Equal to Christ!

[theefaith]

Come on now. You know what I believe and teach. You’ve probably heard trinitarians say that I have no love of the truth and that what I teach and believe is a lie.

You also know that I’m an ex-trinitarian. I once believed in and taught others the doctrine of the Trinity. (I still teach people about the doctrine of the Trinity.) I’ve walked away from trinitarianism, abandoned it, speak openly against it. I offer something which I’m convinced is better in its place - Primitive Christianity, Jewish monotheism - and urge others to consider doing the same.

You know I’ve read the Athanasian creed. I’ve probably read it many more times than the average Protestant has. You’ve brought it to my attention on several occasions. I know what it says. You know what it says. I reject it.

Let’s jump in Mr. Peabody’s Wayback Machine and set the dial to the days of the Spanish Inquisition. We’re having this conversation then, not now. You ask me to repent and come back. No, I can’t in good conscience do that. You ask me then to please, at least, don’t tell anyone what I believe and, whatever else I do, to cease teaching heresy. No, I can’t in good conscience stop teaching what I believe to be true and you believe to be false.

Where does that leave me in the eyes of the RCC?

An unrepentant heretic who refuses to stop teaching lies.

What happens next? We know what happens next.

Jumping back - quickly! - into the Wayback Machine, we set the dial for right now.

Nothing has changed in regard to what I believe and teach. I’m the same unrepentant heretic teaching what the RCC believes are lies now that I was when we visited the days of the Inquisition.

So, is it for me or is it not?

I have a question about this idea you have regarding the church.

the church is founded by God so it is eternal and ir-reformable.
The same in all ages, the same doctrine, eph 4:5 one faith Jude 1:3 deposit of faith

so there can be no primitive Christian church different from what we have now even though doctrine may be more developed or better understood or defined but it’s still the same faith

 

[theefaith]

That sounds like splitting hairs to me, but maybe it isn’t.

I’m a follower of the Messiah. I’m a disciple of Rabbi Jesus. I have faith in him and my faith is his faith.

It’s a covenant not a Bible study
By faith and baptism we become members of Christ thru grace

 

[Matthias]

It’s a covenant not a Bible study
By faith and baptism we become members of Christ thru grace

I’m under the new covenant, despite trinitarian insistence to the contrary.

 

[Matthias]

I have a question about this idea you have regarding the church.

the church is founded by God so it is eternal and ir-reformable.
The same in all ages, the same doctrine, eph 4:5 one faith Jude 1:3 deposit of faith

The head of the Church is the Messiah. The head of the Messiah is God. Otherwise, I’m in agreement with your setup.

so there can be no primitive Christian church different from what we have now even though doctrine may be more developed or better understood or defined but it’s still the same faith

I’m not in agreement with your conclusion. Paul spoke in Acts 29 of savage wolves which would, and even were in his day, which would come into the church, not sparing the flock. In Matthew 24 Jesus warns about false Messiah’s and false prophets working miracles in order to deceive the sheep.

I don’t expect you to believe it but I believe that has been going on since the middle of the 1st century.

I’ve quoted one of your scholars, Father Fortman, who acknowledged that the original apostles themselves weren’t trinitarians. The doctrine of the Trinity wasn’t their doctrine. The Church developed it over a time span of several centuries.

You’ll recall, I think, the quotes I provided from the Protestant scholar, Dr. Brown. He asked the crucial question: was the post-biblical development of the doctrine of the Trinity legitimate? He was certain that it was, as I’m confident you are.

I’m sure you’re getting tired of hearing it, and I know that you know it, but I’m a Jewish monotheist. As such, I don’t believe it was a legitimate development.

The Messiah has a God, a God whom he says is his God and my God; his God wasn’t, isn’t and never will be the Trinity. That is why I say that what the Church did - see again the quote I provided from Gregory of Nyssa in post #114 - isn’t legitimate.

Again, I want to say that I don’t expect you to say it wasn’t legitimate. I say all of this so you will understand not only what I believe but why I believe it.

 

[Taken]

@theefaith ”The doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is the only source of authority”

Same ole repetitious bloviating, NEVER addressing what BIBLE ALONE means.

