Eternal salvation and 'the church'

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Davy

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Gnostics don't believe Jesus is God.
Orthodox Jews that follow Judaism don't believe Jesus of Nazareth is God either.

Even some so-called Christian organizations don't believe Jesus is God. So you really have not proven anything by that.

They elevate themselves with their own knowledge. Probably think they are their own God. I am not sure.

How do you interpret the bible?

By asking questions like who is talking to whom? What is the subject? What is the occasion? What is the time and place?

That's all I'm trying to do.

The bible interprets itself.
Your questions in your post #49 are from lack of Bible study. If you would simply READ the ACTS 2 Scripture as written, you SHOULD understand that was Pentecost, a holy day for the Old Testament children of Israel, called the 'feast of harvest'. That's why the Jews in Acts 2 were gathered there. It did NOT mean that was a Church service going on there! READ ALL YOUR BIBLE.
 

360watt

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Orthodox Jews that follow Judaism don't believe Jesus of Nazareth is God either.

Even some so-called Christian organizations don't believe Jesus is God. So you really have not proven anything by that.


Your questions in your post #49 are from lack of Bible study. If you would simply READ the ACTS 2 Scripture as written, you SHOULD understand that was Pentecost, a holy day for the Old Testament children of Israel, called the 'feast of harvest'. That's why the Jews in Acts 2 were gathered there. It did NOT mean that was a Church service going on there! READ ALL YOUR BIBLE.

Jesus and His disciples-- the first church. They gathered at Jerusalem. The likes of Peter became leader at the church at Jerusalem.

The Jews that received the Word here were added to this church.
 

Davy

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Jesus and His disciples-- the first church. They gathered at Jerusalem. The likes of Peter became leader at the church at Jerusalem.

The Jews that received the Word here were added to this church.
Yes, but those Jews out of all nations there did not represent Christ's Church, otherwise like I said, Peter would not have preached The Gospel to them telling them to convert to Christ.
 

ElieG12

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In this psychological desire of "pertaining to a church" that is really led by Jesus, individuals of all kinds of beliefs and styles of life try to deceive their own mind by telling themselves that they themselves are part of that church ... even some who don't even have true faith and hardly consider themselves "Biblicalists."

Do you think that people can decide for themselves if they are truly part of the true church that is the body of Christ?
 

360watt

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In this psychological desire of "pertaining to a church" that is really led by Jesus, individuals of all kinds of beliefs and styles of life try to deceive their own mind by telling themselves that they themselves are part of that church ... even some who don't even have true faith and hardly consider themselves "Biblicalists."

Do you think that people can decide for themselves if they are truly part of the true church that is the body of Christ?

That's got to be objective. Looking at faithful churches in the NT and seeing if their church believes as they do.
 

ElieG12

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That's got to be objective. Looking at faithful churches in the NT and seeing if their church believes as they do.
Is it realistic for an "independent Christian" to consider himself part of a church that is made up of people united in a common identity?
 

Adam

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The Church of God is all mankind, for it is written:

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
 

ElieG12

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I won't talk to machines, so to anyone on charge: control your bots. Thanks. :Thumbsup:
 

360watt

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Is it realistic for an "independent Christian" to consider himself part of a church that is made up of people united in a common identity?

The beliefs of the NT churches can be found out thru Jesus ' teachings and Paul's admonishments and rebukes to the churches. That's realistic
 

Jim B

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The Church of God is all mankind, for it is written:

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The church is not all mankind. The church is only the body of Christ, those people who have accepted Him as their Savior.
 

Jim B

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Is it realistic for an "independent Christian" to consider himself part of a church that is made up of people united in a common identity?
Yes. The church is the body of Christ, all Christians.
 

ElieG12

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The beliefs of the NT churches can be found out thru Jesus ' teachings and Paul's admonishments and rebukes to the churches. That's realistic
I agree.

And to those who know the characteristics that define the true church or body of Christ, do not scape the fact that the baptisms, meetings, reinstatement of principles, exhortations and censures as well as organized preaching and other aspects that characterize that church can be done only and exclusively if you are part of a globally organized community.

So: Is it realistic for an "independent Christian" to consider himself part of a church that is made up of people united in a common identity? YES or NOT?
 

Adam

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The church is not all mankind. The church is only the body of Christ, those people who have accepted Him as their Savior.
IE everyone

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
 

liafailrock

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It's incredibly popular..

The teaching that all redeemed, every believer is 'the church'

But where is that in scripture?

Most of you all will have being converted .. and that meaning you join the body of Christ, 'the church'. Have you really done an honest study of this?

I believe eternal salvation and joining 'the church' are very different things. That 'the church' is the institution of the local, saved and baptised unit of believers. The one down the road.

Not that they have to have a building over their head.. but the local community of saved, baptised believers covenanted together to carry out the great commission and commandment, with Jesus as the Head.

So proof texts:

Matthew 16:18.... Jesus describes building His church. This can't be a church of all redeemed..'universal, invisible' because in Matthew 18:20 Jesus describes the process for resolving sin issues in a church-- local and visible. Jesus isn't going to define 'the church' one way.. and then describe it differently the next time He mentions it.

So we get to Acts-- and there is 'the church' that gets added to with souls.

By context ... this is the church AT Jerusalem. Paul persecuted 'the church' ... that was none other than the church at Jerusalem. Local and visible... not 'universal, invisible'. So people being added to 'the church' is already converted people joining the church at Jerusalem for membership.

Church meaning- ecclessia-- 'congregation, assembly'

Then we go to Corinth. Chapter 12 describes the body of Christ. Paul calls Corinth.. the body of Christ. Local and visible.. not universal, invisible.

