard to Revelation 14:9-11. If the 'they have no rest day or night is meaning while they are i the LOF, and is meaning forever, it needs to be understood in this manner then.

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb, day and night for ever and ever. IOW, they can't be tormented with fire and brimstone unless Christ is present at the time. And if Christ is present day and night for ever and ever as they are being tormented with fire and brimstone, why then does Revelation 21-22 record that Christ is in the NJ day and night for ever and ever instead? How can He be in both places day and night forever and ever at the same time?

Plus, look at the following.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

This is said right after verses 9-11. What in the world does verse 12 have to with the LOF and Revelation 20:11-15?

There are 7 vials of wrath that get poured upon those that have the MOTB. It is during when the vials are being unleashed on them that they have no rest day or night. And that when they are tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb, it is meaning during the 7th vial of wrath, also meaning Ezekiel 38:22. That too involves great hailstones, as does the 7th vial per Revelation 16, and that Ezekiel 38:22 adds this--- and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain , and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone ---which equals this in Revelation 14:10--- and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IOW, Scripture interprets Scripture.

 

[Davy]

It's because there's more detail about the wicked perishing in the future "lake of fire" given in The Old Testament, like Psalms 37 where it says the wicked will consume away. Thus the Rev.14 smoke that rises forever is meant to be symbolic of their annihilation in the "lake of fire" with the resulting smoke rising for ever and ever.

Yet that casting into the future "lake of fire" does not occur until after... Christ's "thousand years" reign over the wicked and unsaved. And because the book of life is checked one last time after the "thousand years" to see any more names are written in it for eternal Life, that suggests at least some of those unsaved will convert to Lord Jesus Christ during that "thousand years" and be saved and become joined with those of the "first resurrection".

Per the end of Rev.20, the abode of hell (Haides) where the wicked are, will go into the "lake of fire" and be destroyed.

So I believe those who take the mark will be in the "outer darkness" outside the holy city all throughout the "thousand years", like Rev.22:14-15 shows.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Fred took the Rev 14:9-11 MOTB.

Fred A - P - O - S - T - A - T - I - S - E - D
Bye-bye Fred.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Fred A - P - O - S - T - A - T - I - S - E - D
Bye-bye Fred.

That's interesting SM because 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 teaches that a believer IS not will be but IS saved & sealed if they hear, trust, believe the 1 Cor 15:1-4 gospel.
So now there's a problem or contradiction since where does Paul teach that a saved/sealed believer who trusts & believes the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel can become UNsealed & UNsaved by sinning ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Those of Ephesians 1 will not take the mark of the beast, but will instead rather be prepared to die for Jesus Christ when delivered up to give a Witness by The Holy Spirit. See Mark 13.

And the "lake of fire" is not... the abode of 'hell' (haides). The "lake of fire" event that destroys the wicked who still will reject Jesus Christ are those born of woman and only happens after Christ's future "thousand years" reign and opening of the books at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Davy is sealed & saved by believing & trusting the Gospel - 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30
Now family, friends & other people that Davy knows are rounded up and one by one will be shot dead unless Davy takes the MOB.
What will Davy do ?
Will Davy just watch his brothers, sisters, parents, grand parents, cousins, wife, children, close friends be shot dead one at a time until he takes the MOB or will he take the MOB so his family & friends are spared ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

If you'd like, we can explore:

• The theological debate on perseverance vs. eternal security during end-times scenarios
• How different Christian traditions interpret the nature of the Mark of the Beast

Let me know which angle you want to break down further.

Scenario is :-
Scott takes the Rev 14:9-11 MOB tomorrow.
By doing that will Scott go to the Rev 14:9-11 LOF ?
It's an easy YES or NO question :)

 

[Lambano]

That's interesting SM because 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 teaches that a believer IS not will be but IS saved & sealed if they hear, trust, believe the 1 Cor 15:1-4 gospel.
So now there's a problem or contradiction since where does Paul teach that a saved/sealed believer who trusts & believes the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel can become UNsealed & UNsaved by sinning ?

Ah yes, the "holding firm" clause in verse 2 of that gospel.

If you take the Mark of the Beast, are you holding firm?

Is believing a doctrine about Christ's death the same as trusting and being faithful to the person of Jesus Christ? Or only a part of faithfulness?

 

[CrowCross]

Would God take the mark of the beast?
Would one born of God take the mark of the beast?
Would one saved take the mark of the beast?

The question and circumstances are the same, and so is the answer.

I would think a tribulation saint would be wise to it...Today we can "peer" into the future and put together the hints in Revelation...but...when you're actually living in the tribulation, seen the 4 horseman, two witnesses and so forth...watching Revelation unfold in real time..and if you manage to survive to Revelation 13...saw, was part of it and watched 7 "Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation"....I would think a true Holy Spirit filled believer would know about taking the mark and the repercussion of the skin boils and being chucked into the lake of fire.

This also answers the @PeterAndroz question.