Eternal torment and emotional conflict

[Critical_Thinker]

Does the teaching of eternal torment and the idea of your loved ones being tortured forever cause a conflict within your conscience?

 

[ATP]

Hell is eternal and also biblical (Mark 9:42-48/Rev 20:10) - Punishment is the result of being judged. Punishment involves consciousness. (Dan 12:2/Matt 25:46//Rev 20:12-15)

Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matt 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Mark 9:42-48 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44]b 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46]c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

- ATP

Does the teaching of eternal torment and the idea of your loved ones being tortured forever cause a conflict within your conscience?

No it doesn't.

 

[Critical_Thinker]

Hell is eternal and also biblical (Mark 9:42-48/Rev 20:10) - Punishment is the result of being judged. Punishment involves consciousness. (Dan 12:2/Matt 25:46//Rev 20:12-15)

Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matt 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Mark 9:42-48 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44]b 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46]c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

- ATP


No it doesn't.

So if you were given a vision of your loved one being tortured in hell, you wouldn't feel anything in your conscience?

 

[ATP]

So if you were given a vision of your loved one being tortured in hell, you wouldn't feel anything in your conscience?

We can never understand what heaven and hell are like in these mortal bodies, so we express ourselves by asking silly questions using carnal minds.

 

[logabe]

We can never understand what heaven and hell are like in these mortal bodies, so we express ourselves by asking silly questions using carnal minds.

You didn't answer the question. Why? Because it is difficult to answer it when it is your
daughter or son that is in question. If it is someone that you don't know, it becomes a
lot easier to say, "they had their chance and blew it"!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[ATP]

You didn't answer the question. Why? Because it is difficult to answer it when it is your
daughter or son that is in question. If it is someone that you don't know, it becomes a
lot easier to say, "they had their chance and blew it"!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

I did answer the question. God only grants us the experience of eternity in the afterlife after we die. If we don't experience it, how do we tell about it. I haven't died yet.

 

[Born_Again]

Okay, I'll dumb it down. If you have a son or daughter, does the thought of them being tortured bother you?

 

[KingJ]

Does the teaching of eternal torment and the idea of your loved ones being tortured forever cause a conflict within your conscience?

Yes. I am sane. I believe God is too. I believe most around me aren't.

We can never understand what heaven and hell are like in these mortal bodies, so we express ourselves by asking silly questions using carnal minds.

Of course 1 Cor 13:12 agrees with that. But ....eternal torture is not a silly question + God did give us working brains that can discern to the degree that using them to discern can aid us in escaping His judgment 1 Cor 11:31. So now, the only truth in your statement is that we can't fully grasp the extent of what will happen. Who here can grasp the Jewish lifestyle in Egypt for 200-430 years?????????? Was it all slavery?

What is clear about 1 Cor 13:12 and why it 'bats' against you is that it is evidence of God having nothing to hide. If we can grasp eternal torture as not a fitting punishment with the SAME brains we use to escape God's judgment....how much more will we be disgusted when we no longer see through a glass darkly?

God has got nothing to hide = God's punishment to those in hell > Geneva convention treatment of enemies!

Does the teaching of eternal torment and the idea of your loved ones being tortured forever cause a conflict within your conscience?

I just have one problem with this line. Torment and torture are different words. You are asking two questions here and disguising them as one. There is no escaping eternal regret / torment if you hate evil / God > loving Him Rom 12:9. Only God's peace that surpasses all understanding can ease torment.
This is how the unsaved have decided to treat those who helped / approved of the evil of throwing their kids into gas chambers.

Articles 11, 12, and 13 states that: "Food must be of a similar quality and quantity to that of the Belligerent's own soldiers, and POWs cannot be denied food as a punishment; A canteen selling local produce and products should be provided. Adequate clothing should be provided; and that sanitary service in camps should be more than sufficient to prevent epidemics."
Articles 14 and 15 covers the provision of medical facilities in each camp.
Articles 16 and 17 covers the provision of religious needs, intellectual diversions and sport facilities.
Articles 18 and 19 covers the internal discipline of a camp which is under the command of a responsible officer.
Articles 20, 21, 22, and 23 states that officers and persons of equivalent status who are prisoners of war shall be treated with the regard due their rank and age and provide more details on what that treatment should be.
Article 24 covers the rate of pay of prisoners of war.
Articles 25 and 26 covers the responsibilities of the detaining authority when transferring prisoners from one location to another. Prisoners must be healthy enough to travel, they must be informed to where they are being transferred; and their personal possessions, including bank accounts, should remain accessible.

