ScottA
Well-Known Member
It would appear that we have not been community, because we are now both speaking of one body. Good!
Eternal salvation and 'the church'
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Yes.. I'm speaking of a body of saved baptised believers in each locality as the NT had them.
These are still local though. And not every believer is part of them.
So an unbaptised believer.. wouldn't be in a church body.
But still redeemed and in the Family and Kingdom of God.
That's the separation of salvation from 'the church '
ScottA
Well-Known Member
But what is your point?
Are you saying they are or are not saved, that the feet are not connected to the legs--what?
I'm saying the body of Christ is a local church. The feet.. the hands etc.. those are individual members of a local church. All in a real NT church would be saved and baptised. So all would be saved in that church who are members.
That's how it's defined in 1 Corinthians 12.
But all redeemed.. isn't this entity. That's not the body of Christ. There are saved people not in churches.. so they wouldn't be in the body of Christ.
They would be in the Family of God and the Kingdom. These are different entities to the body of Christ. Which is a God owned local church. Or singular standing for all of God's local churches combined.
So a member of the body of Christ-- that's a member of one God's churches. That's how it's defined in 1 Corinthians 12.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
No, you are reading into it the things that would only make it appear so. There is only One "entity" which God, and in Him Christ, and in Christ His body--all who are His, all who are "in Him", "One new man", as Paul stated:
This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
The Church of the first century was something real and tangible: an international community made up of Christians who obeyed the things they learned from the apostles and the anointed of Pentecost. Even if their congregations were dispersed through diferent cities, they all belonged to the same religion and that is why the letters we have recorded in the Bible are addressed to brothers who knew of their brothers in other parts of the empire. There was not a baptist Paul, a pentecostal Peter, a calvinist James or a Methodist John. All of them were members of the same Church.
Today they invent a "church" to personal taste.
Today they invent a "church" to personal taste.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Eternal salvation is for them that love and obey Him.
The church and body of Christ is them that love and obey Him.
The local churches of God has them that love and obey Him, as well as them that don't.
The church is the body of Christ. You don't join the body (the church), but you are rather added to it by the Lord upon being baptized in his name after which you are added to the body by him. Read Acts 2:38-47
(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Act 2:39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
(Act 2:40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
(Act 2:41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(Act 2:42) And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
(Act 2:43) And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
(Act 2:44) And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
(Act 2:45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Act 2:46) And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
(Act 2:47) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Key questions:
Who is Peter talking to?
What kind of baptism is this? If it is an entire group being empowered by the Holy Spirit-- that is not water baptism-- and they were already converted before being empowered. If it is individual's being baptised by immersion.. then they were already converted before baptism.
What church is this? There is no mention of all redeemed here.. but the church at Jerusalem. Local and visible. Added to the church-- is new members to the church at Jerusalem. This is the church Paul persecuted. He wasn't persecuting 'every believer' or 'all redeemed'.. but THAT church.
What is receiving the Holy Ghost here? A group being empowered or an individual receiving salvation?
They are not the same thing.
(Act 2:39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
(Act 2:40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
(Act 2:41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(Act 2:42) And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
(Act 2:43) And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
(Act 2:44) And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
(Act 2:45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Act 2:46) And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
(Act 2:47) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Key questions:
Who is Peter talking to?
What kind of baptism is this? If it is an entire group being empowered by the Holy Spirit-- that is not water baptism-- and they were already converted before being empowered. If it is individual's being baptised by immersion.. then they were already converted before baptism.
What church is this? There is no mention of all redeemed here.. but the church at Jerusalem. Local and visible. Added to the church-- is new members to the church at Jerusalem. This is the church Paul persecuted. He wasn't persecuting 'every believer' or 'all redeemed'.. but THAT church.
What is receiving the Holy Ghost here? A group being empowered or an individual receiving salvation?
They are not the same thing.
In the first century there were many Christian congregations (greek: ἐκκλησία) scattered throughout different regions of the world.
We know many of them from Paul's letters, since he himself was the founder of several of these congregations through his missionary work. He also kept abreast of the spiritual progress of all its members as well as the oversight work being done by the elders appointed to guide them.
We can read things like this in the book of Acts and his letters:
(ASV) Acts 15:36 And after some days Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us return now and visit the brethren in every city wherein we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they fare. (...) 40 (...) Paul choose Silas, and went forth, being commended by the brethren to the grace of the Lord. 41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.
Paul was anointed by holy spirit to bring the good news to people everywhere. It is obvious that these "churches" were supervised by others who had really been chosen by God for their foundation and spiritual growth. They were not churches like modern ones, without centralized leadership nor depending on theological schools that teach such contradictory things and are run by financial interests, many of which are in the hands of individuals who are not even believers.
We know many of them from Paul's letters, since he himself was the founder of several of these congregations through his missionary work. He also kept abreast of the spiritual progress of all its members as well as the oversight work being done by the elders appointed to guide them.
