Ever Consider This?

[skypair]

It occurs to me that, if we are God's spiritual offspring (and we are, Acts 17:28-29) .. and if God created not one evil angel (they turned on God themselves) .. why do we think that God creates His offspring (us) totally depraved by original sin and born spiritually "dead" in sins???

Does it not appear to everyone that God creates us spiritually and our parents only contribute the flesh .. the body for the spiritual creation of God? Is it not also just like the angels that some will follow a fallen "head angel" who says that God is evil?

skypair

 

[bbyrd009]

hmm, i think they "say"
"i will be like God,"
not so much "God is evil."

good vein tho imo, i would be reflecting upon "denying one's birthright" here
imagining tomorrows based upon expectations, and the like
making up your mind about them even

 

[Willie T]

Not being a Calvinist, I really don't consider us born "completely depraved." Born with a leaning toward selfish pride, "Yes", but not totally depraved. If we were, we would feel no conscience, and would not have recognized God when He called.

 

[Nomad]

Not being a Calvinist, I really don't consider us born "completely depraved." Born with a leaning toward selfish pride, "Yes", but not totally depraved. If we were, we would feel no conscience, and would not have recognized God when He called.

That's not what Calvinists mean by 'total depravity.' It's an unfortunate term that leads to much confusion on what we actually believe. Total depravity does not mean that we are as sinful as we can possibly be. It simply means that through Adam's fall we are born sinners by nature and at enmity with God. Many today prefer the term 'total inability' or even 'radical corruption.' Total depravity is nothing more than the Reformed/Calvinistic view of Original Sin.

 

[skypair]

It simply means that through Adam's fall we are born sinners by nature and at enmity with God. Many today prefer the term 'total inability' or even 'radical corruption.' Total depravity is nothing more than the Reformed/Calvinistic view of Original Sin.

Of course, all of those are made up phrases that don't get us any closer to the truth of scripture .. that man is the spiritual offspring of God such that man desires to find God (Acts 17:26-27) and has in his heart and conscience an innate understanding of the law (Ro 2:14-15). To this, the only thing that the parents contribute are the PHYSICAL attributes. Man's only "inability" is what we call "ignorance" .. they are uninformed by the Spirit of the scriptures or in creation, Ro 1:18-20.

skypair

 

[Windmillcharge]

why do we think that God creates His offspring (us) totally depraved by original sin and born spiritually "dead" in sins???

God created Adam perfect, but he rebelled and we inherited his bias to sin.
Jesus's incarnation was a 'Normandy landing' to reconquor what the devil had stolen.

Does it not appear to everyone that God creates us spiritually and our parents only contribute the flesh .. the body for the spiritual creation of God

God created both the physical and the Spiritual. It isn't helpfull to try and separate the two, if only because we will one day have a new physical body.

 

[Nomad]

Of course, all of those are made up phrases that don't get us any closer to the truth of scripture .. that man is the spiritual offspring of God such that man desires to find God (Acts 17:26-27) and has in his heart and conscience an innate understanding of the law (Ro 2:14-15). To this, the only thing that the parents contribute are the PHYSICAL attributes. Man's only "inability" is what we call "ignorance" .. they are uninformed by the Spirit of the scriptures or in creation, Ro 1:18-20.

skypair

Sorry but whatever the Bible says gets us to the truth regardless of the theological label we assign to that communication. Dismissing a clearly taught Biblical concept because you don't like its theological label is not a valid argument against it. The label 'Trinity' is case in point. The label is "made up" as you put it, but the concept it embodies is clearly taught.

Now let's turn to the real issue here -- 'Total Inability' and its extent. You offered Acts 17 as a text that supports the idea that man has the ability to seek God unaided by God. Your proof-text actually teaches the opposite. Let's look.

Act 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him...

Notice the text in bold. Here we have God aiding those he intends to save by ordaining when and where they live, thus bringing them into close proximity of the means of His saving grace. Your understanding of this text actually conflicts with other parts of Scripture. Let's look at a few examples.

Rom 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Lastly, you claim that the only thing that parents contribute to succeeding generations are physical attributes. This is incorrect. The innate corruption of man extends to his whole being, not merely his physical attributes. Paul clearly teaches that we are sinners by nature. Example:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

 

[Nomad]

.. and if God created not one evil angel (they turned on God themselves) .. why do we think that God creates His offspring (us) totally depraved by original sin and born spiritually "dead" in sins???

Because we have a 'federal head' (Adam), the angels did not.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

 

[skypair]

God created Adam perfect, but he rebelled and we inherited his bias to sin.

God created both the physical and the Spiritual. It isn't helpfull to try and separate the two, if only because we will one day have a new physical body.

God created Adam just like he created us — spiritual bodies. When Adam fell, He discovered that he was naked and it is this PHYSICAL aspect of man that Adam and Eve replicated onto all mankind.

Now when our bodies are gone to "dust," our spiritual body will go either to the great white throne judgment in the body/ghost* we have created for ourselves OR be raptured to the Bema seat of Christ for reward in the body that God has created in us through His Spirit living in us.

* Recall that in the Bible, when someone died, they "gave up the ghost." Ghost in the OT was either a) the soul or b) the spiritual body. Also, this explains with what body Jesus appeared after His resurrection. It was in His Holy Ghost body — which we receive when we repent unto salvation, Acts 2:38 KJV.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Because we have a 'federal head' (Adam), the angels did not.

Would God not have been their Federal Head? Or Lucifer? What image were they in that Lucifer could think that he could be God? And isn't that the same offer that Satan made to Eve? Isn't that the same thing we say when we decide to sin against the law of God?

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

I've discovered that these verses have to be read very carefully. By one man's trespass, all mankind now is aware of their flesh and the desires thereof. Indeed, spiritual bodies, like Adam's un-fallen body, "are as the angels" (Mt 22:30). These un-fallen bodies are what we receive from God. The OT would call them our "ghosts."

Now 5:19 talks only about many saying, too, that only "many were made sinners." That is because we are not created sinners, Nomad. God created us, like Adam, actually spiritually disposed to God .. desiring to "find" Him (Acts 17:26-27) and with His 'law written on their hearts [and consciences],' Ro 2:14-15.

skypair

 

[Windmillcharge]

God created Adam just like he created us — spiritual bodies

Where does it say that Adam was only Spirit?

Genesis talks about there being every living plant available for food. Spirit beings do not need to eat.

 

[skypair]

Where does it say that Adam was only Spirit?

Genesis talks about there being every living plant available for food. Spirit beings do not need to eat.

What I mean by spiritual body is akin to Jesus, Moses, and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration which I believe we will have in the New Earth. There will be a tree of life there, too. I believe the New Earth will be like Eden. And we, indeed, have such a spiritual body within our flesh. However, it is yet to see what that body will be like — like Jesus' transfigured body or like the spiritual body we create for ourselves according to our sin — not glorified by "naked."

skypair