Eternal salvation and 'the church'

[Davy]

Thanks for the reply. You are referring to Romans 8:9, but this doesn't talk about the church. The subject of this is the state of a believer in the Spirit.

A primary verse many use is 1 Corinthians 12:13. With Greek or Jew being baptised into one body. Including Paul.

The issue with doing that with 1 Corinthians 12:13 is that every other reference to church in the chapter is of a local and visible assembly.

The body described has all the language of locality and visibility and togetherness. Paul even calls the church at Corinth 'the body of Christ'

So then the weight of evidence is that the 1 Corinthians 12:13 is referring to baptism in water, after salvation, as a pre requisite to joining a local church.

In case you don't get what I'm saying, I'll be more blunt. You are wrongly trying... to redefine the word 'church' with secularist fleshy reasoning. That will not work, and I showed from God's Word why that won't work. It is because Christ's Church in its essence is of that OTHER DIMENSION, the Heavenly!

Didn't you notice even in Revelation 2:1-5 Christ's Message to the Church at Ephesus to repent, or He would remove their "candlestick" from its place? The 7 candlesticks Apostle John was shown in Rev.1 are in HEAVEN. And Jesus said the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches.

Also in case you are not aware historically, those 7 Churches in ancient Cappadocia formed a circle, representing perfection. Thus the 7 candlesticks in Heaven represent all... of Christ's Churches today. We are even shown in Revelation 11 for the end that "two candlesticks" (ie., 2 Church types) will make a stand against the beast along with God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem.

 

[360watt]

In case you don't get what I'm saying, I'll be more blunt. You are wrongly trying... to redefine the word 'church' with secularist fleshy reasoning. That will not work, and I showed from God's Word why that won't work. It is because Christ's Church in its essence is of that OTHER DIMENSION, the Heavenly!

Didn't you notice even in Revelation 2:1-5 Christ's Message to the Church at Ephesus to repent, or He would remove their "candlestick" from its place? The 7 candlesticks Apostle John was shown in Rev.1 are in HEAVEN. And Jesus said the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches.

Also in case you are not aware historically, those 7 Churches in ancient Cappadocia formed a circle, representing perfection. Thus the 7 candlesticks in Heaven represent all... of Christ's Churches today. We are even shown in Revelation 11 for the end that "two candlesticks" (ie., 2 Church types) will make a stand against the beast along with God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem.

Yeah in the end there is the Heavenly Jerusalem church of all redeemed.

But we aren't there yet. It hasn't formed. All redeemed aren't assembled and so couldn't be called 'the church'

It's not secular, fleshly thinking.. it's letting scripture speak for itself.

Also the seven churches.. that's churches plural. Not one church of all redeemed.

Ephesians.. the candlestick is the place of the Holy Spirit in that local church.

 

[Davy]

Yeah in the end there is the Heavenly Jerusalem church of all redeemed.

But we aren't there yet. It hasn't formed. All redeemed aren't assembled and so couldn't be called 'the church'

It's not secular, fleshly thinking.. it's letting scripture speak for itself.

Also the seven churches.. that's churches plural. Not one church of all redeemed.

Ephesians.. the candlestick is the place of the Holy Spirit in that local church.

Sorry, but you apparently still do not understand about spiritual temple, which is what Christ's True Church is.

This is the Church those in Christ should be seeking...

Heb 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV

 

[ElieG12]

Again: there is not any virtual church composed of people of diferent contradictory beliefs or in diferent religions, or even in groups which do not know the Father as much as they know the Son, nor individuals who practice sin as a habit, etc.

That idea is a collective illusion elaborated by people who cannot recognize the true church of God from the biblical point of view, due to the broken situation of religions and false religiosity of individuals and religious groups that call themselves Christians.

If you ask any of these people if they are part of the Church, they will say YES, just as much as anyone. It is a spirit of self-deception that allows them to live with a hardened conscience, unresponsive to acknowledgment of erroneous beliefs and acknowledgment of sinful practices in the midst of which they live.