We can read things like this in the book of Acts and his letters:
(ASV) Acts 15:36 And after some days Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us return now and visit the brethren in every city wherein we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they fare. (...) 40 (...) Paul choose Silas, and went forth, being commended by the brethren to the grace of the Lord. 41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.
Paul was anointed by holy spirit to bring the good news to people everywhere. It is obvious that these "churches" were supervised by others who had really been chosen by God for their foundation and spiritual growth. They were not churches like modern ones, without centralized leadership nor depending on theological schools that teach such contradictory things and are run by financial interests, many of which are in the hands of individuals who are not even believers.
These churches mostly had greater care for their members also than what you see today. In Acts a church gets everyone putting their possessions in a pool and then giving to those in need. So no one was too poor.
The Colossians and Phillipi churches were commended by Paul for their love and faithfulness. Also Ephesus had strong love for each other.
Corinthians was a problem church.. they were doing the Lords Supper wrong, mis using spiritual gifts and combining pagan practices in their church.
Funny how many churches now repeat the Corinthians issues. Like mimicking it rather than learning from it.
True, the family of God, those who have been born again of the Spirit are in the spiritual Kingdom of God. Christ tells us no man can know or enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. (Jo 3) All mankind knows of God, because from creation the invisible things of God are clearly seen, and understood by the things that God has made, including His eternal power and Godhead (divinity). But knowing God and His divine power through creation does not equip fallen mankind with the knowledge of Christ, or the way to have eternal life through Him.
Romans 1:19-21 (KJV) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
The knowledge of Christ, our Lord and Saviour is made known to mankind by His Gospel. That whosoever shall call upon Christ's name shall be saved. But none could call upon whom they had not heard, and none can hear without a preacher. Now we begin to understand the purpose for which the Church exists on this earth. Because it is through the Church the saints on earth are equipped with first the Law, the prophets, and the Temple, and in the New Testament Church He gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (Eph 4:11-16)
Romans 10:12-15 (KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Christ commissioned His Church to preach the Gospel. For it is by the Gospel believed in the power of the Spirit that man's hearts are changed, and they enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God. This was true in both the Old Covenant Church, and the New Covenant Church. Hearing the Gospel, and by grace through faith believing in Christ is the way all men enter the Kingdom of God and have eternal life through Christ. In the Old the Gospel of Messiah who would come to redeem them and give eternal life to all who believed. In the New the Gospel of Christ having come as foretold is the way that mankind is saved when they believe. Even unto Abraham the Gospel was preached (Gal 3:8).
The Church on earth is the representation of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. The Church as She exists in this world is never pure, undefiled and without sin. She won't be presented to God without spot or blemish until She has been wholly sanctified and cleansed by the washing of the Word. That Christ might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
All that does not belong in the spiritual Kingdom of God, which the Church on earth represents, shall be cast out of His Kingdom when Christ comes again.
Matthew 13:41 (KJV) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Yeah, right?
And what "church"? And what "gospel"?
The teachings of Christendom on the same subject are so contradictory!!! ... that no one learns anything concrete out of its churcheries sermons.
Imagine a person who wants to know what the rapture is and when it happens. His pastor tells him that all of the "church" are going to be abducted as if by spaceships and go to live in heaven before the rest of humanity suffers the great tribulation. Reading a book by a theologian that his own pastor recommended to him, he finds that it will not be before the great tribulation, but that it will be during... And if he keeps reading more theologians and listening to more pastors from other denominations, the list of contradictions multiply and rise to powers ... and only in this single matter. Imagine summing in all biblical topics.
So who's going to preach and what? When you are going to teach someone what the Bible says, which of all the theories are you going to expose as biblical?
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Davy
Well-Known Member
You can SCRAP your "local" idea. You are not going to make that work into God's written Word, which all you are trying to do, i.e., ADD to God's Word.
The meaning of the word 'local' itself means something that within a nearby location. It does NOT point to any ideas of 'universalism', nor to God's written Word about His Church of The Spirit, which always was, and always will be, His True Church in the Heavenly.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You need A LOT MORE BIBLE STUDY, because you are wrongly trying to mix men's SECULARIST thinking with God's written Word. The Gnostics of the 2nd century A.D. tried to do that and it failed. Thus you SOUND like one of them, for modern Gnostic movements still exist today.
Davy
Well-Known Member
The beginning of the Acts 2 chapter reveals... who the multitudes were that Christ's Apostles were speaking to there on Pentecost. They were devout Jews out of every nation under heaven.
And when the Apostles spoke to those same multitudes on that day, the multitudes heard THEIR OWN LANGUAGES AND DIALECTS OF BIRTH. This was the manifesting of the 'cloven' tongue, NOT a gibberish speech, but INTELLIGIBLE SPEECH BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. It was pointing to the ORIGINAL TONGUE THAT ALL NATIONS ONCE SPOKE.
