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BreadOfLife

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Of course I believe in the resurrection of the body. Resurrection is the means by which the dead are made alive.

Since you’re here, what do you think about @theefaith’s defense of Catholicism?
Before I discuss Theefaith’s beliefs – why did you seemingly reject the idea that our bodies will rejoin our souls in Heaven in their glorified state?
 

Matthias

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Before I discuss Theefaith’s beliefs – why did you seemingly reject the idea that our bodies will rejoin our souls in Heaven in their glorified state?

I don’t believe what you believe. I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a Catholic.

Now your assessment of theefaith’s beliefs. He’s been harshly criticized by some members of the forum - trinitarian and non-trinitarian alike. To the best of my knowledge, no Catholic member of the forums has yet come to his defense.

I count him as a friend and have told him so. I’ll stand in his defense if / when no one else will.
 

BreadOfLife

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Q
I don’t believe what you believe. I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a Catholic.

Now your assessment of theefaith’s beliefs. He’s been harshly criticized by some members of the forum - trinitarian and non-trinitarian alike. To the best of my knowledge, no Catholic member of the forums has yet come to his defense.

I count him as a friend and have told him so. I’ll stand in his defense if / when no one else will.
Although he and I agree on much – he is a sedevacantist, who believes that the chair of Peter is vacant.
I am not schismatic – and am in full communion with the Bishop of Rome. He not my favorite Pope – but that’s NOT for me to decide,

As for much of this particular debate – I think the answer lies in 1 John 3:2.
“Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.”


I don’t think theefaith is claiming we will be “Equal” to Jesus – but about sharing in His diving nature in Heaven. And that’s what Athanasius’s quote was about.
If he IS making this claim – this is not correct.
 
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Matthias

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“… ‘that we might become God’ is better translated as ‘that we might be deified.’ The Greek word for ‘deified,’ theopoiethomen, has the connotation of participation in rather than becoming God. … This participation in the divine nature is commonly referred to as theosis or divinization.”

(Catholic Answers, “What ‘So that We Might Become God’ Means”)

What “So that We Might Become God” Means
 

Matthias

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“Where the English translation says, quoting St. Athanasius of Alexandria in the fourth century, ‘For the son of God became man so that we might become God,’ the official Latin text reads, Ipse siquidem homo factus est, ut nos dii efficeremur. Literal translation, ‘For the Son of God became man so that we might be made gods.’ The Latin term dii translated ‘God’ in the English translation of the Catechism is nominative plural and is not capitalized. Unfortunately, the English translation of the official Latin text gets it wrong. ‘God’ should be ‘gods.’… what we have here is a poor translation of the actual, official, and normative Latin text of CCC 460. But we should keep in mind that translations are just that: translations. It is only the original Latin text that is authoritative. …

The Catholic Church teaches that we do become ‘gods’ but only in that sense of participation in the divine nature, as we’ve said. …”

(Tim Staples, Catholic Answers, “Are We Gods?”)

Are We Gods?
 

Matthias

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“The word theosis is not found in the Bible. It was first used by some early Christian theologians who developed the concept and doctrine of theosis. Theosis is a transliteration of a Greek word, from the root theos, which means ‘god.’ So, theosis literally means ‘being made god,’ or ‘being made like god.’ Some theologians use the word ‘deification’ or ‘divinization’ instead. The meaning of the word is simple, but explaining deification is complex.”

(Goran Medved, “Theosis (Deification) as a Biblical and Historical Doctrine”)

https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/319716

An interesting academic paper, but long. I haven’t had time yet to do more than skim through it.

I wonder how many of our readers are aware of this doctrine?

Are you @theefaith?

You will, hopefully, recall that I believe Jesus is divine, i.e. godlike.
 
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theefaith

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Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 10:9-13
King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


THUS SAYETH THE LORD!

when where you saved?
 

theefaith

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WELL AS BY YOUR OWN HAND YOU CONSIDER ME A BLASPHEMNER AND UNSAVED, I WILL TAKE THESE AS A BADGE OF HONOR.

YOU TWISAT THE SCRUIPTURES TO CONFORM TO CATHOLIC CANON AND DOGMA INSTEAD OF ALTERING DOGMA TO CONFORM TO SCRIPTURE. yYOU AND THOSE WHO LIED TO YOU WILL STAND BEFORE GOD THE FATHER AND GIVE ACCOUNT FOR THAT.

dogma is immutable
 

theefaith

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You didn’t answer the questions I asked.

Do you believe that you will one day become God?

Me: Absolutely not!

“The Son of God became man so that we might become God.”

At best, provocative. At worst, blasphemy.

I don’t know - and may never know - if you believe that you and other Catholics will become God some day or not. I’m certain that you won’t.

Are you certain that’s in the creed?

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!
 

theefaith

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Why do you think they need their rotted corpses resurrected to life?
Cos God promised the resurrection of the body

See the
The Apostles Creed!

I believe in one God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.
 

theefaith

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Until Christ died on the cross heaven was closed
The veil in the temple represented this fact
Souls go to christ when the body dies to the first or particular judgment then to heaven or hell
 

theefaith

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GOD DIED

Perish the thought!

WE MIGHT BECOME GOD

Let the reader recoil in abject horror at even the suggestion of such things.

it is only that Jesus is God that his blood is an acceptable sacrifice for the redemption Jn 1:29
 

Matthias

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Are you certain that’s in the creed?

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!

Do you see the Catholic teaching that you will be gods expressed in the Athanasian creed?
 

Matthias

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Cos God promised the resurrection of the body

See the
The Apostles Creed!

I believe in one God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

Yes, but the question is why.

As an aside, I see in the Apostles’ creed that only one person - my God - is identified as the creator of heaven and earth.
 

Matthias

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it is only that Jesus is God that his blood is an acceptable sacrifice for the redemption Jn 1:29

Continuing in verse 30,

“This is he on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who has a higher rank than I, for he existed before me.’”

Another part of the witness in John that Jesus is the Jewish man who is the promised Messiah.

The one God, the living God, didn’t die.

It was Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of the living God, the lamb of God, a man, who died.
 

Ronald Nolette

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dogma is immutable

You sound just like the Pharisees! they had their volumes of Canon Law and this is what Jesus had to say about their dogma:

Mark 7:3-13
King James Version

3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

Pay close attention to verse 7!

Romanism is going to hear these worda bvout their volumes of Canon Law and dogma!

As solomon wrote- there is nothing new under the sun. And to paraphrase in todays vernacular- what goes around comes around!

12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
 

theefaith

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Yes, but the question is why.

As an aside, I see in the Apostles’ creed that only one person - my God - is identified as the creator of heaven and earth.

cos Christ’s redemption is complete
 

theefaith

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Continuing in verse 30,

“This is he on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who has a higher rank than I, for he existed before me.’”

Another part of the witness in John that Jesus is the Jewish man who is the promised Messiah.

The one God, the living God, didn’t die.

It was Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of the living God, the lamb of God, a man, who died.

how could Jesus exist before John?
John was conceived first???