Eternal Security

[gadar perets]

As I said, Jesus' violation of the sabbath had to do with commanding the lame man to pick up his bed and walk. And while that was a violation of the letter of the sabbath law (i.e. thou shalt not do any work) by proxy, in the teaching of Jesus; Christ was blameless because He is the Lord of the sabbath days; and His priesthood was after the power of an endless life.

So tell me jbf, is it work to pick up a thread off the floor? How about your son's toy? How about a book? How about a flimsy, light weight mat? Are you no different than the Pharisees and their burdensome traditions they added to the Sabbath? Again, had Yeshua caused anyone to sin, Yeshua would no longer be sinless.

 

[amadeus]

He has given this task to anyone who understands sound doctrine

Has he? Who are those who understand other than those led by the Holy Ghost as they walk in the Spirit? Does every Bible student understand?

and who encounters doctrine that is false (Jude 1:3-4).

Quite a call to make! Have you found a single person who has never lied about the things of God, even it was done in ignorance?

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written [Psalm 116:11], That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Rom 3:4

When I was a Catholic I thought I was right and lied to people ignorantly. When I was in the UPC I thought I was right and lied to people ignorantly. Have I lied to people ignorantly since then? Without a doubt.

Who among us always knows the mind of God and always speaks it?

 

[justbyfaith]

So tell me jbf, is it work to pick up a thread off the floor? How about your son's toy? How about a book? How about a flimsy, light weight mat? Are you no different than the Pharisees and their burdensome traditions they added to the Sabbath? Again, had Yeshua caused anyone to sin, Yeshua would no longer be sinless.

It was a violation of the sabbath to pick up sticks according to the Old Testament, even a violation worthy of death.

 

[gadar perets]

More carnal reasoning (because it is based in a desire to refuse essential doctrine of the scriptures).

God is indeed the only Saviour; and the face that He sent saviours to help deliver Israel in time of need who were filled with His Spirit (and therefore He was the Saviour in those instances) does not mean that when it says Jesus is our Lord and Saviour; and that there is no Saviour besides Jehovah: that Jesus isn't Jehovah. It is a sign to us that this may very well be who He is. It is evidence to us, if not absolute proof.

Willful rejection of truth.

You may have shown that Isaiah 43:11 isn't proof; but you haven't show that it isn't evidence. And Isaiah 43:11 isn't the only evidence that shows that Jesus is the LORD.

I totally disproved it as evidence that Yeshua is YHWH because the verse does not even mention Yeshua. It is 100% about his Father YHWH (unless, of course, you read him into the text as you do with all other OT texts).

(Can you say that out loud? "Jesus is the LORD.") 1 Corinthians 12:3.

I would never say that for two reasons. 1) The Saviour's name is not "Jesus" and 2) "the LORD" is a meaningless man made substitute for "YHWH". I can wholeheartedly say "Yeshua is Lord", but never "Yeshua is YHWH". BTW, 1 Corinthians 12:3 does not say "the LORD" in the KJV, but "the Lord". Here, the KJV errs again since "the" is not in the Greek text. So tell me, jbf, what gives you the right to write "the LORD" instead of "the Lord"? What gives you and the KJV translators the right to put "the" in the English text? In fact, regarding one of your previous posts where you say John 17:3 should read "even" instead of "and" as the KJV has it; how can you say that and yet also say the KJV is perfect?

 

[justbyfaith]

Has he? Who are those who understand other than those led by the Holy Ghost as they walk in the Spirit? Does every Bible student understand?

Quite a call to make! Have you found a single person who has never lied about the things of God, even it was done in ignorance?

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written [Psalm 116:11], That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Rom 3:4

When I was a Catholic I thought I was right and lied to people ignorantly. When I was in the UPC I thought I was right and lied to people ignorantly. Have I lied to people ignorantly since then? Without a doubt.

Who among us always knows the mind of God and always speaks it?

Since you evidently didn't read the verses referenced, I will quote them here:

Jude 1:3-4,

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me ton write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God even our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Willful rejection of truth.


I totally disproved it as evidence that Yeshua is YHWH because the verse does not even mention Yeshua. It is 100% about his Father YHWH (unless, of course, you read him into the text as you do with all other OT texts).


I would never say that for two reasons. 1) The Saviour's name is not "Jesus" and 2) "the LORD" is a meaningless man made substitute for "YHWH". I can wholeheartedly say "Yeshua is Lord", but never "Yeshua is YHWH". BTW, 1 Corinthians 12:3 does not say "the LORD" in the KJV, but "the Lord". Here, the KJV errs again since "the" is not in the Greek text. So tell me, jbf, what gives you the right to write "the LORD" instead of "the Lord"? What gives you and the KJV translators the right to put "the" in the English text? In fact, regarding one of your previous posts where you say John 17:3 should read "even" instead of "and" as the KJV has it; how can you say that and yet also say the KJV is perfect?