 

[360watt]

Sorry, but you apparently still do not understand about spiritual temple, which is what Christ's True Church is.

This is the Church those in Christ should be seeking...

Heb 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV

The New Jerusalem is a yet future situation. We aren't there yet. There is churches plural.. but not one church of all redeemed yet.

 

[360watt]

Again: there is not any virtual church composed of people of diferent contradictory beliefs or in diferent religions, or even in groups which do not know the Father as much as they know the Son, nor individuals who practice sin as a habit, etc.

That idea is a collective illusion elaborated by people who cannot recognize the true church of God from the biblical point of view, due to the broken situation of religions and false religiosity of individuals and religious groups that call themselves Christians.

If you ask any of these people if they are part of the Church, they will say YES, just as much as anyone. It is a spirit of self-deception that allows them to live with a hardened conscience, unresponsive to acknowledgment of erroneous beliefs and acknowledgment of sinful practices in the midst of which they live.

Yeah, a universal invisible church of all redeemed isn't in scripture.

The Family of God includes all redeemed.. and that is.


'The church ' has to assemble. It is a congregation.

A church of all redeemed isn't assembled. It will in the end as the New Jerusalem. But we aren't there yet.

 

[ScottA]

It's incredibly popular..

The teaching that all redeemed, every believer is 'the church'

But where is that in scripture?

Most of you all will have being converted .. and that meaning you join the body of Christ, 'the church'. Have you really done an honest study of this?

I believe eternal salvation and joining 'the church' are very different things. That 'the church' is the institution of the local, saved and baptised unit of believers. The one down the road.

Not that they have to have a building over their head.. but the local community of saved, baptised believers covenanted together to carry out the great commission and commandment, with Jesus as the Head.

So proof texts:

Matthew 16:18.... Jesus describes building His church. This can't be a church of all redeemed..'universal, invisible' because in Matthew 18:20 Jesus describes the process for resolving sin issues in a church-- local and visible. Jesus isn't going to define 'the church' one way.. and then describe it differently the next time He mentions it.

So we get to Acts-- and there is 'the church' that gets added to with souls.

By context ... this is the church AT Jerusalem. Paul persecuted 'the church' ... that was none other than the church at Jerusalem. Local and visible... not 'universal, invisible'. So people being added to 'the church' is already converted people joining the church at Jerusalem for membership.

Church meaning- ecclessia-- 'congregation, assembly'

Then we go to Corinth. Chapter 12 describes the body of Christ. Paul calls Corinth.. the body of Christ. Local and visible.. not universal, invisible.

The wording to describe the body of Christ here is of a unified assembly. All the language is of togetherness and connectedness. It's describing the local church at Corinth. The word 'the' in front of body of Christ.. is also an addition. In the Greek there is no definite article in front of it.. so it could be 'a' body of Christ.

Ephesians has a church of all redeemed.. but that is not a present reality. It's the future outlook when all believers will be one church in the New Jerusalem. Still local and visible... not universal, invisible. The New Jerusalem church will be assembled.. even though absolutely huge.

So-- the challenge to you all.. is do an in-depth study of what the body of Christ, the church is. Is a universal, invisible church of all redeemed.. really biblical?

Have a study also of the Family of God. The Family IS all redeemed.. and is inside the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is the widest entity.. encompassing all God owns. The Family is inside this. The body of Christ.. the local church.. is inside the Family.

This appears to be conjecture from your own attempts at defining what you believe rather than what you actually know to be true. While the scriptures overall describe only one gathering, that is--in Himself one new man from the two.

 

[Davy]

The New Jerusalem is a yet future situation. We aren't there yet. There is churches plural.. but not one church of all redeemed yet.

