Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14

[Hiddenthings]

You decide who is saved? And no doubt that would be according to your definitions and false doctrines.

The New Covenant does dak - how many times must you be told?

And he avoids any mention of brides or wives like the plague when speaking of believers.

You cannot even speak to his arguments!

I do not agree with your opinions at all: why have you not quoted and exegeted the relevant statements? In my reading of the text it says die by the Torah, not die to the Torah. If you do not allow the Torah to do its job then you are not yet "in Meshiah", for the Torah has become our schoolmaster into Meshiah, (Gal 3:24).

So, you believe you stay under the tutoring of the old School Master?

Moreover regarding Romans 7, this is where Paul also says emphatically that the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), and how many times has that been stated and referenced to you from me so far in our discussions?

Of course, its spiritual dak, Who do you think delivered it to Moses?

It's probably been at least five times now. Moreover, at the end of the Rom 7 passage, Paul states that with the mind he serves the torah-instruction of Elohim, but with the flesh he serves the torah-instruction of the sin-offering, (but explaining that would take a whole other thread and you have rejected so much from the Testimony of the Master you would surely not believe that either).

Also, are you not aware of what the Master says about taking up your own stake and following him? He says that his talmidim-disciples and followers must utterly deny themselves, not the Torah.

Apart from quite a few other companion passages and statements, I quote the following, (while not ignoring the others).

Luke 14:25-35
25 And there were going on with Him great multitudes, and having turned, He said to them,
26 If anyone comes to me, and does not hate [love less] his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and yet even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple;
27 and whoever does not bear his own stake, and come after me, he cannot be my disciple.
28 For who of you, willing to build a tower, does not first, having sat down, count the expense, whether he has the things for completing?
29 Lest that he having laid a foundation, and not being able to finish, all who are beholding may begin to mock him,
30 saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king going on to engage with another king in war, does not, having sat down, first consult if he with ten thousand is able to meet him who is coming against him with twenty thousand?
32 And if not so—he being yet a long way off—having sent a delegation, he asks the things for peace.
33 So then, everyone of you who does not forsake all that he has, he cannot be my disciple.
34 The salt [is] good, but if the salt becomes tasteless, with what will it be seasoned? [Mrk 9:50]
35 It is neither fit for land nor for manure—they cast it outside. He who is having ears to hear—let him hear."

Moreover Luke 14:26 is one of the places from where Paul received his teaching in Rom 7 regarding the war that is supposed to be ongoing in your "members". Without the parables and teachings of the Master you will not understand Paul, for he even states it outright and makes it known to the reader of his writings: he teaches the commandments of the Master.

Still no mention of the Abrahamic Covenant.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@dak

What are the Oracles of God?

Hebrews 5:8–14 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Let's see if we can find agreement on something!

I believe this is referring to the Law of Moses. I also believe the New Testament is a commentary on the Old Testament.

Do you agree?

 

[dak]

As was said dak - attempting to follow both is spiritual adultery

If you had not noticed, I plan to go through all of your posts and respond in the order they were posted. It's probably not a good idea for you to post two to five posts in a row because you will surely only confuse yourself and maybe some other readers who might be trying to follow the discussion.

As for the post above a single example should be sufficient for now:

Matthew 13:34-35 KJV
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 13:51-52 KJV
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

If you know the places from where most of the parables in Matthew 13 derive, then I should not need to explain to you the meaning of the words quoted and highlighted above. If you do not know, then what were you doing during all those years of studying the scripture you claimed to have under your belt? Wasn't it you who recently bragged that you've been studying the scripture for 30 years? or was it 40? I cannot remember since it wasn't important to me at the time.

CLUE: One must actually believe what he or she reads within its context, and including the context, (which reveals the Logos), in order to begin studying in prayerful humbleness of heart, with an open mind and heart to receive from the Most High.

Doing word searches and scripture quote mining is not studying: it is cherry picking statements and small passages, ripping them from their contexts, and building a scripture wall of one or two liners all pasted together to form a new doctrine, for the doers of that practice are essentially deleting the Logos by removing a small statement in a verse or two from its context so that they may insert their own privately held logos-reasoning into the text.

 

[Hiddenthings]

If you had not noticed, I plan to go through all of your posts and respond in the order they were posted. It's probably not a good idea for you to post two to five posts in a row because you will surely only confuse yourself and maybe some other readers who might be trying to follow the discussion.

As for the post above a single example should be sufficient for now:

Matthew 13:34-35 KJV
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 13:51-52 KJV
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

If you know the places from where most of the parables in Matthew 13 derive, then I should not need to explain to you the meaning of the words quoted and highlighted above. If you do not know, then what were you doing during all those years of studying the scripture you claimed to have under your belt? Wasn't it you who recently bragged that you've been studying the scripture for 30 years? or was it 40? I cannot remember since it wasn't important to me at the time.

CLUE: One must actually believe what he or she reads within its context, and including the context, (which reveals the Logos), in order to begin studying in prayerful humbleness of heart, with an open mind and heart to receive from the Most High.

