Eternal salvation and 'the church'

[360watt]

It's incredibly popular..

The teaching that all redeemed, every believer is 'the church'

But where is that in scripture?

Most of you all will have being converted .. and that meaning you join the body of Christ, 'the church'. Have you really done an honest study of this?

I believe eternal salvation and joining 'the church' are very different things. That 'the church' is the institution of the local, saved and baptised unit of believers. The one down the road.

Not that they have to have a building over their head.. but the local community of saved, baptised believers covenanted together to carry out the great commission and commandment, with Jesus as the Head.

So proof texts:

Matthew 16:18.... Jesus describes building His church. This can't be a church of all redeemed..'universal, invisible' because in Matthew 18:20 Jesus describes the process for resolving sin issues in a church-- local and visible. Jesus isn't going to define 'the church' one way.. and then describe it differently the next time He mentions it.

So we get to Acts-- and there is 'the church' that gets added to with souls.

By context ... this is the church AT Jerusalem. Paul persecuted 'the church' ... that was none other than the church at Jerusalem. Local and visible... not 'universal, invisible'. So people being added to 'the church' is already converted people joining the church at Jerusalem for membership.

Church meaning- ecclessia-- 'congregation, assembly'

Then we go to Corinth. Chapter 12 describes the body of Christ. Paul calls Corinth.. the body of Christ. Local and visible.. not universal, invisible.

The wording to describe the body of Christ here is of a unified assembly. All the language is of togetherness and connectedness. It's describing the local church at Corinth. The word 'the' in front of body of Christ.. is also an addition. In the Greek there is no definite article in front of it.. so it could be 'a' body of Christ.

Ephesians has a church of all redeemed.. but that is not a present reality. It's the future outlook when all believers will be one church in the New Jerusalem. Still local and visible... not universal, invisible. The New Jerusalem church will be assembled.. even though absolutely huge.

So-- the challenge to you all.. is do an in-depth study of what the body of Christ, the church is. Is a universal, invisible church of all redeemed.. really biblical?

Have a study also of the Family of God. The Family IS all redeemed.. and is inside the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is the widest entity.. encompassing all God owns. The Family is inside this. The body of Christ.. the local church.. is inside the Family.

 

[Davy]

It's incredibly popular..

The teaching that all redeemed, every believer is 'the church'

But where is that in scripture?

Most of you all will have being converted .. and that meaning you join the body of Christ, 'the church'. Have you really done an honest study of this?

I believe eternal salvation and joining 'the church' are very different things. That 'the church' is the institution of the local, saved and baptised unit of believers. The one down the road.

Not that they have to have a building over their head.. but the local community of saved, baptised believers covenanted together to carry out the great commission and commandment, with Jesus as the Head.

So proof texts:

Matthew 16:18.... Jesus describes building His church. This can't be a church of all redeemed..'universal, invisible' because in Matthew 18:20 Jesus describes the process for resolving sin issues in a church-- local and visible. Jesus isn't going to define 'the church' one way.. and then describe it differently the next time He mentions it.

So we get to Acts-- and there is 'the church' that gets added to with souls.

By context ... this is the church AT Jerusalem. Paul persecuted 'the church' ... that was none other than the church at Jerusalem. Local and visible... not 'universal, invisible'. So people being added to 'the church' is already converted people joining the church at Jerusalem for membership.

Church meaning- ecclessia-- 'congregation, assembly'

Then we go to Corinth. Chapter 12 describes the body of Christ. Paul calls Corinth.. the body of Christ. Local and visible.. not universal, invisible.

The wording to describe the body of Christ here is of a unified assembly. All the language is of togetherness and connectedness. It's describing the local church at Corinth. The word 'the' in front of body of Christ.. is also an addition. In the Greek there is no definite article in front of it.. so it could be 'a' body of Christ.

Ephesians has a church of all redeemed.. but that is not a present reality. It's the future outlook when all believers will be one church in the New Jerusalem. Still local and visible... not universal, invisible. The New Jerusalem church will be assembled.. even though absolutely huge.

So-- the challenge to you all.. is do an in-depth study of what the body of Christ, the church is. Is a universal, invisible church of all redeemed.. really biblical?