The wording to describe the body of Christ here is of a unified assembly. All the language is of togetherness and connectedness. It's describing the local church at Corinth. The word 'the' in front of body of Christ.. is also an addition. In the Greek there is no definite article in front of it.. so it could be 'a' body of Christ.

Ephesians has a church of all redeemed.. but that is not a present reality. It's the future outlook when all believers will be one church in the New Jerusalem. Still local and visible... not universal, invisible. The New Jerusalem church will be assembled.. even though absolutely huge.

So-- the challenge to you all.. is do an in-depth study of what the body of Christ, the church is. Is a universal, invisible church of all redeemed.. really biblical?

Have a study also of the Family of God. The Family IS all redeemed.. and is inside the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is the widest entity.. encompassing all God owns. The Family is inside this. The body of Christ.. the local church.. is inside the Family.
Didn't the term "invisible" church vs "visible" come from a reformation idea? You have people in a Congregation because they are really, truly believers in Christ and then you have people there because Christianity to some extent was part of the culture, so it was the respectable thing to do. Not the least of which are because the parents are obeying the Biblical command to train a child in the way they are to go so the kids down through the generations become part of the "visible" church but that's generations and not necessarily regenerations. Our Lord used the parable of weeds such as tares with the wheat type parables all the time: no congregation is pure from weeds. So to distinguish true believers from false ones, people realized that they themselves do not know thus came up with the visible church that we see here, and the "God-only-knows" true believers which are "invisible" in a sense. But I agree with you 110% that since we are in the flesh yet that there is a physical meeting place for believers, and the body of Christ is collectively called the Church of Jesus Christ; and the epistles deal extensively with training believers how to recognize false ones.
 

ElieG12

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(...) Our Lord used the parable of weeds such as tares with the wheat type parables all the time: no congregation is pure from weeds. (...)
Matt. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

IT IS NOT the wheat that is tied up in bundles ... it is the weed. Those bundles are not the "churches" of the Church.

IT IS the wheat that is gathered into the storehouse of Jesus... and THIS IS the real Church.

tTe true church is being weeded in our time:

Matt. 13:37 (...) “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.
 

360watt

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I agree.

And to those who know the characteristics that define the true church or body of Christ, do not scape the fact that the baptisms, meetings, reinstatement of principles, exhortations and censures as well as organized preaching and other aspects that characterize that church can be done only and exclusively if you are part of a globally organized community.

So: Is it realistic for an "independent Christian" to consider himself part of a church that is made up of people united in a common identity? YES or NOT?
The whole global every believer entity.. that isn't the body of Christ. That's part of the Family of God. So an independent Christian is part of the Family.. not part of a body of Christ till they join a biblical church.
 

360watt

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Didn't the term "invisible" church vs "visible" come from a reformation idea? You have people in a Congregation because they are really, truly believers in Christ and then you have people there because Christianity to some extent was part of the culture, so it was the respectable thing to do. Not the least of which are because the parents are obeying the Biblical command to train a child in the way they are to go so the kids down through the generations become part of the "visible" church but that's generations and not necessarily regenerations. Our Lord used the parable of weeds such as tares with the wheat type parables all the time: no congregation is pure from weeds. So to distinguish true believers from false ones, people realized that they themselves do not know thus came up with the visible church that we see here, and the "God-only-knows" true believers which are "invisible" in a sense. But I agree with you 110% that since we are in the flesh yet that there is a physical meeting place for believers, and the body of Christ is collectively called the Church of Jesus Christ; and the epistles deal extensively with training believers how to recognize false ones.
Invisible and universal church.. is a Protestant idea.. that's right. It's calling the Family and Kingdom the same thing as the body of Christ.

What I'm talking about with the visible church though.. is purely local churches..

Some believers aren't in it.
 

Jim B

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The whole global every believer entity.. that isn't the body of Christ. That's part of the Family of God. So an independent Christian is part of the Family.. not part of a body of Christ till they join a biblical church.
There is nothing in Scripture that says this. Romans 12:4-5, "For as in one body we have many members and not all the members have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another." There is no mention of the church here.

And there is no requirement to join a biblical church anywhere in Scripture that I know of. For example, in Acts 8:28-40, it says...

"Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a wilderness road.)So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to this chariot and join it.” So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him. Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and like a lamb silent before its shearer,
so he does not open his mouth.
In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”

The eunuch asked Philip, “About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus. As they were going along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?” He commanded the chariot to stop, and both of them, Philip and the eunuch, went down into the water, and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; the eunuch saw him no more and went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he was passing through the region he proclaimed the good news to all the towns until he came to Caesarea."

Notice that nowhere does Philip say, "now you must go find a Biblical church, otherwise you belief is in vain".
 

360watt

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There is nothing in Scripture that says this. Romans 12:4-5, "For as in one body we have many members and not all the members have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another." There is no mention of the church here.

And there is no requirement to join a biblical church anywhere in Scripture that I know of. For example, in Acts 8:28-40, it says...

"Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a wilderness road.)So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to this chariot and join it.” So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him. Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and like a lamb silent before its shearer,
so he does not open his mouth.
In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”

The eunuch asked Philip, “About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus. As they were going along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?” He commanded the chariot to stop, and both of them, Philip and the eunuch, went down into the water, and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; the eunuch saw him no more and went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he was passing through the region he proclaimed the good news to all the towns until he came to Caesarea."

Notice that nowhere does Philip say, "now you must go find a Biblical church, otherwise you belief is in vain".
Most believers in the NT joined a church. Saints.. were pretty much faithful church members.

1 Co 12 though.. Paul calls the church at Corinth the body of Christ. That's a local and visible assembly of saved, baptized believers.

Also 'the ' in front of body of Christ' could be taken away and replaced with 'a' .. because there is no definite article to it in the Greek