YHWH, the Father, is the Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21) and there is only one Lord (Ephesians 4:5). Think about how this truth applies to all of your arguments.

 

[gadar perets]

It was a violation of the sabbath to pick up sticks according to the Old Testament, even a violation worthy of death.

Numbers 15:32-36 was given as an example of what was taught in verses 30-31;

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken His commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
​

The man was not merely gathering sticks, but doing so presumptuously (an "in your face" highhanded act). He could care less about YHWH's commandment and reproached YHWH.

 

[amadeus]

Okay, I accept your exhortation; while keeping in mind that if someone is unaware of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ being an essential, and has not seen and/or understood the scriptures on the subject, then they fall into the category that you speak of.

But if they are aware, and choose not to believe the scriptures but rather their own carnal reasoning, then if they were to die failing to believe in Christ's Deity, it would be in their sins. For that is what the scripture teaches. And if someone were unaware of Jesus' claim, they have not heard the truth of the gospel in its fulness quite yet, and therefore when they hear the preaching they will have an opportunity to decide on the issue. And the fact that they are ignorant definitely does not mean that we ought not to preach to them the truth.

How fast do we attain maturity? In the flesh we may be able to answer, but how about in the Spirit? In the flesh I am 74 years old. A long time ago I attained physical maturity and started the downhill run. Spiritually once a person is born anew he should grow continuously toward God never starting a downward run, but do people always do what they should?

What happens to many people, I believe, who have received Jesus/Truth in a measure is they lose their love of truth and then Paul's writing here would apply to them:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11

This is trouble with many people in denominations or not. They think they are absolutely correct on a point of scripture and they cease to search. They think they are already seeing God face to face on that point even though really it may still be "as through a glass darkly". When they got that point it truly seemed to be and probably was a revelation from God. But, when they stood fast there no longer seeking His kingdom and His righteousness in everything they had already walked right into delusion. The trouble with a delusion is that the person in a delusion does not know that that is where he is.

There really is a way out of delusion but many people are unwilling to walk that pathway and love their delusions more than truth to the end of their course. If you don't understand this, consider what is the limit of our ability to move closer to God. The limit is certainly not God.

Also, I do not believe I have been accusing or condemning others in any fashion; for I have only been declaring what is the judgment of Him who judges righteously, that if anyone fails to understand and believe that He is the great I AM, they will die in their sins.

I am considered to be judgmental because I believe and proclaim this verse. However in so many other things, I am not judgmental as a person to my very core. When it comes to isssues where God has declared what is right and wrong, I will declare what God has spoken. For He has told us to keep judgment in Isaiah 56:1-2: and also that judgment is a thing that is according to His love in Philippians 1:9 (kjv).

So simple as that, is it? For God it is certainly simple but without God's help for whom will it not be complex?

 

[gadar perets]

Since you evidently didn't read the verses referenced, I will quote them here:

Jude 1:3-4,

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me ton write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God even our Lord Jesus Christ.

There you go again changing the KJV's supposedly perfect translation to suit your own needs.

"denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." KJV
​

You actually deny the real "Lord God" / "YHWH Elohim" by saying he is Jesus. I accept both of them as the KJV has it.

 

[gadar perets]

YHWH, the Father, is the Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). Think about how this truth applies to all of your arguments.

I believe exactly what both those verses say. "The Father" is the Lord of heaven and earth, NOT the Son.

 

[amadeus]

It is Scripture which determines what our doctrine is (or should be). That is what is stated in 2 Tim 3:16,17. It goes without saying that Scripture also tells us what our heart condition should be.

If we buy a foreign piece of machinery with the instructions written in Russian and we have no familiarity at all with the machine or the language, we are likely to run into a whole lot of trouble because we simply are unable to understand:

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:10-15

If all the Truth that man needs is in the scriptures, what good will it do him if he cannot understand the parables?

Is it not so with all of the scriptures? Without the Holy Spirit what will our study of the scriptures achieve?

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

 

[amadeus]

Since you evidently didn't read the verses referenced, I will quote them here:

I have read them many times over the years as well as when you referenced them here immediately before I replied. They don't change the situation.

Jude 1:3-4,
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me ton write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God even our Lord Jesus Christ.

So again do what you believe God has told you that you need to do. You are warning people and I am simply asking you to be certain that you definitely understand everything before you speak as if you do:

"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." I Peter 4:11

 

[faithfulness]

that you must also become elohim is another, only i don't hear anyone preaching it much.
the "I am He" of John 8:24 is "Son of Man" after all, Christ was not claiming any deity there, except maybe in English?

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Jn18:6

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus called Himself the Son of Man...in reference to the "Bar Enosh" found in Daniel ...which is in Aramaic....the language of Jesus.