Have a study also of the Family of God. The Family IS all redeemed.. and is inside the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is the widest entity.. encompassing all God owns. The Family is inside this. The body of Christ.. the local church.. is inside the Family.

The idea of the 'church' in God's Word is about a congregation of believers, and since Jesus Christ died on the cross and was raised, it is now The New Covenant Church.

This Church was further defined... by Apostle Paul in places like Ephesians 2 with the concept of the spiritual temple...

Eph 2:5-6
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
KJV

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

1 Cor 3:16
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
KJV

Thus the idea of the 'church' does NOT simply mean a building structure of this earthly world. It is a building in The Spirit through each believer on Christ Jesus. This is the TRUE CHURCH, and no man nor angel can corrupt it!

 

[360watt]

The idea of the 'church' in God's Word is about a congregation of believers, and since Jesus Christ died on the cross and was raised, it is now The New Covenant Church.

This Church was further defined... by Apostle Paul in places like Ephesians 2 with the concept of the spiritual temple...

Eph 2:5-6
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
KJV

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

1 Cor 3:16
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
KJV

Thus the idea of the 'church' does NOT simply mean a building structure of this earthly world. It is a building in The Spirit through each believer on Christ Jesus. This is the TRUE CHURCH, and no man nor angel can corrupt it!

The local church isn't a building. Its the local community of saved baptised believers.

 

[Davy]

The local church isn't a building. Its the local community of saved baptised believers.

No such thing as a 'local' church that is NOT ALSO involving a Church building, a geographic location. You are attempting to create non-existing phrases that do not exist in God's written Word.

 

[360watt]

No such thing as a 'local' church that is NOT ALSO involving a Church building, a geographic location. You are attempting to create non-existing phrases that do not exist in God's written Word.

There is always a geographical location for an assembly of saved baptised believers. But they don't have to have a building. Open air churches are still churches.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Actually, there are:​

'Three' Churches In Scripture...​

 

[Davy]

There is always a geographical location for an assembly of saved baptised believers. But they don't have to have a building. Open air churches are still churches.

Geographic areas of where believers on Christ Jesus live is one thing.

Christ's Church which is of The Spirit is irregardless of geographic location.

So it's silly to try and combine the two into one thing. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit, like Jesus said in John 3.

 

[ElieG12]

Christendom can only offer a false, ambiguous and incomplete idea of what the word "church" might mean.

Its religious leaders and theologians cannot conceive of the Church described in the NT because in the group of what they call "Christians" there is not what the Bible describes as the conditions sine qua non for the true church of Christ, so they have to reinvent the meaning of that term and make it like a "virtual/ideal" community, when it is obvious that it requires to be an organized community.

Eph. 4:4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[Robert Gwin]

It's incredibly popular..

The teaching that all redeemed, every believer is 'the church'

But where is that in scripture?

Most of you all will have being converted .. and that meaning you join the body of Christ, 'the church'. Have you really done an honest study of this?

I believe eternal salvation and joining 'the church' are very different things. That 'the church' is the institution of the local, saved and baptised unit of believers. The one down the road.

Not that they have to have a building over their head.. but the local community of saved, baptised believers covenanted together to carry out the great commission and commandment, with Jesus as the Head.

So proof texts:

Matthew 16:18.... Jesus describes building His church. This can't be a church of all redeemed..'universal, invisible' because in Matthew 18:20 Jesus describes the process for resolving sin issues in a church-- local and visible. Jesus isn't going to define 'the church' one way.. and then describe it differently the next time He mentions it.

So we get to Acts-- and there is 'the church' that gets added to with souls.

By context ... this is the church AT Jerusalem. Paul persecuted 'the church' ... that was none other than the church at Jerusalem. Local and visible... not 'universal, invisible'. So people being added to 'the church' is already converted people joining the church at Jerusalem for membership.

Church meaning- ecclessia-- 'congregation, assembly'

Then we go to Corinth. Chapter 12 describes the body of Christ. Paul calls Corinth.. the body of Christ. Local and visible.. not universal, invisible.

The wording to describe the body of Christ here is of a unified assembly. All the language is of togetherness and connectedness. It's describing the local church at Corinth. The word 'the' in front of body of Christ.. is also an addition. In the Greek there is no definite article in front of it.. so it could be 'a' body of Christ.