IF you want to DISAGREE, Disagree on what BIBLE ALONE actually MEANS!

Bible ALONE is sufficient to KNOW Jesus’ DOCTRINE!
Bible ALONE is sufficient to VERIFY what others CLAIM is Scriptural.!
Bible ALONE is sufficient to CORRECT erroneous knowledge!
Bible ALONE is sufficient for INSTRUCTION in righteousness.

You going on and on and on and on and on and on ... about men your Catholic Church has appointed to teach you, or old dead men opinions your Catholic Church ADDS to Jesus’ Doctrine, or Counsels of Catholic men who have Made-Up Doctrines and Creeds and Traditions and Rituals...

NO BODY CARES YOU CHOOSE TO FOLLOW all those man-made doctrines, creeds, traditions, rituals, and gestures and elaborate art works and statue bowing and endless repentance and bead counting and repetitive prayers and praying to saints, teachings in Direct conflict with Scripture and on and on and on and on that are NOT Biblical Doctrinal Teachings, nor Instructions in righteousness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No it say the apostles are to preach to the end or second coming and to the ends of the earth

the church is eternal and does not change as her founder is eternal

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

That is true, but that has 0 to do with the apostles and apostolic succession.

 

[theefaith]

I wanted to come back to this and give you something which I think you’ll find helpful. It doesn’t make much of an impression on Protestants but it should on Catholics.

“...it’s own conception of the Trinity was looked upon by the Fathers themselves as a combination of Jewish monotheism and pagan polytheism, except that to them this combination was a good combination; in fact, it was to them an ideal combination of what is best in Jewish monotheism and of what is best in pagan polytheism, and consequently they gloried in it and pointed to it as evidence of the truth of their belief. We have on this the testimony of Gregory of Nyssa - one of the great figures in the history of the philosophic formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity - and his words are repeated by John of Damascus - the last of the Church Fathers.

The Christian conception of God, argues Gregory of Nyssa, is neither the polytheism of the Greeks nor the monotheism of the Jews and consequently it must be true, for ’the truth passes in the mean between these two conceptions, destroying each heresy, and yet, accepting what is useful to it from each. The Jewish dogma is destroyed by the acceptance of the Word and by the belief in the Spirit, while the polytheistic error of the Greek school is made to vanish by the unity of the nature abrogating this imagination of plurality.’”

(Henry Austryn Wolfson, The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Vol. I, pp. 362-363, Second Edition, Revised)

Bold is mine.

Gregory of Nyssa, a key figure in the post-biblical formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity - a giant of the trinitarian faith in Roman Catholicism - calls it plain.

His comment about “accepting what is useful from Jewish monotheism and the polytheism of the Greeks” should raise trinitarian eyebrows, especially Protestant eyebrows; but it will raise few.

What’s more important to me, however, is his comment about “destroying the heresy of Jewish monotheism; destroying the Jewish dogma.”

He’s absolutely right. It does.

So what?

Jesus of Nazareth is a Jewish monotheist.

The doctrine of the Trinity, Gregory of Nyssa is pleased to candidly tell us, destroys the dogma, the heresy, of the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism.

The Church slowly turned away from the monotheism of the head of the Church.

At his direction, in post-biblical times, through apostolic succession, we’re told we must believe. I don’t.

apostolic succession is biblical
Apostolic tradition or the teaching authority of Christ
Christ in his church extends his Ministry thru his apostles to all men and times
The rule of faith for Christians is not the “Bible alone” but God and His revelation!
Scripture reference upon request

I think the doctor here is saying there are two parts to this doctrine

The Jews got it right in the fact there is only one God, but wrong or incomplete revelation in regards to the persons

the others are wrong on more than one God but right that there is more than one person

 

[theefaith]

Have you ever noticed my avatar? Do you know the story behind it?

The man in the water is a trinitarian.* The man reaching out to rescue him is Dirk Willems, an Anabaptist.

Willems’ story is told in Martyr’s Mirror or The Bloody Theater. I’m linking the entry in Wikipedia that summarizes it.

