Every rapture position is new

[3 Resurrections]

As long as you are OK that this is your opinion, not Scripture teaching.

Errrr, not really my opinion. Scripture defines this status of the "FIRST-begotten" and "FIRST-born from the dead" titles as Christ being the FIRST to ever ascend to the Father in a glorified human body form. Psalms 2's prophecy about Christ's resurrection-day ascension compares with Paul's interpretation of that prophecy in Acts 13:32-34. "THIS DAY have I begotten thee" was God speaking directly to the newly-resurrected and ascended Christ in heaven that morning, the first day of the week.

Nobody had ever ascended to heaven to stand before God the Father before Christ was the first to do this. This gives Jesus Christ the pre-eminence that is due to Him alone. That is the entire symbolism of all the "first-born" rituals in the OT. They were all pointing forward in time to the First-born, First-begotten Christ who would make it possible for believers to also stand before their Creator, covered in Christ's imputed righteousness with Him as our Great High Priest mediator between God and man.

 

[IndianaRob]

"As in Adam, ALL die". "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die". Since I am "In Adam" as one of his descendants, my physical body will pass through the physical death process, but my spirit has already been given eternal life, which will be "present with the Lord"at my physical death. While in this life, the Holy Spirit within me is the "earnest of my inheritance" - my promised assurance that my mortal remains will eventually be raised to a changed, immortal and incorruptible life in the next resurrection event.

It is not appoint unto man once to SEE death.

I assume from your answer that yes, you believe you are going to see death?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Jeremiah 35:18-19 KJV
18) And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:
19) Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

That phrase about the Rechabites never lacking "a man to stand before me for ever" is not speaking of these Kenites being enabled to ascend to heaven. The descendants of the Rechabites are mentioned among the scribes in 1 Chron. 1:55 who came into Canaan when the Israelites entered the land. An honored position in Israel for the descendants of Rechab. Jonadab the son of Rechab also was at Jehu's right hand when they slew all the worshippers of Baal in 2 Kings 10:15 &23. A man of fervent zeal, which the Lord rewarded by His favor.

"As the Lord liveth, before whom I stand" was the prophet Elijah using the same kind of language. But Elijah was not announcing that he was then standing in heaven with God the Father. He was on earth, giving an oath to assure Ahab that he would see him that day.

 

[3 Resurrections]

It is not appoint unto man once to SEE death.

I assume from your answer that yes, you believe you are going to see death?

The Hebrews 9:27-28 text is speaking of the physical death process which Christ experienced ONCE only. All mankind is appointed to experience the same "ONCE to die" physical death process, just like Christ did.

Those who are the elect of God are given eternal life of the spirit while in this mortal existence. That spirit never dies. This is unlike the spirit of the wicked, whose soul and body are both destined to "perish".

The John 8:51 text about a man keeping Christ's saying who "shall never see death" is speaking of the spirit of that individual which has been given everlasting life - not his mortal body form, which is appointed to die the one time before it can be resurrected to a glorified immortal and incorruptible form.

 

[IndianaRob]

The Hebrews 9:27-28 text is speaking of the physical death process which Christ experienced ONCE only. All mankind is appointed to experience the same "ONCE to die" physical death process, just like Christ did.

Those who are the elect of God are given eternal life of the spirit while in this mortal existence. That spirit never dies. This is unlike the spirit of the wicked, whose soul and body are both destined to "perish".

The John 8:51 text about a man keeping Christ's saying who "shall never see death" is speaking of the spirit of that individual which has been given everlasting life - not his mortal body form, which is appointed to die the one time before it can be resurrected to a glorified immortal and incorruptible form.

You’re doing what most people do with most scripture when it doesn’t fit their doctrine.

John 8:51 is a stop sign to what you’re saying but you’re ignoring the stop sign.

Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

When you blow off the stop signs, you have 0 chance of coming to the truth.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You’re doing what most people do with most scripture when it doesn’t fit their doctrine.

John 8:51 is a stop sign to what you’re saying but you’re ignoring the stop sign.

I am not ignoring John 8:51. I am putting it alongside the rest of the Scriptures, with which it MUST reconcile. "And so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" is pretty clear that all mankind must pass through the physical death process as a result of sin, since "there is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not". "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." And so physical death of necessity passes upon all men as a result of sin, just as God promised Adam would happen if he disobeyed.