Just because all present 'heard' the Apostles speak in their own dialects via The Holy Spirit does NOT mean those multitudes had to be Christian converts, nor that they all later would convert to Christ! It's silly to even think such a thing, for why would Peter then later explain to them their need to be saved in Christ if 'hearing' the cloven tongue from The Holy Spirit meant being baptized?
AND YOU MISSED THE MAIN PART OF PETER'S DECLARATION ABOUT JESUS OF NAZARETH AS THE CHRIST, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MAIN IDEAS PETER PREACHED TO THOSE JEWS!
Acts 2:32-36
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, "The LORD said unto my Lord, 'Sit Thou on My right hand,
35 Until I make Thy foes Thy footstool.'"
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, Whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
KJV
Peter even reminds them of David's prophecy in the Psalms about Jesus!
Certainly not the gospel your clan has indoctrinated you with! To understand the Church on earth we must learn from the Word of God, and not accept what your clan tells you is true.
Not accepting the good news of the kingdom is not news to anyone. Jesus said that would happen:
John 15:17 “These things I command you, that you love one another. 18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin. But now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me also hates my Father. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have both seen me and hated me as well as my Father. 25 But this happened in order to fulfill the word written in their Law: ‘They hated me without cause.’
When a person joins the true church, they can no longer believe what seems to be true to himself, but have to learn the truth. He, too, cannot practice what he wants, but he has to respect God and the Son of God by obeying the biblical principles. Since in false Christendom anyone can believe and practice what they want, not everyone has the right attitude to qualify as a true disciple of Christ. Note that when a person is not in God's people it is not because that person does not want to, but because he does not have the right attitude that is needed, so God does not attract him to his true people:
John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.
The false religious leaders and theologians encourage that disorder that exists in Christendom, because they themselves are neither there nor let others in, like Pharisees (Matt.23:13), but they have a lot of profits from their religious businesses, so they practically force their followers to be spiritually lost... as the saying says: "a troubled river fishermen's profit".
Unfortunately, this means that in order to qualify to be accepted by God in the people who will inherit the kingdom, it requires too deep changes that not everyone is willing. Some will even try, but fail to:
Luke 13:23 Now a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. 25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’ 28 There is where your weeping and the gnashing of your teeth will be, when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown outside. 29 Furthermore, people will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God. 30 And look! there are those last who will be first, and there are those first who will be last.”
John 6:43 In response Jesus said to them: “Stop murmuring among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’ [Is. 54:13]. Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me".
Notice in all of Jesus' teachings how important the Father is to salvation...but in Babylonian Christendom with all its confusion, they don't respect the Father of Jesus.
John 15:17 “These things I command you, that you love one another. 18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin. But now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me also hates my Father. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have both seen me and hated me as well as my Father. 25 But this happened in order to fulfill the word written in their Law: ‘They hated me without cause.’
When a person joins the true church, they can no longer believe what seems to be true to himself, but have to learn the truth. He, too, cannot practice what he wants, but he has to respect God and the Son of God by obeying the biblical principles. Since in false Christendom anyone can believe and practice what they want, not everyone has the right attitude to qualify as a true disciple of Christ. Note that when a person is not in God's people it is not because that person does not want to, but because he does not have the right attitude that is needed, so God does not attract him to his true people:
John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.
The false religious leaders and theologians encourage that disorder that exists in Christendom, because they themselves are neither there nor let others in, like Pharisees (Matt.23:13), but they have a lot of profits from their religious businesses, so they practically force their followers to be spiritually lost... as the saying says: "a troubled river fishermen's profit".
Unfortunately, this means that in order to qualify to be accepted by God in the people who will inherit the kingdom, it requires too deep changes that not everyone is willing. Some will even try, but fail to:
Luke 13:23 Now a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. 25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’ 28 There is where your weeping and the gnashing of your teeth will be, when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown outside. 29 Furthermore, people will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God. 30 And look! there are those last who will be first, and there are those first who will be last.”
John 6:43 In response Jesus said to them: “Stop murmuring among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’ [Is. 54:13]. Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me".
Notice in all of Jesus' teachings how important the Father is to salvation...but in Babylonian Christendom with all its confusion, they don't respect the Father of Jesus.
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Yeah.. the tongues speaking in Acts 2 was earthly languages. Not gibberish.
What people heard was their own language being spoken to spread God's gospel.
And yeah.. the Jews aren't all included in those converted. Some did get converted but not all
Gnostics don't believe Jesus is God. They elevate themselves with their own knowledge. Probably think they are their own God. I am not sure.
How do you interpret the bible?
By asking questions like who is talking to whom? What is the subject? What is the occasion? What is the time and place?
That's all I'm trying to do.
The bible interprets itself.
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