That verse is in the 'present' tense. It's about our 'spirit' in Christ connection with the Heavenly Zion already. When Jesus returns in the future, that is when His HEAVENLY Kingdom will be 'literally' established upon this earth. But until then, we are already in His Kingdom via The Spirit. The physical part is still expecting.

 

[360watt]

This appears to be conjecture from your own attempts at defining what you believe rather than what you actually know to be true. While the scriptures overall describe only one gathering, that is--in Himself one new man from the two.

Mathew 16:18.. Jesus building His church.

Mathew 18:20 is of a visible local assembly.. therefore Mathew 16:18 would also be. Jesus isn't going to define His church one way and then contradict it.

Paul persecuting 'the church of God' when he was a Pharisee. That is none other than the assembly at Jerusalem.

The body of Christ described by Paul to the church at Corinth..

IS the church at Corinth. Local and visible.

I could go on and on.

There is of course is an entity of all redeemed.. that is in the Family of God. And the Kingdom above that.

This is where eternal salvation becomes seperate from 'the church'

Membership to the Family of God had no requirements but initial belief in Christ as God.

Membership to the 'church'.. a local assembly.. has requirements.

 

[360watt]

That verse is in the 'present' tense. It's about our 'spirit' in Christ connection with the Heavenly Zion already. When Jesus returns in the future, that is when His HEAVENLY Kingdom will be 'literally' established upon this earth. But until then, we are already in His Kingdom via The Spirit. The physical part is still expecting.

The Kingdom of God and the body of Christ are not the same entity.

Neither is the Family of God the same entity as the body of Christ.

 

[Davy]

The Kingdom of God and the body of Christ are not the same entity.

Neither is the Family of God the same entity as the body of Christ.

Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven (pointing to this present world time) is not by flesh eyes, but the kingdom of heaven is 'within' us, meaning inside us. He was pointing to our spirit inside our flesh being connected to the Heavenly Zion of Hebrews 12:22.

So when you pray to The Father in the name of Jesus Christ, your 'spirit' inside you is praying to The Father Who is a Spirit, for like Apostle John said, those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). When was that 'link up' established? It was established when God first created us with a 'spirit' inside our flesh, for men having been praying to Him since His creation. Under the old covenant the mediator in that was the Levitical priesthood. But now under the New Covenant, Jesus is our Mediator to The Father, as we pray directly to The Father now ourselves, via Christ's name. How does He hear us? By our 'spirit' to His Spirit. That is a heavenly operation, not one of our flesh. If one thinks when they pray that it is just their flesh body going through motions with no spirit working, then they might as well be praying to a brick wall.

 

[ScottA]

Mathew 16:18.. Jesus building His church.

Mathew 18:20 is of a visible local assembly.. therefore Mathew 16:18 would also be. Jesus isn't going to define His church one way and then contradict it.

Paul persecuting 'the church of God' when he was a Pharisee. That is none other than the assembly at Jerusalem.

The body of Christ described by Paul to the church at Corinth..

IS the church at Corinth. Local and visible.

I could go on and on.

There is of course is an entity of all redeemed.. that is in the Family of God. And the Kingdom above that.

This is where eternal salvation becomes seperate from 'the church'

Membership to the Family of God had no requirements but initial belief in Christ as God.

Membership to the 'church'.. a local assembly.. has requirements.

You have separated what God has joined together.

 

[360watt]

You have separated what God has joined together.

All that matters is how scriptures defines the New Testament church.

The body of Christ is the church.. defined one way.

So it's either local or universal but not both.

And Paul defines it as local by calling the Corinthians the body of Christ.

 

[ScottA]

All that matters is how scriptures defines the New Testament church.

The body of Christ is the church.. defined one way.

So it's either local or universal but not both.

And Paul defines it as local by calling the Corinthians the body of Christ.

Your logic is backwards. Yes, there are many members who make up the body, but it is one body. And yes, there are many persons who are born into the blindness of the things of this world as if it were all individual, but God refers to them favorably as "one man."

Why, therefore, do you not do the same, but divide what He makes One?