Dirk Willems - Wikipedia

Like Willems, I reject infant baptism. I was rebaptized after I stopped believing in the Trinity.

(There is only one baptism, no re-baptism)
(Anabaptists or adult only believers baptism)
(Makes baptism meaningless)

I don’t know if Willems was a trinitarian or not. He probably was, the majority of Anabaptists - then as now, were - but some were unitarians.

You and I are in a similar situation. Willems had escaped from prison (he was imprisoned merely because he was an Anabaptist) and the trinitarian prison guard who was chasing after him fell through the ice. Willems saw what happened to his pursuer, turned back, and rescued the drowning guard.

The grateful guard asked for Willems to be released.

(Christian charity)

No good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes. Willems could have gotten away but out of love for his enemy he abandoned the effort. He was recaptured, put back in prison, tortured? and killed - burned at the “steak” on May 16, 1569 - for his faith.
(For his heresy anyway)

I wonder. Knowing what you know about Willems / me, would you ask for Willems / my release or would you quietly go along with my imprisonment, torture and execution out of obedience to the Roman Catholic Church?

* I had to go back and check the Martyr’s Mirror entry (there’s a link to it in the Wikipedia entry) to check on whether the guard was a Protestant or Roman Catholic. The story in Martyr’s Mirror strongly implies the guard was Roman Catholic.

(only Catholics are martyrs)
(I love reading the stories of the martyrs of the faith, YouTube also)
(The church has a duty to Teach the truth and condemn all error! The two edge sword)
(The state executes justice!)

 

[theefaith]

Short answer. Yes.

Long answer.

Is one God in one million persons an impossibility?

I ask because of an experience I had on an Internet forum with a trinitarian who said that it is possible, since “all things are possible with God”. His position is that we know of three for certain, but there could be more that we don’t know about yet.

I don’t know about you but, as an ex-trinitarian, I found that pretty shocking. I defended historical orthodox trinitarianism, as I do whenever a trinitarian strays from it.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that you would have found what the trinitarian believed, said and insisted upon as pretty shocking too. A complete impossibility?

I’m a Jewish monotheist. When you ask if I think God in three persons is an impossibility, my reaction is the same as it was when the trinitarian told me God could be one million persons. Why? Because that’s not what I see Jesus believing and teaching about his God, the one God.

how can there be billions of persons and one human nature?

so there persons and one divine nature is possible

the problem as I see it is Jesus divine? Eternal? And capable of receiving worship???

 

[theefaith]

I’m under the new covenant, despite trinitarian insistence to the contrary.

that’s cos the members of the new covenant are members of Christ united to God and each other “communion of saints” by faith and baptism!

so they must all have the same faith and the same baptism!

 

[theefaith]

The head of the Church is the Messiah. The head of the Messiah is God. Otherwise, I’m in agreement with your setup.



I’m not in agreement with your conclusion. Paul spoke in Acts 29 of savage wolves which would, and even were in his day, which would come into the church, not sparing the flock. In Matthew 24 Jesus warns about false Messiah’s and false prophets working miracles in order to deceive the sheep.

I don’t expect you to believe it but I believe that has been going on since the middle of the 1st century.

I’ve quoted one of your scholars, Father Fortman, who acknowledged that the original apostles themselves weren’t trinitarians. The doctrine of the Trinity wasn’t their doctrine. The Church developed it over a time span of several centuries.

You’ll recall, I think, the quotes I provided from the Protestant scholar, Dr. Brown. He asked the crucial question: was the post-biblical development of the doctrine of the Trinity legitimate? He was certain that it was, as I’m confident you are.

I’m sure you’re getting tired of hearing it, and I know that you know it, but I’m a Jewish monotheist. As such, I don’t believe it was a legitimate development.

The Messiah has a God, a God whom he says is his God and my God; his God wasn’t, isn’t and never will be the Trinity. That is why I say that what the Church did - see again the quote I provided from Gregory of Nyssa in post #114 - isn’t legitimate.