Ephesians has a church of all redeemed.. but that is not a present reality. It's the future outlook when all believers will be one church in the New Jerusalem. Still local and visible... not universal, invisible. The New Jerusalem church will be assembled.. even though absolutely huge.

So-- the challenge to you all.. is do an in-depth study of what the body of Christ, the church is. Is a universal, invisible church of all redeemed.. really biblical?

Have a study also of the Family of God. The Family IS all redeemed.. and is inside the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is the widest entity.. encompassing all God owns. The Family is inside this. The body of Christ.. the local church.. is inside the Family.

The term church is a bit misunderstood Hi-watt. You correctly stated it is the congregation of God, and of course it is made up of people, it is those people that is the church, not any building. 2 or three gathered in Jesus' name constitutes a church. Perhaps the easiest way to distinguish that the church means the believers is found at Philemon 2: and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house

 

[ElieG12]

"Church" is about a congregation or local community; it may include two or more individuals

... but when talking about the whole "Church" the term adquire a deeper significance and become a synonym for the "body of Christ" composed of himself as the head and his anointed brethren as joined parts of that body.

The ideal/virtual community that Christendom refers to (and they say is based in the communion with the spirit of God) does not make up a united body, but rather the divided house that Jesus speaks of here:

Matt. 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. (Luke 11:17)

Obviously that ficticional ideal church is not based on the spirit of God, which can't produce anything that is broken and approaching its end.

 

[360watt]

"Church" is about a congregation or local community; it may include two or more individuals

... but when talking about the whole "Church" the term adquire a deeper significance and become a synonym for the "body of Christ" composed of himself as the head and his anointed brethren as joined parts of that body.

The ideal/virtual community that Christendom refers to (and they say is based in the communion with the spirit of God) does not make up a united body, but rather the divided house that Jesus speaks of here:

Matt. 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. (Luke 11:17)

Obviously that ficticional ideal church is not based on the spirit of God, which can't produce anything that is broken and approaching its end.

That is the thing.. 'The church' is an assembly/congregation.

All redeemed.. at this time don't meet as one assembly. Not yet...not until the New Jerusalem is set.

So ... 'The church' now then.. is a local and visible assembly of saved, baptized believers. Covenanted together to carry out the great commission and commandment.

Further texts to support this:

The disciples did all the work of a NT church.

They had the Lords Supper. They assembled regularly.
They had Jesus as the Head.
They had church roles. Such as Peter and John being primary leaders and Judas having the finances. (Although I don't believe Judas became converted, but God had a purpose for Him)

They had discipleship

They had church discipline.. as Jesus was saying in Mathew 18.

They were a local NT church before Pentecost and got a place to meet in at Jerusalem.

 

[360watt]

Christendom can only offer a false, ambiguous and incomplete idea of what the word "church" might mean.

Its religious leaders and theologians cannot conceive of the Church described in the NT because in the group of what they call "Christians" there is not what the Bible describes as the conditions sine qua non for the true church of Christ, so they have to reinvent the meaning of that term and make it like a "virtual/ideal" community, when it is obvious that it requires to be an organized community.

Eph. 4:4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.

The one body in Ephesians is also describing the unit of the local body.. rather than all redeemed.

It's using the term like we would use 'the horse'

'The horse is a magnificent animal'

That's singular standing for all horses. Not one in particular, but about the actual horse.

So it is with 'the church' and 'the body'

Singular standing for all churches.

Got a problem with there being multiple bodies of Christ?

Well the Holy Spirit indwells every believer. Is that millions and millions of Holy Spirit's? No.

So Jesus being one in Himself with many congregations, bodies of believers that are His.

 

[360watt]

Geographic areas of where believers on Christ Jesus live is one thing.

Christ's Church which is of The Spirit is irregardless of geographic location.

So it's silly to try and combine the two into one thing. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit, like Jesus said in John 3.

Okay, so you have joining 'the church' at salvation. John 3.. being receiving eternal life.. and that being joining the 'body of Christ'

The problem with this.. is 'the church' is 'the body of Christ'.. so it is defined one way.

'The church'.. is an ecclessia.. which is a local and visible congregation. That is the way the word was used in early church times. It didn't take on any kind of 'universal, invisible' meaning until later.

