Eternal Security

[BobRyan]

God said --
Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

When Abraham lived, there was no Law.

It is left as an exercise for the reader - choosing who to believe.

(try not to make this too easy for me)

you are mistaken in your post (#1056) and in your fantasy of Abraham being under law.

Read the text

1 John 3:4 - by definition: "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"
Rom 3:19-20 "through the LAW comes the knowledge of SIN"
Romans 5:13 "No sin - where there is no Law"
Rom 4:15 "15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

So then when we see SIN - in Genesis 4, in Romans 5 for Adam...etc we know there is LAW for by definiton "sin IS transgression of the LAW". period.

Plus you said where there is no law there is no sin,

Read the text

Romans 5:13 "No sin - where there is no Law"
Rom 4:15 "15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."
1 John 3:4 - by definition: "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"

 

[Stranger]

Enoch goes to heaven without dying.
Noah is called "righteous" by God and Hebrews 11 has Noah living "righteousness by faith" -- "became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."

Rom 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

1 John 3:4 - by definition: "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"
Rom 3:19-20 "through the LAW comes the knowledge of SIN"
Romans 5:13 "No sin - where there is no Law"
Rom 4:15 "15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

So then when we see SIN - in Genesis 4, in Romans 5 for Adam...etc we know there is LAW for by definiton "sin IS transgression of the LAW". period.

(Rom. 5:13) does not say "No sin- where there is no Law" . It says (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." It says just the opposite. Nice smoke screen.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

God said --
Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”




It is left as an exercise for the reader - choosing who to believe.

(try not to make this too easy for me)



Read the text

1 John 3:4 - by definition: "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"
Rom 3:19-20 "through the LAW comes the knowledge of SIN"
Romans 5:13 "No sin - where there is no Law"
Rom 4:15 "15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

So then when we see SIN - in Genesis 4, in Romans 5 for Adam...etc we know there is LAW for by definiton "sin IS transgression of the LAW". period.



Read the text

Romans 5:13 "No sin - where there is no Law"
Rom 4:15 "15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."
1 John 3:4 - by definition: "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"

Apparently you have comprehension problems. (Rom. 5:13) "..until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

Stranger

 

[BobRyan]

God said --
Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

When Abraham lived, there was no Law.

It is left as an exercise for the reader - choosing who to believe.

(try not to make this too easy for me)

you are mistaken in your post (#1056) and in your fantasy of Abraham being under law.

Read the text

1 John 3:4 - by definition: "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"
Rom 3:19-20 "through the LAW comes the knowledge of SIN"
Romans 5:13 "No sin - where there is no Law"
Rom 4:15 "15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

Nice smoke screen. Stranger

More Bible -- less creative writing.

So then when we see SIN - in Genesis 4, in Romans 5 for Adam...etc we know there is LAW for by definiton "sin IS transgression of the LAW". period.

Plus you said where there is no law there is no sin,

Read the text

Romans 5:13 "No sin - where there is no Law"
Rom 4:15 "15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."
1 John 3:4 - by definition: "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"

Apparently you have comprehension problems. (Rom. 5:13) "..until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
Stranger

Sin "transgression of the LAW" was charged against Adam... according to Romans 5 "through one man's SIN", "The likeness of Adam's SIN"

Sin was charged to Cain and imputed to Cain - Genesis 4 - "SIN is crouching at your door" - Cain needed to bring an animal sacrifice for sin.

Sin was charged to Eve - 1 Tim 2:14 "Eve first sinned" -- and "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"

You are totally misreading Romans 5:13

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world,

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- by definition.

The writing of the LAW on stone happens at Sinai -- but no serious Bible scholar would dare argue that before Sinai it was not a sin to take God's name in vain.

Although there is no written law before Sinai - there IS LAW and the proof is that SIN existed before Sinai which cannot happen if there is no LAW.

period.