Doing word searches and scripture quote mining is not studying: it is cherry picking statements and small passages, ripping them from their contexts, and building a scripture wall of one or two liners all pasted together to form a new doctrine, for the doers of that practice are essentially deleting the Logos by removing a small statement in a verse or two from its context so that they may insert their own privately held logos-reasoning into the text.

Do you realise not one word about deals with my post - not a single word.

Allow me to explain "again" in the hope you might speak to the actual content of my post.

The law holds authority over a person only during their lifetime. Since Romans 6 establishes that the believer has died with Christ, it logically follows that the law no longer holds power over them. While the law may still apply to others, its authority has been nullified for those who, by faith, receive the righteousness of God through Christ. For such individuals, the law is abolished (but not dak!), not in the sense that its moral standards are discarded, but that its power to condemn has been removed. The life of grace still upholds the ethical principles the law reflects, even though believers are no longer judged by it.

This is not as difficult as you are making it dak!

Attempting to follow both is spiritual adultery - Do you understand the principle?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Do you realise not one word about deals with my post - not a single word.

Allow me to explain "again" in the hope you might speak to the actual content of my post.

The law holds authority over a person only during their lifetime. Since Romans 6 establishes that the believer has died with Christ, it logically follows that the law no longer holds power over them. While the law may still apply to others, its authority has been nullified for those who, by faith, receive the righteousness of God through Christ. For such individuals, the law is abolished (but not dak!), not in the sense that its moral standards are discarded, but that its power to condemn has been removed. The life of grace still upholds the ethical principles the law reflects, even though believers are no longer judged by it.

This is not as difficult as you are making it dak!

Attempting to follow both is spiritual adultery - Do you understand the principle?

I'm replying to my own posts now (wow)

Literally, THE SPIRIT was poured out under the “New Covenant” in Christ, called newness of spirit. It was not evident under the Law, called “Old Covenant” or “oldness of the letter.”

Galatians 3:1–5 1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

@dak I've color coded it for ease of understanding.

Spiritual adultery would be endeavoring to be married to the Flesh (Law) and Christ simultaneously.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@dak - you did not answer my question - were you raised as a child under the Law of Moses (Torah)?

 

[dak]

As was said dak - attempting to follow both is spiritual adultery

Already refuted and repeating the same thing over and over does not prove you right in your false assumptions.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Already refuted and repeating the same thing over and over does not prove you right in your false assumptions.

You can’t dismiss the analogy in Romans 7:1–2, no matter how hard you try. You’re faced with a choice: either accept it and apply it as intended, or reject it outright. There’s no room dak's own personal interpretation.

 

[dak]

You cling to earthly training while what has been shown you is spiritual maturity in Christ Jesus.

False accusation: or, prove it, prove from the scripture that I cling to "earthly training".
Better yet, please take a look in a mirror.

Every member I know recognises the depth of this subject and understands its truth, that we are dead to the law and alive in Christ.

Appealing to a majority opinion of men (and-or women) proves nothing to me.

Keep trying dak if you must but I will be here to reveal the true Gospel of God.

But you still have never done so as far as I have seen.

 

[dak]

An example of this is Jesus who was subject to Mary and Joseph: Luke 2:51
Effectively what you are trying to do is place Jesus back with Mary and Joseph.
Can't happen - impossible!

Nonsensical gibberish from someone who claims to be revealing the Gospel.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The Book of Hebrews is an exposition of how Christ fulfilled the Law: “the first principles of the Oracles of God.” The offerings, duties of the high priest... etc. were NOT the fulfillment of the Divine purpose, but were a “figure” or “pattern” of one “better” i.e Jesus Christ:

Heb 10:1 “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect”

Heb 9:8-9 “The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present… It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us”

Heb 8:4-5 “For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest... Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount” (very precisely)

The most finite details concerning the precise “pattern” of the Tabernacle are the things that established the figures or shadows of the Spirit, or Truth. Christ fulfilled “every jot or tittle”, smallest letter and tiniest distinguishing mark (Matt 5:18).

Understanding how Christ is the Substance and not the Law is the main point in Hebrews.

It is important to explore how the figure, pattern spoke to the true image as is seen in he who fulfilled the requirements of the Law.

 

[dak]

This is interesting, openly acknowledging the meaning, yet unable to grasp or interpret Paul’s arguments and conclusions.
How are you able to do that and still respond with such error?

More privately held opinions based in the machinations of your own imagination. It seems our discussion as almost come to a close since it appears at this point that you have nothing more to offer than false accusations.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Heb 8:1-2 “We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man”

• The Law was a “shadow” and “image” of Christ; “the substance” (Col 2:17). The details concerning the Tabernacle, more than any other subject in the Mosaic represented the central focus of Israel (Exo 25-40). From the materials collected to build it, to the encampment Israel round about it (Num 1-4), its purpose was that the glory of Yahweh would dwell in His people:

Exo 25:8 “And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them”

• The Mosaic “pattern” (v.9) revealed how Yahweh would be manifested in men. The physical structure was merely a “shadow” of the Divine intent:

1 Cor 3:16-17 “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” (1Pet 2:5; Eph 2:19-22; 2Cor 6:14-18)

1 Cor 6:19-20 “Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and YE ARE NOT YOUR OWN? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your Spirit, which are God’s”

• The temporary Tabernacle (Mosaic) was to convey principles of the Spirit-Temple (permanent); that Yahweh would be glorified in His people (Heb 3).