Dan, 7:13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man (Bar Enosh) was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

 

[bbyrd009]

yes, and i doubt Daniel meant "Son of God" when he said "Son of Man" either

Why do people argue over scripture instead of simply discussing it and asking for help as needed?

why do that when you can be half right all of the time?
i don't think even asking for help would be necessary tbh, not that any believer would ever do that anyway;
just questioning one's own premises will lead one to Scripture that will give a fuller picture imo

 

[bbyrd009]

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Jn18:6

well, He was after all "Jesus the Nazarene," yes.
Wadr i don't see any claims to Divinity in that passage either

i don't get how literalists can hang their beliefs on such coy and ambiguous phrasing, and completely ignore other passages that are very clear?
Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God

i think ppl are just dying to worship Jesus, after they have sufficiently defined Him tbh

 

[bbyrd009]

But if they are aware, and choose not to believe the scriptures but rather their own carnal reasoning, then if they were to die failing to believe in Christ's Deity, it would be in their sins.

no it wouldn't, but you will be dying in your sins if you keep teaching that wadr. "Son of Man" speaks for itself i guess

For that is what the scripture teaches.

yet you cannot Quote it, that is just what Some Guy with pretty tassels on his shoes convinced you of first, right, and as you have already posted that is now an Absolute Truth in your mind, and even God Himself could not be heard by you now.

Shouldn't such an important truth be plainly stated, i mean you should be able to Quote "Christ is YHWH" in many places if your be...Absolute Truth were true, shouldn't you?

You no longer even have a belief, see? You have now been burdened with an Absolute Truth that you cannot even prove, except maybe in English, by squinting. a lot.

How do you address Two Greeks came to worship Jesus, and He hid from them?"
John 12:20

 

[gadar perets]

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Jn18:6

When the chief priests and Pharisees said they were seeking Yeshua of Nazareth, Yeshua said to them, "Ego eimi." At that they fell backward to the ground. It is not made clear why they fell to the ground, but what followed will make it clear that Yeshua was not claiming to be the "I AM."

After Yeshua's arrest, the Jews took him to Annas first (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Matthew 26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Yeshua to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn't find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn't bear false witness about what Yeshua said in John 8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days. Where were all those witnesses from John 8:58?

The point about Matthew 26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Yeshua say "Ego eimi." They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn't. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn't. Why not? Because it wasn't blasphemy, nor was it a stonable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Yeshua of Nazareth.

 

[amadeus]

yes, and i doubt Daniel meant "Son of God" when he said "Son of Man" either
why do that when you can be half right all of the time?

People don't for the most part change. Does anyone see similarities between the squabbles of today's Christians and those of the Jewish sects of Jesus' day? Most people either follow their leaders blindly and some supposed believers simply keep their mouths shut. Probably those who are really seeking more from God are the very few of which Jesus spoke here:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14

The "many" going the broad way may not be those who make no pretense at following God at all, but rather probably the majority of the 2 billion plus counted as Christian by the census takers.

The answer to the question of who Jesus really was or is really is included in the scriptures, but how many will jump on a person even here on this little forum for saying something against a most commonly accepted belief or doctrine?

If Jesus is the son or Son of God should it not be as Joseph was the son of god under Pharaoh in Egypt? If not, why not? As to the capital, or lack thereof, at the beginning of a word, who decided on them? Capitalization does not explain to us what God's truth is although it may explain what some man's is.

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou." Gen 41:40

i don't think even asking for help would be necessary tbh, not that any believer would ever do that anyway;
just questioning one's own premises will lead one to Scripture that will give a fuller picture imo

For a sincere person who wants to grow he may need to ask for help. Very young in the Lord the most common thing to do would be ask of some man. If the answer is wrong, the sincere searcher may miss it for a while, but eventually he should come to the answer that Jesus provided:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matt 7:7-11

Of course men who are believers or say they are believers may also say that they asked of God for the answers. Sometimes they may have done that but then they stopped asking and never came to realize that the answer received was incomplete. It comes back to, "How well does any man know God"? Ask someone other than a theologian or a well studied pew sitter to describe the trinity or Trinity of God and we can almost guess the most common answers. Faith? Yes, faith most likely in what they heard from some man or group of men.

 

[gadar perets]

Jesus called Himself the Son of Man...in reference to the "Bar Enosh" found in Daniel ...which is in Aramaic....the language of Jesus.

Dan, 7:13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man (Bar Enosh) was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

In case anyone did not notice, Yeshua (the Son of Man) came before the Ancient of Days (his Father YHWH). Yeshua did not come before himself, but before the Ancient of Days. Yeshua is not the Ancient of Days, nor is he YHWH. YHWH is the one true God that gave Yeshua his dominion and Kingdom.