God said --
Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

 

[Stranger]

Read the text

Romans 5:13 "No sin - where there is no Law"
Rom 4:15 "15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."
1 John 3:4 - by definition: "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"



Sin was imputed to Adam... according to Romans 5 "through one man's SIN", "The likeness of Adam's SIN"
Sin was imputed to Cain - Genesis 4 - "SIN is crouching at your door"
Sin was imputed to Eve - 1 Tim 2:14 "Eve first sinned"

You are totally misreading Romans 5:13

No. Sin was not imputed to Adam. How silly. Adam sinned.

When there is law, then sin is transgression. When there is no law, even though there is sin, there is no transgression.

(Rom. 5:13-14) is clear. From Adam to Moses there was no Law. Which means there was no transgression. But all died anyway because sin still existed.

In other words you are saying opposite of what (Rom. 5:13-14) is saying.

Stranger

 

[Episkopos]

No. Sin was not imputed to Adam. How silly. Adam sinned.

When there is law, then sin is transgression. When there is no law, even though there is sin, there is no transgression.

(Rom. 5:13-14) is clear. From Adam to Moses there was no Law. Which means there was no transgression. But all died anyway because sin still existed.

In other words you are saying opposite of what (Rom. 5:13-14) is saying.

Stranger

To impute means "to be responsible for"....or determined to be. There is a whole doctrinal error based on a bad interpretation of the word "impute". It means to be "deemed to be".

As in...."the rash was imputed to the poison ivy." or...."the engine failure was imputed to the bird strike."

So when God imputed righteousness to Abraham...it is because He recognized Abraham's faithfulness in what he did.

 

[Enoch111]

So when God imputed righteousness to Abraham...it is because He recognized Abraham's faithfulness in what he did.

We need to be careful here. Was it Abraham's faith or Abraham's faithfulness? Scripture tells us exactly which one it was.

...Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all... (Rom 4:16)

Faithfulness would follow, but Abraham is "the father" (progenitor and precursor) of all those who simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption.

It is correct to say that when we are justified we are "deemed righteous", as long as we make it clear that we are deemed thus because it is the righteousness of Christ -- the righteousness of God Himself -- which is imputed to the guilty and condemned sinner. And that is AMAZING GRACE!

 

[BobRyan]

You can repeat your usual all you want. See again (Rom. 5:13-14) There was no law from Adam to Moses. When Abraham lived, there was no Law.

Is (Rom. 5:13-14) speculation?

Stranger

See Romans 4:15 - "where there is no Law there is no SIN" Romans 5:13
See Romans 5:12 - there WAS SIN starting with Adam. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world
See 1 Tim 2:14 - SIN starting with Eve
See Genesis 4 - SIN even at the time of Cain
see 1 John 3:4 - SIN IS (by definition) "Transgression of the LAW" even in the NT
Sin is not imputed where there is no law - and so

More Bible details... less creative writing please.

These are basic Bible facts agreed to by C.H. Spurgeon, Baptist Confession of Faith, Westminster Confession of Faith etc.

Essentially every Christian group on planet Earth admits to this basic fact about the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God written on the heart in the OT - starting in Eden.

Consider paying attention to the "Bible details"

You need to pay attention. You need to give the chapter and verse.

Yes - chapter and verse -- I think we can all see that.

(Romans 4:15 and 1 John 3:4 and Rom. 5:13-14) say just opposite of what you prefer.

Sin existed before the giving of the law on stone Law, but law in the form of God's WORD existed before "writing on stone" thus SIN existed before the formal "writing on stone". . That is why death reigned. It reigned over them that were under the old covenant "obey and live" and "Sin IS transgression of the LAW".

As for "obedience" to LAW, and COMMANDMENTs and STATUTES before the "writing on stone" of God's Word well - Genesis 26 says it all.

Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

 

[BobRyan]

To impute means "to be responsible for"....or determined to be. .

No one needs a savior if they have not transgressed the law - but if they have transgressed the law - guilty of sin -- they need a Savior. IF they have not sinned they cannot be charged as sinners.

There is no sin where there is no Law so then if it is said that Adam sinned - then by definition there was LAW for "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"...