No man would cling to the temporary when the permanent is known and understood and believe upon.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No matter how we approach this subject, it becomes clear that @dak's position is undermined by every text, analogy, and ensample presented.

 

[Hiddenthings]

With his name attached to the Law —“the Law of Moses”—the man Moses was a representation of the Law. The expression “Law of Moses” does not appear until the book of Joshua (Jos 8:31-32).

Note carefully the words:

Exo 40:34-35 “And the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And Moses was NOT able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.”

The glory of Yahweh was manifested in His Son:

John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth”*

Young’s Lit. Tran. “did tabernacle” (Lev 26:11-12). Christ was the substance or Spirit fulfillment designed in Tabernacle: manifesting the glory of the Father (John 17).

John 2:19-21 “Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up… But he spake of the temple of his body” (Mat 26:60-61)

THE Spirit of Christ fulfilled the Letter of the Law

John 1:17-18 “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”* unfold, origin

“Truth” is a specific term related to the Lord Jesus Christ (Jam 5:22; 3:16-21; 8:32-46; 14:6; 18:37-38; 16:7,13; 17:17-20; 15:8; Mat 22:16; Gal 3:1-5; 5:1-7)

TBC...

 

[dak]

Out of interest where you trained by the Law of Moses, did it speak to you and where you held "under it?" Romans 3:19?

Might explain why you have this "thing" for the Law.

We are all to be taught of Elohim:

Isaiah 54:11-13 KJV
11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Isaiah 54:13 OG LXX (Septuagint)
13 And all thy sons shall be taught of God, and thy children shall be in great peace.

John 6:44-45 KJV
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. [Isa 54:13] Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. [Gal 3:24]

Isaiah 8:13-20
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the Testimony, seal the Torah among my disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me [Heb 2:13] are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the Torah and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Hebrews 2:13 KJV
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. [Isa 8:18]

Bind up the Testimony, seal the Torah among my disciples.......To the Torah and the Testimony: if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them.......(see also John 11:9-10).

You are way out of your league, not because of me, but because you are at war against the Father and His Word. But speaking of Mosheh, we know he is not dead, for Elohim is not elohim of the dead.

 

[dak]

As I mentioned, you've already been given plenty to consider. From Paul's analogies of law added (prothesis), to the pedagogue to the dead husband! If these aren't enough to convince you, then nothing else likely will.

You didn't care to notice that all of those things were already refuted above; and some of them even for the second time now? You are apparently just as stiff-necked as I used to be before I found out the hard way.

 

[dak]

It's an ignorant mindset to set aside the teachings of Paul for your own.

Then why do you keep doing it?

To completely disregard the faith and covenant of Abraham is, spiritually speaking, self-destructive.

Another false insinuation-accusation.

Honestly, I've spoken with staunch Torah promoters, but I've never encountered someone who claims to be a Christian and yet denies the very foundation of salvation by faith.

I know that you do not understand what you speak of herein above.

Moreover:

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto Me, all you belabored and overburdened ones, and I will give you rest.
29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am meek and humble in heart, and you will find rest unto your souls:
30 for my yoke is Chrestos, (Good, Gracious), and my burden is light.

Luke 5:37-39
37 And no one puts neos-new wine into old wineskins, for if so, the neos-new wine will burst the wineskins, and the wine itself will be poured out, and the wineskins will be destroyed:
38 but neos-new wine is put into kainos-renewed wineskins, and both are preserved together.
39 And no one having drunk the old desires the new, for he says, The old is Chrestos! (Good, Gracious).

1 Peter 2:1-3
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the Word, that you may grow thereby:
3 if indeed you have tasted that YAH ו IS CHRESTOS. (Good, Gracious)

Ι̅Η Χ̅Ρ

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The fact that you haven’t referenced any of Paul’s teachings on the faith of Abraham and its superiority over the Law is baffling.

That's not true either, it's just not yet here because I am too busy answered to all of your false accusations, insinuations, and perversions of the scripture. See what you have done? You are derailing this thread with all of you condemnations, false judgments, and untenable interpretations of the scripture including the writings of Paul.

It’s not even a matter of natural reasoning, anyone with a natural mind can read Romans and Hebrews and understand that the New Covenant is based on faith, not the Law. There is no logical explanation that explains your position.

The Gospel Truth is foolishness to those that are perishing.

 

[dak]

This truth still stands as truth in terms of the two covenants stills stands. You agree the Law was a bondslave and yet you wish to remove the Abrahamic Covenant and place Sarah in bondage.

@dak what's more concerning is your serious.

View attachment 68667

Again, already refuted in another thread: you did not believe the scripture, not even from Paul whom you claim to believe, but apparently only when you can wrest his words in order to force them to agree with your paradigm king.

 

[dak]

@dak - you did not answer my question - were you raised as a child under the Law of Moses (Torah)?

Yes.

But how many of my questions have you answered? The answer is none.
I am growing tired of your petty games.