It is the elect of God which have eternal life of the spirit within that gives them the assurance that physical death of their bodies is not the period on the end of the sentence. "He shall never see death" was Christ speaking of this eternal life of the spirit within. The presence of the Holy Spirit itself within believers was given as a "pledge" or "earnest of our inheritance": the sign in this life of the eventual "redemption of our bodies" in a resurrection.

 

[IndianaRob]

I am not ignoring John 8:51. I am putting it alongside the rest of the Scriptures, with which it MUST reconcile. "And so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" is pretty clear that all mankind must pass through the physical death process as a result of sin, since "there is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not". "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." And so physical death of necessity passes upon all men as a result of sin, just as God promised Adam would happen if he disobeyed.

It is the elect of God which have eternal life of the spirit within that gives them the assurance that physical death of their bodies is not the period on the end of the sentence. "He shall never see death" was Christ speaking of this eternal life of the spirit within. The presence of the Holy Spirit itself within believers was given as a "pledge" or "earnest of our inheritance": the sign in this life of the eventual "redemption of our bodies" in a resurrection.

The greatest truths in the Bible are hidden in what is apparently contradictory statements like what we’re dealing with here.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

These two verse appear to contradict one another so let’s set all beliefs aside and just look at ways to make both of the verses be true without changing what each verse literally says.

How is it possible that every person has to die while at the same time a believer in Christ will never SEE death?

It only reconciles one way.

 

[ewq1938]

You’re doing what most people do with most scripture when it doesn’t fit their doctrine.

John 8:51 is a stop sign to what you’re saying but you’re ignoring the stop sign.

Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

There are different kinds of death. The death spoken of here is the second death. It is not saying Christians can avoid the first death, sdeath of the mortal body. Christians have been dying that death and continue to.

These two verse appear to contradict one another so let’s set all beliefs aside and just look at ways to make both of the verses be true without changing what each verse literally says.

How is it possible that every person has to die while at the same time a believer in Christ will never SEE death?

It's very very simple actually. All die the first death, not all die the second death.

 

[IndianaRob]

There are different kinds of death. The death spoken of here is the second death. It is not saying Christians can avoid the first death, sdeath of the mortal body. Christians have been dying that death and continue to.




It's very very simple actually. All die the first death, not all die the second death.

I didn’t see the word second in that verse. Did you put that in there when I wasn’t looking?

A little leaven leaven’s the whole lump.

The first death is the condition all of us are born into. The second death is the exit from this world to the next. A saved person is pulled out of here without seeing that death. An unsaved person is not pulled out, they experience all the pains and horrors of death and go straight to the lake of fire.

God showed us through Stephen how this works. How much more proof do you guys need?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Here is that same passage in the LXX. "And it came to pass, when the Lord was going to take Eliu with a whirlwind as it were into heaven, that Eliu and Elisaie went out of Galgala."

And later in verse 11 of the same chapter in the LXX..."And it came to pass as they were going, they went on talking; and, behold, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and it separated between them both; and Eliu was taken up in a whirlwind as it were into heaven."

So, to all appearances for Elisha at ground level, Elijah seemed to go "as it were into heaven", but was merely transported through the skies elsewhere to another location on earth where he wrote that letter in 2 Chronicles 21:12 to King Jehoram some 10 years or so later. This interpretation of Elijah's whirlwind transport into the skies to be taken to another location on earth agrees with the later statement of Christ in John 3:13, that, as of that time, "NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." The Scriptures must agree with each other, without contradictions.

Nope.
You totally invented all of that

It says twice that Elijah went up to heaven.
You simply made up that "translated bodily to another location on earth"

Clever twisting of God's word.

Ahem...the Hebrew interlinear is available to everyone.
You are so busted.
God declared it twice in His Word.
Your doctrine is far fetched and gross error.
That is why you need those verses changed.

 

[rebuilder 454]

"As in Adam, ALL die". "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die". Since I am "In Adam" as one of his descendants, my physical body will pass through the physical death process, but my spirit has already been given eternal life, which will be "present with the Lord"at my physical death. While in this life, the Holy Spirit within me is the "earnest of my inheritance" - my promised assurance that my mortal remains will eventually be raised to a changed, immortal and incorruptible life in the next resurrection event.

What clever dismissal do you have for Enoch?
Was the bible wrong about him also?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Nope.
You totally invented all of that

It says twice that Elijah went up to heaven.
You simply made up that "translated bodily to another location on earth"

Please don't misquote me. I never wrote that Elijah was "translated" to another location on earth. I wrote that Elijah was taken by the whirlwind into the skies (which is the first "heaven" of this earth's atmosphere - as opposed to the third heaven where God dwells). I wrote that he was "transported", to another location on earth where he wrote that 2 Chron. 21:12 letter to King Jehoram some 10 years after his being caught up into the skies by the whirlwind. Letters are not written by the prophets in heaven and sent to earth by angelic postal service. You have yet to address the problem of just how Elijah would have been able to write this letter to King Jehoram from heaven, some 10 years later.

