Every rapture position is new

[Spiritual Israelite]

He has restricted me from using the Old Testament so that makes it a challenge.

I don't think he is doing that. If you have Old Testament scripture that you think the New Testament scriptures you posted are based on, then you certainly can show that. But, you have to do something to show that the NT authors were intending to reference those OT scriptures.

 

[Jericho]

You made the bold claims in the Op. The burden of proof is therefore with you. So far, you have presented no historic evidence. The first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must approve. So you have the floor.

It seems to me that the burden is on you. If you disagree with something I wrote, then it's up to you to disprove it.

Are you admitting that you just made a claim without being an authority on the topic and without doing much research to confirm it?

Why do I have to be an "authority" on a topic to talk about it? I'd wager none of us here are authorities on anything, yet we still voice our opinions. Even if I were an authority, you still wouldn't accept it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do I have to be an "authority" on a topic to talk about it? I'd wager none of us here are authorities on anything, yet we still voice our opinions. Even if I were an authority, you still wouldn't accept it.

You didn't provide any evidence to back up your claims in the original post. Why should we take you seriously at all when you didn't bother to do that? What was the purpose of your original post? Are you pre-trib? I'm wondering if you're trying to make people think that no one really taught pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib at all until more recent years, which is not true. Pre-trib is the view that only started being taught around 200 years ago. Few, if any, believed in that theory before that.

 

[WPM]

It seems to me that the burden is on you. If you disagree with something I wrote, then it's up to you to disprove it.



Why do I have to be an "authority" on a topic to talk about it? I'd wager none of us here are authorities on anything, yet we still voice our opinions. Even if I were an authority, you still wouldn't accept it.

You started a thread on a lie. You never researched it to see if it was true.

Are you going to admit that? Are you going to repent of that?

Or, is lying fine with you?

 

[WPM]

He has restricted me from using the Old Testament so that makes it a challenge.

I asked him to fix my truck because it would not start and only allowed him to use the car interior pages of the repair manual. He was not up to the challenge.

No, you have produced nothing from the Old Testament or the New Testament to support your claims.

 

[WPM]

We have seen someone make a claim about what the early church fathers taught before which was proven wrong and he later apologized and admitted that he didn't research the topic first. Now, we are seeing that again. I don't understand why people do that.

This is the very reason why I started to study this subject in depth - to establish the truth.

 

[ewq1938]

Nah, His second coming is actually when He land on the ground and takes over the world.

No, his arrival is first seen by all while he is in the air. Coming to the ground and other events are after his arrival. His first arrival was also not to the ground so no surprise that his second arrival is also not involving being on the ground at first.

What's up with the acronyms?

They are extremely common in biblical forums.

 

[Davy]

What was described above is what happens when Jesus returns and is not actually the rapture.
What you are referring to happens after the great tribulation

You don't realize your above statement is like a double-negative, in the sense of contradiction of terms?

In the Mark 13:27 description by Lord Jesus the 'rapture' (or being "caught up" on the day of His coming) is EXACTLY what He was talking about. You just saying it isn't is meaningless.

There is only ONE TIME when Jesus returns to gather His Church, and that is at the LAST DAY of this world, which of course is AFTER the great tribulation, just as He showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

The idea of Paul's being "caught up" in the "air" is about the change on the "last trump" that he taught of in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter. What change is that? The change of the saints still alive to the "spiritual body". A spirit body is not limited to the realm of a flesh body. That is HOW the saints still alive at Christ's future coming will be literally "caught up" into the "air", i.e., in their heavenly type body, and go with Jesus and the resurrected saints He brings with Him from heaven, to the Mount of Olives on earth in Jerusalem. It is high time that brethren understood about that future "spiritual body" change on the day of Christ's future coming.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You must be with the U-turn crowd that thinks Jesus appears in the air, believers go to meet Him, and immediately we come back to earth and bypass the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which take place in Heaven.

I'm looking forward to dining with Jesus and other believers in Heaven before the Father but you can skip the festivities if you want to.

 

[Davy]

Thank you for the comments, but if it were that simple, would we have so many disagreements about what it says?

It's each person's own decision who they want to listen to, either men and their doctrines, or to God in His written Word. God's written Word of when Christ's return and gathering of His Church will be is clearly... written of in His Word. There's NO excuses for not following it as written. So men's doctrines that create confusion are damnable doctrines, and are only designed for those who REFUSE to stay in God's Word as written.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You must be with the U-turn crowd that thinks Jesus appears in the air, believers go to meet Him, and immediately we come back to earth and bypass the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which take place in Heaven.

I'm looking forward to dining with Jesus and other believers in Heaven before the Father but you can skip the festivities if you want to.

Where do you think scripture teaches that the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven?

 

[ewq1938]

You must be with the U-turn crowd that thinks Jesus appears in the air, believers go to meet Him, and immediately we come back to earth

A real U-turn is your view that Jesus leaves heaven, arrives at the clouds of Earth and returns back to heaven.

and bypass the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which take place in Heaven.

The text does not say it happens in heaven. The context of the passage looks like it is held in the eternity, matching NJ coming down as rthe bride of Christ which happens in the eternity chapters of Rev.

I'm looking forward to dining with Jesus and other believers in Heaven before the Father but you can skip the festivities if you want to.