 

[BobRyan]

No. Sin was not imputed to Adam. How silly. Adam sinned.

death spread to all men, because all sinned
"SIN IS transgression of the Law"

No text says " Adam did not sin".
"death spread to all men, because all sinned" -- Romans 5:12

No one lived before Adam so as to sin before Adam and to "impute sin" to Adam as his parent.

Adam was created under the Old Covenant - "obey and live" as Genesis 2 and 3 point out. Adam sinned... Adam died... "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Adam sinned, Adam died... Sin IS (by definition) transgression of the law.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
Adam sinned - Romans 5

LAW existed - and the Old Covenant condemned Adam as a sinner. The Old Covenant according to Galatians 3 is -- obey and live. Which is what we see in Genesis 2 and 3.

Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

(Rom. 5:13) does not say "No sin- where there is no Law" . It says (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." It says just the opposite. Nice smoke screen.
Stranger

Sin in the world prior to Sinai -- for by definition "SIN IS transgression of the LAW".
"ALL sinned" - Romans 5:12-13.

Romans 3 tells us that ALL the WORLD even Adam - under the LAW - under the condemnation of sin.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin
.... ALL have sinned (Rom 3:23)

 

[gadar perets]

You can repeat your usual all you want. See again (Rom. 5:13-14) There was no law from Adam to Moses. When Abraham lived, there was no Law.

Is (Rom. 5:13-14) speculation?

Stranger

There was indeed law before Moses (Sinai). It was passed down orally and some were possibly written in the heart already. For example, Joseph knew it was wrong to commit adultery (Genesis 39:9) with Potiphar's wife which is why he fled from her. He knew it was a "sin against God". How did he know that unless it was written in his heart or God taught that to him directly or through someone else? There are many other laws spoken of in the OT as well (murder was forbidden even though we do not see a written law against it. How could Cain be punished for murdering Abel unless he knew beforehand that it was a sin against God and man?). Romans 5:13-14 is referring to the codified law that was written on stone tablets. Once they were written down for all to read, sin began to be imputed.

 

[bbyrd009]

There was indeed law before Moses (Sinai).

ty

 

[Episkopos]

We need to be careful here. Was it Abraham's faith or Abraham's faithfulness? Scripture tells us exactly which one it was.

...Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all... (Rom 4:16)

Faithfulness would follow, but Abraham is "the father" (progenitor and precursor) of all those who simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption.

It is correct to say that when we are justified we are "deemed righteous", as long as we make it clear that we are deemed thus because it is the righteousness of Christ -- the righteousness of God Himself -- which is imputed to the guilty and condemned sinner. And that is AMAZING GRACE!

It isn't imputed...that would mean that it was there already. The righteousness of God is a gift....not a human attribute. We are to seek God for it...so we can't already possess it until it is given.

Abraham had faith/faithfulness in him. That is why it was imputed (attributed ) to him. You should be very careful how you understand these things.

The Hebrew word (and the Greek too) for faith is also faithfulness. One without the other is not in the definition.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace

But the written Law makes a difference. It makes men accountable to it. It makes men transgressors and not just sinners. That is what the Mosaic Law did.

(Rom. 5:13-14) "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

For Adam to Moses, no Law that made man accountable to it.

Stranger

Yes.
What we need here is the definition of:
sin
transgression
iniquity

I'm going to start a thread on this later when I'm home...
(unless you care to).

 

[Stranger]

See Romans 4:15 - "where there is no Law there is no SIN" Romans 5:13
See Romans 5:12 - there WAS SIN starting with Adam. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world
See 1 Tim 2:14 - SIN starting with Eve
See Genesis 4 - SIN even at the time of Cain
see 1 John 3:4 - SIN IS (by definition) "Transgression of the LAW" even in the NT
Sin is not imputed where there is no law - and so

More Bible details... less creative writing please.

These are basic Bible facts agreed to by C.H. Spurgeon, Baptist Confession of Faith, Westminster Confession of Faith etc.

Essentially every Christian group on planet Earth admits to this basic fact about the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God written on the heart in the OT - starting in Eden.

Consider paying attention to the "Bible details"



Yes - chapter and verse -- I think we can all see that.