Again, I want to say that I don’t expect you to say it wasn’t legitimate. I say all of this so you will understand not only what I believe but why I believe it.

matt 28:19 Christ sent his apostles to teach all men, Jn 16:13 without error having His authority Jn 20:21

Do men have authority to forgive sins committed against God?

 

[theefaith]

That is true, but that has 0 to do with the apostles and apostolic succession.

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1


Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15

 

[theefaith]

That is true, but that has 0 to do with the apostles and apostolic succession.

acts 1:15-26 apostolic succession

even the successors of Moses Matt 23 had to be obeyed!

 

[Matthias]

@theefaith this might sound strange

apostolic succession is biblical
Apostolic tradition or the teaching authority of Christ
Christ in his church extends his Ministry thru his apostles to all men and times
The rule of faith for Christians is not the “Bible alone” but God and His revelation!
Scripture reference upon request

I think the doctor here is saying there are two parts to this doctrine

The Jews got it right in the fact there is only one God, but wrong or incomplete revelation in regards to the persons

the others are wrong on more than one God but right that there is more than one person

Jesus is a Jew, not a Roman Catholic. He had / has it right. The faith was once and for all delivered to the saints in the 1st century. Deviating from it is a serious matter.

 

[Matthias]

(only Catholics are martyrs)

I think your definition is too limited. I don’t have any problem with the thought that persons of your faith have been martyred but neither do I have any problem with the thought the persons of other faiths have been martyred.

Persons of my faith have been martyred, whether they are recognized and acknowledged by other faiths or not.

(I love reading the stories of the martyrs of the faith, YouTube also)

The stories of martyrs are fascinating.

(The church has a duty to Teach the truth and condemn all error! The two edge sword)

The Church is doing it’s duty, despite the persecution it suffers and endures.

(The state executes justice!)

The state has no legitimate reason to persecute, torture and kill people because of their faith. Those in service to the state who do so will be held accountable.

 

[Matthias]

how can there be billions of persons and one human nature?

How can there be what is?

I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking.

so there persons and one divine nature is possible

Divine nature is more than possible.

the problem as I see it is Jesus divine?

I think you mean by that, is Jesus deity. My answer is no.

Eternal?

My answer is no. The origin of Jesus is in the womb of the his mother.

And capable of receiving worship???

My answer is yes.

 

[Matthias]

that’s cos the members of the new covenant are members of Christ united to God and each other “communion of saints” by faith and baptism!

so they must all have the same faith and the same baptism!

People make their choices and reap what they sow.

That the RCC has excluded me is of no concern to me. Is it your understanding that it excludes non-Catholic trinitarians? Though they have rebelled against the RCC and many of its believes and practices, they have, at least theoretically, retained the doctrine of the Trinity, courtesy of RCC theologians.

I’m part of the body of Messiah united to the one God and other members of the body by faith and baptism. I’m not trinitarian, and neither is the Messiah, the original apostles, the earliest Christians and Christians through the ages who have come to and remained in the faith, persevering to the end.

 

[Matthias]

matt 28:19 Christ sent his apostles to teach all men, Jn 16:13 without error having His authority Jn 20:21

Agreed.

Do men have authority to forgive sins committed against God?

When someone sins against my God they need to repent. Upon repenting they will be forgiven.

 

[theefaith]

@theefaith this might sound strange


Jesus is a Jew, not a Roman Catholic. He had / has it right. The faith was once and for all delivered to the saints in the 1st century. Deviating from it is a serious matter.

He is Roman Catholic the head of the church his body!

as I said the church always believes and teaches the same doctrine

 

[theefaith]

I think your definition is too limited. I don’t have any problem with the thought that persons of your faith have been martyred but neither do I have any problem with the thought the persons of other faiths have been martyred.

Persons of my faith have been martyred, whether they are recognized and acknowledged by other faiths or not.



The stories of martyrs are fascinating.



The Church is doing it’s duty, despite the persecution it suffers and endures.



The state has no legitimate reason to persecute, torture and kill people because of their faith. Those in service to the state who do so will be held accountable.

Is treason not punishable by death?
The state executes this justice, the good ole USA executed two Jews in the 50’s convicted of communist treason?