So, if the unsaved can do this, how much more us, how much more a God that can die for us...

I am only saddened because they will be separated from God's literal presence for all eternity.

I find comfort in the fact that God loves His enemy at a level I cannot grasp Matt 5:44. Not that God punishes his enemy with torture at a level I cannot grasp. I think many are in the wrong religion. I expect satan to eternally torture.

 

[stephenleonard]

My heart would break for them. If I had a vision of someone close to me such as my mother burning in Hell naturally by human nature you would be upset. There is no doubt whatsoever about that. However, as life goes on, assuming that you are still firmly planted in your faith you will be able to put yourself in God's shoes. It is sort of like when you have a Father who says they are going to spank their child if they do something and then they do it. The Father doesn't want to do it, but he respects and loves the child enough not to lie to it. So yes it would trigger a emotional feeling of sorrow for that person, but the Holy Spirit was given to us to help us in times of need and trouble. God says in his word he will never give us anything that he thinks that we cannot bare (I'm paraphrasing of course) in 1 Corinthians 10:13. Does that make sense?

 

[ATP]

We see here that the wicked will be destroyed, will be no more, perish, consumed, devoured, die, stubble and ashes under our feet etc..

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NIV

When you appear for battle, you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace. The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath, and his fire will consume them. Psalm 21:9 NIV

For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. Psalm 37:9-10 NIV

But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke. Psalm 37:20 NIV

But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked. Psalm 37:38 NIV

May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God. Psalm 68:2 NIV

But may sinners vanish from the earth and the wicked be no more. Praise the LORD, my soul. Praise the LORD. Psalm 104:35 NIV

"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. Malachi 4:1 NIV

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 4:3 NIV

Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. These are not coals for warmth; this is not a fire to sit by. Isaiah 47:14 NIV

The LORD watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy. Psalm 145:20 NIV

For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. Ezekiel 18:4 NIV

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. Ezekiel 18:20 NIV

Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been. Obadiah 1:16 NIV

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 2 Peter 3:10 NIV

- ATP

 

[pom2014]

Heaven, earth, hell and the enemy (including those that side with the enemy) will all pass away.

New heaven, new earth, new bodies for the those that see it.

Slate wiped clean.

No more pain, done. Back to the way it was meant to be. Restoration of the design.

 

[ATP]

Also, John tells us that the lake will be in existence and active with fire prior to the Millennium (Revelation 19:20). This means it will be fully in evidence before the second advent of Christ to this earth.

 

[logabe]

Also, John tells us that the lake will be in existence and active with fire prior to the Millennium (Revelation 19:20). This means it will be fully in evidence before the second advent of Christ to this earth.

I was an evildoer before I accepted Jesus as my Savior. I would love for all people to accept Jesus in this
Age of Grace, but that's not the plan of God. Let's get to the point.

Where did my evil side go?

It was burned up in the Holy Ghost and FIRE. Did you get that?

Jeremiah said, it is like a FIRE shut up in my bones. What was like a FIRE. God's WORDS!!! Did you get that?
God's Spirit mixed with His WORD destroys the old man Adam by FIRE. IN other words, the Holy Spirit brings
revelation to God's Word that destroys the unbelief that a person has been taught in his/her lifetime. The old
man is destroyed in the FIRE of His Word and the New Man that is created in Christ Jesus, which is, the WORD
made flesh, that begins to take over your life to live a life of righteousness.

Jesus said, unless a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, the old man must die (perish), so the new man
can be renewed day after day, and bare fruit, which is, pleasing to God.