It cannot be "skipped". Either one is part of it or isn't. Disagreeing with you does not means someone doesn't get to be part of that supper.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

The pre-trib rapture was popularized by John Nelson Darby in 1830.

Precious friend, this is getting pretty old and stale, eh? God's Great Grace Departure Started In The Bible,
Given To Paul By Christ, For The Body Of Christ, In His Dispensation Of Grace, Which Will End with:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

 

[WPM]

Precious friend, this is getting pretty old and stale, eh? God's Great Grace Departure Started In The Bible,
Given To Paul By Christ, For The Body Of Christ, In His Dispensation Of Grace, Which Will End with:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

Where?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

A real U-turn is your view that Jesus leaves heaven, arrives at the clouds of Earth and returns back to heaven.

He's can be numerous places at one without ever leaving the side of the Father.

Jesus is mega powerful like that

Disagreeing with you does not means someone doesn't get to be part of that supper.

I guess some folks wanna skip supper with Jesus... them mashed tators are gonna be other worldly!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Precious friend, this is getting pretty old and stale, eh? God's Great Grace Departure Started In The Bible,
Given To Paul By Christ, For The Body Of Christ, In His Dispensation Of Grace, Which Will End with:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

Precious friend, there will be a rapture

It just won't be before the anti-christ is revealed to the world.

See ya later Precious friend!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Thank you for the comments, but if it were that simple, would we have so many disagreements about what it says? Would there be so many different denominations? The thing is, it tells us what we "need" to know, but it doesn't tell us everything we "want" to know. Even Paul admits, "We see through a glass, darkly." There are certain grey areas, and that is the place where doctrines and theologies are born.

There is no disagreement in scripture.
All the "postrib rapture talk" as well as the "pre or post wrath " talk...EVERY ONE OF THEM,omits or changes verses

ONLY pretrib rapture fits.
Ask ANY of them to post a verse pointing to postrib/ or post wrath position that is BACKED by scripture.
I have been in this debate for over 40 yrs.
They ALL, with the exception of pretrib rapture, can not, reconcile my verses.
Watch their replies.
They LITERALLY can not debate me.
EVERY one of them will resort to personal attacks.
Never fails.

What is ACTUALLY going on, is the dynamic of about half of the church hates the IDEA of a pretrib rapture, so they CENTER their entire deal under the "pillar" of " well we know the pretrib rapture doctrine is wrong, so now we will struggle against it"
That IS their doctrine, not that they have a case for their position, but they hate the IDEA of a pretrib rapture.
So they are actually "antipretrib rapture"
And 90% of their energy is in THAT DIRECTION.

Ask one of them to explain Rev 14:14.
Watch their reframing of it.
Same with Acts 1 " like manner".
Watch them sidestep the dynamic.
Then get them to unpack the virgin parable , but demand that EVERY COMPONENT be on the table, and NO CHANGES.
Either they will brazenly change it...or crickets.
Note that no postribber can unpack Jesus using Lot And Noah WITHOUT REFRAMING the analogy.
The words "before the flood " were Jesus big mistake,they will tell you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I don't have a pretrib rapture that I can show you. I can show you God's pretrib rapture.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

Paul Wilbur put those verses to song.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Precious friend, there will be a rapture

It just won't be before the anti-christ is revealed to the world.

See ya later Precious friend!

The AC can possibly be revealed ( not in power yet) and then, the rapture a week later.
That is still a pretrib rapture.

Or.....the AC can even take power and we get rounded up into huge out door compounds,
With the rapture happening while all us wise virgins start rising up, and foolish ( those mocking the pretrib rapture, are left behind.)

All the church, saints arrested together, then the incessant macking by postribbers," where is your stupid satanic Darby rapture doctrine now???"
Then we go up like Ole Noah, with the postribbers screaming and wailing and gnashing their teeth.
Their portion fulfilled by their very own words and hatred of us. They face the AC.
They still get to heaven, late the the marriage supper, balancing their severed heads with both hands. They get liquid food at the feast ,as their hands are busy holding their severed heads up.
They will ask for straws....and a mop.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You don't realize your above statement is like a double-negative, in the sense of contradiction of terms?

In the Mark 13:27 description by Lord Jesus the 'rapture' (or being "caught up" on the day of His coming) is EXACTLY what He was talking about. You just saying it isn't is meaningless.

There is only ONE TIME when Jesus returns to gather His Church, and that is at the LAST DAY of this world, which of course is AFTER the great tribulation, just as He showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

The idea of Paul's being "caught up" in the "air" is about the change on the "last trump" that he taught of in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter. What change is that? The change of the saints still alive to the "spiritual body". A spirit body is not limited to the realm of a flesh body. That is HOW the saints still alive at Christ's future coming will be literally "caught up" into the "air", i.e., in their heavenly type body, and go with Jesus and the resurrected saints He brings with Him from heaven, to the Mount of Olives on earth in Jerusalem. It is high time that brethren understood about that future "spiritual body" change on the day of Christ's future coming.

Not so fast.
The wise virgins ,in JESUS VIVID PRETRIB RAPTURE depiction ,went to the marriage IN HEAVEN . No battle anywhere in Jesus depiction.
So your deal is way way way off.