 

[Enoch111]

So it's either local or universal but not both.

Since there could be hundreds of local churches scattered around the globe, that in itself would make it "universal". But there is more to it. It is only those who have been baptized INTO the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit that are within that Body. And only God knows who is and who is not within that Body.

There is a false doctrine out there about "the Baptist Bride". These people insist that only those within their church are within the Body of Christ. Even a lot of Baptists don't buy that.

 

[360watt]

Since there could be hundreds of local churches scattered around the globe, that in itself would make it "universal". But there is more to it. It is only those who have been baptized INTO the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit that are within that Body. And only God knows who is and who is not within that Body.

There is a false doctrine out there about "the Baptist Bride". These people insist that only those within their church are within the Body of Christ. Even a lot of Baptists don't buy that.

I can agree with all local churches being 'the church'. But that isn't all redeemed.

There will be believers who haven't joined a church.. not in this.

I don't agree with a 'Baptist bride' either.. there are many many churches that are biblically sound that aren't Baptist in name. They would be included in 'the church '

But if scripture defines the body of Christ as local.. then it doesn't matter if its a Baptist bride or not.. it's still churches plural.

I know about the Baptist bride thing.. there are many independent missionary Baptists who stick to it.

My own church is pretty much the same thing.. but we don't hold to the Baptist name being the bride.

 

[360watt]

Your logic is backwards. Yes, there are many members who make of the body, but it is one body. And yes, there are many persons who are born into the blindness of the things of this world as if it were all individual, but God refers to them favorably as "one man."

Why, therefore, do you not do the same, but divide what He makes One?

One body in each locality.

One body at Ephesus.. one body at Corinth.. one body at Phillipi etc

Got a problem with multiple bodies?

The Holy Spirit indwells every believer.. is that millions and millions of Holy Spirit's ?

No.

One Jesus.. with many NT assemblies He owns. Body as in 'group ' , 'congregation '.. 'assembly'

 

[Davy]

All that matters is how scriptures defines the New Testament church.

The body of Christ is the church.. defined one way.

So it's either local or universal but not both.

And Paul defines it as local by calling the Corinthians the body of Christ.

I have relatives that go to a certain Church denomination that thinks they are the only true Church, just because they use the title, The Church of Jesus Christ.

They believe that ONLY by being a physical member of that above Church organizational system that one can be saved. See, they are not actually pointing directly to The Father and His Son Jesus Christ to be saved, they are pointing to a church system devised by men!

 

[ElieG12]

To know what the Church is in modern times, we must know what the Church was when that term was used to identify it. Modern Christendom is absolutely nothing like the early church, and among the thousands of real communities (self-proclaimed Christians) that exist and/or coexist in unity, ONE OF THEM should qualify as such, if its system is similar/equal to the system of the original Christian Church of the first century. The Scriptures contain prophecies about the revival of the true Church in our times.

Mal. 3:16 At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.
17 “And they will be mine,” says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property. I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him.”

The Bible contains the key guidelines to recognize where the Church of God is in our times. For example:

1) love and unity identifies them (John 13:35; Eph. 4:1-6)
2) worldwide preaching identifies them (Matt. 24:14; 28:19,20; Acts 1:8 )
3) they worship the Father in spirit and in truth, and do His will (John 4:23,24; Matt. 7:21)

 

[360watt]

I have relatives that go to a certain Church denomination that thinks they are the only true Church, just because they use the title, The Church of Jesus Christ.

They believe that ONLY by being a physical member of that above Church organizational system that one can be saved. See, they are not actually pointing directly to The Father and His Son Jesus Christ to be saved, they are pointing to a church system devised by men!

Yes that's attaching eternal salvation to 'the church'.

I believe they are separate.

Eternal salvation is thru believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again, lived sinless, and that by believing in Him, an individual has eternal life.

Being a member of 'the church ' though.. has requirements for service. But it's not binding on salvation.