So when Daniel is talking about a river of fire coming from the throne in Dan. 7:9-10, we can understand it as
God's Words coming like a stream of FIRE from God's Throne. That FIRE became a Lake of FIRE in Revelations
that would correct the multitudes in the Ages to come. In essence, it would destroy the evil one inside of every
human being that was taught the truth of God. Isa. 2: 3-4 says,

3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain
of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the
word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many
peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into
pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they
train for war anymore.

God is a consuming FIRE!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Ruth]

Does the teaching of eternal torment and the idea of your loved ones being tortured forever cause a conflict within your conscience?

Not a conflict, but major sorrow, as it is with Christ also, for He died for all the worlds sins, they have a way out of damanation they have a way to eternal life, but many refuge....I cry and mourn for my loved ones who won't except Christ...and God does also.

 

[KingJ]

We see here that the wicked will be destroyed, will be no more, perish, consumed, devoured, die, stubble and ashes under our feet etc..



- ATP

You can be forgiven for your belief. But I find it very fascinating how so many Christians believe in eternal torture and annihilation as ''just'' when even the unsaved who HATE their enemy, don't.

Granted, God can do whatever He wants. Rom 9 is crystal clear on that. He can annihilate even us Christians. This makes His sacrifice for us on the cross so overwhelming. He is giving us confidence in His love for us.

Believing those who '''barely''' don't make it deserve 'annihilation' vs those that barely make it...eternal bliss...is a very fascinating belief indeed. Annihilation vs eternal bliss for BARELY making it to heaven..... :huh: :blink:

Would you do that to YOUR enemy ATP? With your renewed Christian heart....now renewed to be more like God's 2 Cor 5:17, more capable of loving enemies Matt 5:44....like God's....

The Pharisees knew scripture well. But they did not know God. That is why they did not recognize God of the universe standing with them. Likewise Calvinists know Rom 9 well. But miss the rest of scripture in knowing what in fact God does decide to do with His power. Can and Do are different words. Likewise.......annihilationists grasp certain scriptures.....but who God is and the rest of scripture.....I believe is flying over your head on this subject .
You are not even considering the other 90% of scripture to shed light on the scriptures you quote. How is that any different from Calvinists basing their whole belief on Rom 9 and twisting other scripture to accommodate their assumptions of that chapter? It is an epic hermeneutics fail.

My bible tells me that Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified Him as they did not know what they were doing. My bible tells me that God of the universe loved demons more then pigs, and He loves pigs. My bible tells me that all will be judged according to their deeds. My bible tells me that we must give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. My bible tells me that God is just. My God given brain tells my that annihilation is not just. My bible tells me that God will make me smarter in heaven, not dumber. My bible paints the picture of God having nothing to hide because He is good and just. That is why I say that your belief.... for a Christian is indeed very fascinating.

Do you realize the odds of YOU making it to heaven? You and I could EASILY end up in hell...to our surprise....according to scripture. Once upon a time there was an ATP and KingJ, now they are no more. They leave behind their loved ones to eternally grieve their loss. ''We serve a good and wonderful God'', cough cough.

I propose we little ants make NO final assumptions on what God is going to do next Job 9:3. Just look at where the evidence points. So far, the evidence current and past suggests that God has not tortured anyone, is longsuffering and loved us all that He (God of the universe) made Himself a Lamb to the slaughter (at mercy of evil hands) for us (red ANTS). When we can do that for our enemy, then we are qualified to comment on what awaits God's enemies in hell.

Heaven, earth, hell and the enemy (including those that side with the enemy) will all pass away.

New heaven, new earth, new bodies for the those that see it.

Slate wiped clean.

No more pain, done. Back to the way it was meant to be. Restoration of the design.

No more pain? You clearly have not thought much about this. My dad is an atheist. He is daily upset with God. If he goes to hell for an eternity of fire or is annihilated, I will feel that loss / scar / pain for eternity. The ONLY way I won't is if God MAKES ME DUMB / REMOVES MY BRAINS and my heart or God is NOT going to be unjust / harsh on him. Our belief on hell makes us quite cold. ''Won't have any pain for those burning daily in hell / for our child that was a thief but gets annihilated like he was a serial killer''. I can't wait to be in heaven with such loving Christians ....