You know, this kind of transport happened once more in the NT with Philip the evangelist in Acts 8:39-40. The Spirit caught Philip away so that the eunuch saw him no more, but Philip was then found at Azotus in another location on earth, just like Elijah.

Ahem...the Hebrew interlinear is available to everyone.
You are so busted.
God declared it twice in His Word.
Your doctrine is far fetched and gross error.
That is why you need those verses changed.

I did not change the verses about this Elijah-and-the-whirlwind event. I quoted the LXX verbatim from Brenton's Septuagint. It says that Elijah was taken "AS IT WERE into heaven". In other words, Elijah went up into the first heaven of the earth's atmosphere - not that he went up to the third heaven into God's presence. This wasn't possible for anyone to do until the ascended Christ had FIRST opened up a way for resurrected humanity to enter that temple in heaven and stand before God face to face. Scripture does not make Elijah the "FIRST-born" and the "FIRST-begotten" in this respect. That unique status belongs only to Christ Jesus for all time.

What clever dismissal do you have for Enoch?
Was the bible wrong about him also?

I have already written above that Enoch was the single individual ONLY who ever received a translation-type change of the body, so that he never passed through physical death. Scripture is very clear on this in Hebrews 11:5. God picked that lone man Enoch for this unique favor for a very special reason. I believe Enoch was the one who was later identified by the nickname of "Melchizedek" - whom Hebrews 7:3, 16 describes as having "no end of life " or "an endless life", which is exactly what Enoch was given once he was translated by God. Enoch I believe was the same man as Melchizedek, introduced to us in Psalms 110:4 as the superior "order of Melchizedek" in which the deathless high priest mediator, Christ Jesus, was established (and not according to the Levitical order). God only needed one man to establish this superior "order of Melchizedek". No other human was ever going to be given this type of "translation" change of the body without passing through physical death. Not even for the "rapture" of the resurrected saints, which has already happened back in AD 70.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please don't misquote me. I never wrote that Elijah was "translated" to another location on earth. I wrote that Elijah was taken by the whirlwind into the skies (which is the first "heaven" of this earth's atmosphere - as opposed to the third heaven where God dwells). I wrote that he was "transported", to another location on earth where he wrote that 2 Chron. 21:12 letter to King Jehoram some 10 years after his being caught up into the skies by the whirlwind. Letters are not written by the prophets in heaven and sent to earth by angelic postal service. You have yet to address the problem of just how Elijah would have been able to write this letter to King Jehoram from heaven, some 10 years later.

You know, this kind of transport happened once more in the NT with Philip the evangelist in Acts 8:39-40. The Spirit caught Philip away so that the eunuch saw him no more, but Philip was then found at Azotus in another location on earth, just like Elijah.


I did not change the verses about this Elijah-and-the-whirlwind event. I quoted the LXX verbatim from Brenton's Septuagint. It says that Elijah was taken "AS IT WERE into heaven". In other words, Elijah went up into the first heaven of the earth's atmosphere - not that he went up to the third heaven into God's presence. This wasn't possible for anyone to do until the ascended Christ had FIRST opened up a way for resurrected humanity to enter that temple in heaven and stand before God face to face. Scripture does not make Elijah the "FIRST-born" and the "FIRST-begotten" in this respect. That unique status belongs only to Christ Jesus for all time.


I have already written above that Enoch was the single individual ONLY who ever received a translation-type change of the body, so that he never passed through physical death. Scripture is very clear on this in Hebrews 11:5. God picked that lone man Enoch for this unique favor for a very special reason. I believe Enoch was the one who was later identified by the nickname of "Melchizedek" - whom Hebrews 7:3, 16 describes as having "no end of life " or "an endless life", which is exactly what Enoch was given once he was translated by God. Enoch I believe was the same man as Melchizedek, introduced to us in Psalms 110:4 as the superior "order of Melchizedek" in which the deathless high priest mediator, Christ Jesus, was established (and not according to the Levitical order). God only needed one man to establish this superior "order of Melchizedek". No other human was ever going to be given this type of "translation" change of the body without passing through physical death. Not even for the "rapture" of the resurrected saints, which has already happened back in AD 70.