(Romans 4:15 and 1 John 3:4 and Rom. 5:13-14) say just opposite of what you prefer.

Sin existed before the giving of the law on stone Law, but law in the form of God's WORD existed before "writing on stone" thus SIN existed before the formal "writing on stone". . That is why death reigned. It reigned over them that were under the old covenant "obey and live" and "Sin IS transgression of the LAW".

As for "obedience" to LAW, and COMMANDMENTs and STATUTES before the "writing on stone" of God's Word well - Genesis 26 says it all.

Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

(Rom. 4:15) doesn't say that. It says, "where no law is, there is no transgression". Neither does (Rom. 5:13) say that. It says, "until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law"

(1 John 3:4) "sin is the transgression of the law." When there is Law.

(Rom. 5:14) is not talking about death reigning over them who were under the Mosaic Law. It is talking about death reigning over them from Adam to Moses who were not under any law.

Abraham obeyed the only commandment given him which was leaving Ur. He kept the law, statutes, commandments, though he was under no law statutes or commandments, because he obeyed God. (Gen. 26:3) is given as a rebuke to Isaac as he was trying to go to Egypt. God then assures him that the Covenant will be passed and established with him, but only because of Abraham's obedience. Not his.

And we have seen how obedient Abraham was. Passing Sari off. Not once but twice. Going down to Egypt and picking up an Egyptian slave whom he would have a child by. God needed his help. Then, not believing God at all concerning the promise of Isaac. What commandments, statutes, laws, was Abraham breaking there?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

duplicate

 

[Stranger]

death spread to all men, because all sinned
"SIN IS transgression of the Law"

No text says " Adam did not sin".
"death spread to all men, because all sinned" -- Romans 5:12

No one lived before Adam so as to sin before Adam and to "impute sin" to Adam as his parent.

Adam was created under the Old Covenant - "obey and live" as Genesis 2 and 3 point out. Adam sinned... Adam died... "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Adam sinned, Adam died... Sin IS (by definition) transgression of the law.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
Adam sinned - Romans 5

LAW existed - and the Old Covenant condemned Adam as a sinner. The Old Covenant according to Galatians 3 is -- obey and live. Which is what we see in Genesis 2 and 3.

Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”



Sin in the world prior to Sinai -- for by definition "SIN IS transgression of the LAW".
"ALL sinned" - Romans 5:12-13.

Romans 3 tells us that ALL the WORLD even Adam - under the LAW - under the condemnation of sin.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin
.... ALL have sinned (Rom 3:23)

Adam was not created under any old covenant. There was no covenant when he was created. He later was placed under a law concerning the garden. Yes, then when Adam sin, his sin was a transgression. Because he sinned against law. That is the whole point Paul is making then in (Rom. 5:14) "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,..."
Death reigned because all were sinners. Even though they were not under law.

The Old Covenant, which is the Mosaic Covenant was not what Adam was under.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Yes.
What we need here is the definition of:
sin
transgression
iniquity

I'm going to start a thread on this later when I'm home...
(unless you care to).

That will be fine. I will let you start it. I will participate when I can.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam was not created under any old covenant. There was no covenant when he was created. He later was placed under a law concerning the garden. Yes, then when Adam sin, his sin was a transgression. Because he sinned against law. That is the whole point Paul is making then in (Rom. 5:14) "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,..."
Death reigned because all were sinners. Even though they were not under law.

The Old Covenant, which is the Mosaic Covenant was not what Adam was under.

Stranger

Adam was under the Edenic Covenant... which was conditional on him obeying God, which he did not do.

Then came the Adamic Covenant which was unconditional....Genesis 3:17, the foreshadowing of Jesus.

 

[Episkopos]

Adam was under the Edenic Covenant... which was conditional on him obeying God, which he did not do.

Then came the Adamic Covenant which was unconditional....Genesis 3:17, the foreshadowing of Jesus.

It appears as if you are trying to look at this from too close...you need to step back and see the continuity of God's ways. Salvation is conditional. God makes promises...but they are to the faithful....or the ...whomsoever wills. There is a part that God does and there is the right response that God is waiting for in us.