New body = angelic type bodies? We all suddenly ''perfect''? as in...we always desire to be with God? Like we cease being the human race? Always smiling and happy...nobody grumpy? We stay humans / the human race. We are just forever sanctified because of the depth of intent sunk to when we repented. Kind of like a marriage. Kind of like James 5:20. 'Put on immortality' does not equate to us being made eternal ...''angels''. You can be forgiven for the assumption though. But lets face reality. Assumption = assumption. Reality = free will today to NOT worship / go to church, free will tomorrow to NOT worship, visit God.

 

[Phoneman777]

For me, there is no greater example of warped reasoning than the idea that Jesus took upon Himself my punishment of eternal torment without Him having to actually endure it for me. I've heard all the arguments:

• Jesus suffered an eternity of torment in those few hours that He was actually in that place of torment...
• Jesus' spotless record allowed Him to be credited with having suffered an eternity of torment while having only spent a limited time in that place of torment...
• Jesus' spotless record made Him not subject to the penalty of eternal torment to which we sinners are subject, therefore, it was not necessary for Him to suffer eternal torment in order to deliver us from that place of torment...

The wages of sin is the Second Death, where those condemned to it will feel for the first time in their existence the abject hopelessness of being separated from the Father by their sins just before they pass out of existence. How do we know? Because it's exactly what Jesus endured on the Cross.

PREEMPTIVE ARGUMENTS:​

1) Jesus did not "go to a fiery hell and preach to sinners out of it". Peter was referring to the preaching of the Holy Spirit through Noah to the Antediluvians in the "prison house of sin" - the bondage to which the Bible repeatedly refers that imprisons all who are slaves to sin, as in the case of those who died in the Flood.

2) Jesus' soul that "was not left in hell" was not some disembodied Jesus poltergeist that went to the flaming hell fires of "gehenna". It was the hell of "hades" - the "place of the dead" or "the grave" in which His soul was not left. When God gathered His Spirit from Jesus' humanity on the Cross, He ceased to be a living soul and became a dead soul, or a soul that has ceased to exist, because the living soul can only exist as a consequence of the union of the Spirit of Life and the Body (Genesis 2:7 KJV). Of course, His divinity ever remained "from everlasting to everlasting" (Psalm 90:2 KJV). The saying "Jesus' soul was not left in hell" simply means that the humanity of Jesus did not remain in the grave as a dead soul which was the consequence of the broken union of the Spirit of Life and the Body which He suffered on the Cross.

3) Rich Man and Lazarus - It is not reasonable to insist that this passage - which is full of symbolism and contradiction to real experience - can be anything other than a parable.

If there are any other "proof" texts of the doctrine of Consciousness in Death, I'd be happy to answer them.

 

[ATP]

Do you realize the odds of YOU making it to heaven? You and I could EASILY end up in hell...to our surprise....according to scripture.

If you're born again, you're not going to hell KingJ, and hell is not eternal.

What are your thoughts on Gehenna Hell, the Valley of Hinnom one day being made holy to the Lord. Jer 31:38-40 NIV.

 

[KingJ]

If you're born again, you're not going to hell KingJ, and hell is not eternal.

What are your thoughts on Gehenna Hell, the Valley of Hinnom one day being made holy to the Lord. Jer 31:38-40 NIV

When the new Jerusalem comes that space needs to go. The way I understand it is Gehenna due to it being a valley of the dead / buried criminals is symbolic of the lake of fire and hell. Hades / Sheol are a current abode of the dead which will be thrown into lake of fire.

You and I cannot be confident in our salvation until we actually standing face to face with Jesus 1 Cor 10:12. Paul never says ''continue to work out your salvation in ''confidence'' ....he says 'in fear and trembling' Phil 2:12.

 

[ATP]

You and I cannot be confident in our salvation until we actually standing face to face with Jesus 1 Cor 10:12. Paul never says ''continue to work out your salvation in ''confidence'' ....he says 'in fear and trembling' Phil 2:12.

You misquoted 1 Cor 10:12. The scripture is not talking about losing your salvation. You ignored verse 13. (1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be temptedd beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.)

 

[stephenleonard]

I do agree with ATP. You did misquote that piece of text, but why would you use that verse? I'm just curious, that is one of the weakest verses that does support your argument.