The idea of a 'universal, invisible' church was foreign to the early christians. A church always had locality.

What I can agree with you on though.. is there is an entity that a believer joins when they believed in Jesus.. and that is the Family of God. That contains all redeemed.

So.. I think you are calling the body of Christ.. the Family of God. Most christians do this. But they are actually different entities. The body.. is local and visible.. the Family of God is scattered everywhere and does not need to assemble to be a Family.

Again.. the body of Christ is defined in 1 Corinthians 12.. and it is completely describing something local and visible.

Paul even calls the church AT Corinth.. 'the body of Christ'

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's incredibly popular..

The teaching that all redeemed, every believer is 'the church'

But where is that in scripture?

Most of you all will have being converted .. and that meaning you join the body of Christ, 'the church'. Have you really done an honest study of this?

I believe eternal salvation and joining 'the church' are very different things. That 'the church' is the institution of the local, saved and baptised unit of believers. The one down the road.

Not that they have to have a building over their head.. but the local community of saved, baptised believers covenanted together to carry out the great commission and commandment, with Jesus as the Head.

So proof texts:

Matthew 16:18.... Jesus describes building His church. This can't be a church of all redeemed..'universal, invisible' because in Matthew 18:20 Jesus describes the process for resolving sin issues in a church-- local and visible. Jesus isn't going to define 'the church' one way.. and then describe it differently the next time He mentions it.

So we get to Acts-- and there is 'the church' that gets added to with souls.

By context ... this is the church AT Jerusalem. Paul persecuted 'the church' ... that was none other than the church at Jerusalem. Local and visible... not 'universal, invisible'. So people being added to 'the church' is already converted people joining the church at Jerusalem for membership.

Church meaning- ecclessia-- 'congregation, assembly'

Then we go to Corinth. Chapter 12 describes the body of Christ. Paul calls Corinth.. the body of Christ. Local and visible.. not universal, invisible.

The wording to describe the body of Christ here is of a unified assembly. All the language is of togetherness and connectedness. It's describing the local church at Corinth. The word 'the' in front of body of Christ.. is also an addition. In the Greek there is no definite article in front of it.. so it could be 'a' body of Christ.

Ephesians has a church of all redeemed.. but that is not a present reality. It's the future outlook when all believers will be one church in the New Jerusalem. Still local and visible... not universal, invisible. The New Jerusalem church will be assembled.. even though absolutely huge.

So-- the challenge to you all.. is do an in-depth study of what the body of Christ, the church is. Is a universal, invisible church of all redeemed.. really biblical?

Have a study also of the Family of God. The Family IS all redeemed.. and is inside the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is the widest entity.. encompassing all God owns. The Family is inside this. The body of Christ.. the local church.. is inside the Family.

Well being saved or eternal security is one thing and being a member of teh church is another!

The moment we are saved which is the moment we are given eternal security, we become members of the body of Christ. Salvation produces member ship but it is not membership.

 

[360watt]

Well being saved or eternal security is one thing and being a member of teh church is another!

The moment we are saved which is the moment we are given eternal security, we become members of the body of Christ. Salvation produces member ship but it is not membership.

I agree with eternal security.. and being given that at salvation. But where in the bible is a body of Christ of all redeemed?

The body of Christ is the church. The church-- is defined as an ecclessia-- a local and visible congregation/assembly. Called out from their homes.. to an assembly. That was the use of the word in the early church times.

So that is not an entity of all redeemed. It's a entity seperate from receiving eternal salvation.. that someone joins after baptism in water. A local New Testament church.

From Arthur Pink:

"1. A New Testament church is a local body of believers. Much confusion has been caused by the employment of adjectives which are not to be met with in the N.T. Were you to ask some Christians, To what church do you belong? they would answer, The great invisible church of Christ-a church which is as intangible as it is invisible. How many recite the so-called Apostles’ Creed, “I believe in the holy catholic Church,” which most certainly was not an article in the Apostles’ “creed.” Others speak of “the Church militant” and “the Church triumphant,” but neither are these terms found in Scripture, and to employ them is only to create difficulty and confusion."

From: "The Churches of God" (1 Thess 2:14)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree with eternal security.. and being given that at salvation. But where in the bible is a body of Christ of all redeemed?

The body of Christ is the church. The church-- is defined as an ecclessia-- a local and visible congregation/assembly. Called out from their homes.. to an assembly. That was the use of the word in the early church times.

So that is not an entity of all redeemed. It's a entity seperate from receiving eternal salvation.. that someone joins after baptism in water. A local New Testament church.

From Arthur Pink:

"1. A New Testament church is a local body of believers. Much confusion has been caused by the employment of adjectives which are not to be met with in the N.T. Were you to ask some Christians, To what church do you belong? they would answer, The great invisible church of Christ-a church which is as intangible as it is invisible. How many recite the so-called Apostles’ Creed, “I believe in the holy catholic Church,” which most certainly was not an article in the Apostles’ “creed.” Others speak of “the Church militant” and “the Church triumphant,” but neither are these terms found in Scripture, and to employ them is only to create difficulty and confusion."

From: "The Churches of God" (1 Thess 2:14)

Well it depends on which aspect of "church" you are using. If by church you mean the body of Christ- it is all redeemed.

If by church you simply mean an assembly- no it is not all redeemed.

If by church you mean all saints since pentecost- it is all redeemed.

There are several definitions of church and which one is being referred to is key.

Church as just an assembly is the generic term.

Church as the body of Jesus is the spiritual term used in Scripture.

 

[360watt]

Well it depends on which aspect of "church" you are using. If by church you mean the body of Christ- it is all redeemed.

If by church you simply mean an assembly- no it is not all redeemed.

If by church you mean all saints since pentecost- it is all redeemed.

There are several definitions of church and which one is being referred to is key.

Church as just an assembly is the generic term.

Church as the body of Jesus is the spiritual term used in Scripture.

Yes, the term 'body of Christ' is in scripture. But scripture defines this as 'the church'

'The church' is the ecclessia.. a called out assembly .. from their homes.. to that assembly.

Its defined one way.

Its always local and visible.

1 Corinthians 12.. has a local and visible body of Christ.

All redeemed isn't one church yet. We will be.. but it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Davy]

Okay, so you have joining 'the church' at salvation. John 3.. being receiving eternal life.. and that being joining the 'body of Christ'

The problem with this.. is 'the church' is 'the body of Christ'.. so it is defined one way.

'The church'.. is an ecclessia.. which is a local and visible congregation. That is the way the word was used in early church times. It didn't take on any kind of 'universal, invisible' meaning until later.

The idea of a 'universal, invisible' church was foreign to the early christians. A church always had locality.

What I can agree with you on though.. is there is an entity that a believer joins when they believed in Jesus.. and that is the Family of God. That contains all redeemed.

So.. I think you are calling the body of Christ.. the Family of God. Most christians do this. But they are actually different entities. The body.. is local and visible.. the Family of God is scattered everywhere and does not need to assemble to be a Family.

Again.. the body of Christ is defined in 1 Corinthians 12.. and it is completely describing something local and visible.

Paul even calls the church AT Corinth.. 'the body of Christ'

All that is man's secular philosophy.

The True Church is of The Spirit, and NOT of this world.

Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
KJV

 

[360watt]

All that is man's secular philosophy.

The True Church is of The Spirit, and NOT of this world.

Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
KJV

Thanks for the reply. You are referring to Romans 8:9, but this doesn't talk about the church. The subject of this is the state of a believer in the Spirit.

A primary verse many use is 1 Corinthians 12:13. With Greek or Jew being baptised into one body. Including Paul.

The issue with doing that with 1 Corinthians 12:13 is that every other reference to church in the chapter is of a local and visible assembly.

The body described has all the language of locality and visibility and togetherness. Paul even calls the church at Corinth 'the body of Christ'

So then the weight of evidence is that the 1 Corinthians 12:13 is referring to baptism in water, after salvation, as a pre requisite to joining a local church.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, the term 'body of Christ' is in scripture. But scripture defines this as 'the church'

'The church' is the ecclessia.. a called out assembly .. from their homes.. to that assembly.

Its defined one way.

Its always local and visible.

1 Corinthians 12.. has a local and visible body of Christ.

All redeemed isn't one church yet. We will be.. but it hasn't happened yet.

Well there is the visible church which comprises both believer and unbeliever. then there is the invisible church which is just composed of believers.


Teh body of christ is composed of just believers.