The Hebrew interlinear is online.
IT DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING.

It just hit me why you need for Elijah to never go to heaven.
It just hit me.
That dynamic interferes with the false logic of your doctrine about the 2 witnesses in Rev that are killed and resurrected during the trib.
.....and that the ot saints were held in paradise until the resurrection of Jesus, then were resurrected and taken to heaven.

See, that is the problem with where that false doctrine takes you, because now you need a Elijah to never have been carried up in a chariot of fire with horses of fire into heaven.

You NEED HIM to be taken anywhere but heaven.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Hebrew interlinear is online.
IT DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING.

I told you that I was quoting verbatim from Brenton's Septuagint. Exactly. No alterations from what that version states. It says twice that Elijah was taken "AS IT WERE into heaven". Remember, in this Brenton's Septuagint, this Elijah account is found in IV Kings 2:1 and 11. Perhaps you are simply looking in the wrong place.

It just hit me why you need for Elijah to never go to heaven.
It just hit me.
That dynamic interferes with the false logic of your doctrine about the 2 witnesses in Rev that are killed and resurrected during the trib.
.....and that the ot saints were held in paradise until the resurrection of Jesus, then were resurrected and taken to heaven.

See, that is the problem with where that false doctrine takes you, because now you need a Elijah to never have been carried up in a chariot of fire with horses of fire into heaven.

You NEED HIM to be taken anywhere but heaven.

Not sure why you are introducing the two witnesses of Revelation 11. Those two former high priest witnesses, (Ananus ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel), who "stood before the God of the earth" in that high priesthood role, were murdered during the Idumean attack on Jerusalem in either AD 67 or 68 during those "great tribulation" years from AD 66-70. Those two men also, just like Elijah, were not to be taken into God's presence into the third heaven until the temple in heaven was opened up when the last 7th plague had been poured out (according to Revelation 15:8).

I do NOT believe that any resurrected OT saints were taken to heaven at the resurrection of Jesus. Again, as Revelation 15:8 states in no uncertain terms, access to heaven's temple for the bodily-resurrected saints was not allowed until the last 7th plague had been poured out, which was in AD 70.

You NEED HIM to be taken anywhere but heaven.

Please explain just how Elijah was going to write that 2 Chron 21:12 letter to King Jehoram from heaven, some 10 years after his whirlwind transport. This is a problem for you that you are still not addressing.

It is not MY "need" for Elijah to not be taken into God's presence in the third heaven. It is what Scripture requires. There is no way that anyone was going to precede Christ the "First-born" and the "First-begotten from the dead" arriving to stand before God in heaven in a glorified human form. Until humanity had a mediator established between God and man, no one was able to enter heaven and stand before God. The legal terms for that had to be established FIRST by the resurrected, ascended Christ Jesus becoming our Great High Priest FIRST. Until that point, humanity did not have a representative in heaven standing between us and God. Christ's blood sacrifice had to be offered FIRST by our Great High Priest Mediator on our behalf, to lay the legal groundwork for our acceptance before the Father.

 

[IndianaRob]

Elijah didn’t go to the “new heaven” where God is, he went to the “old heaven”, Abraham’s bosom. Same place every other believer went before Christ came.

 

[ewq1938]

I didn’t see the word second in that verse.

You didn't see the word "first" either. In fact, a lot of words are not in that verse, including no English words because it was written in Greek.

 

[ewq1938]

The first death is the condition all of us are born into.

No, we are born into mortal life which ends at our physical death., which is the first of two possible deaths.

The second death is the exit from this world to the next.

No, the first death is that. The second death is death of the body for a second time after having been resurrected which is known as the resurrection of damnation.

 

[IndianaRob]

You didn't see the word "first" either. In fact, a lot of words are not in that verse, including no English words because it was written in Greek.

Correct, that’s because a believer is not subject to any from of death we have eternal life.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please don't misquote me. I never wrote that Elijah was "translated" to another location on earth. I wrote that Elijah was taken by the whirlwind into the skies (which is the first "heaven" of this earth's atmosphere - as opposed to the third heaven where God dwells). I wrote that he was "transported", to another location on earth where he wrote that 2 Chron. 21:12 letter to King Jehoram some 10 years after his being caught up into the skies by the whirlwind. Letters are not written by the prophets in heaven and sent to earth by angelic postal service. You have yet to address the problem of just how Elijah would have been able to write this letter to King Jehoram from heaven, some 10 years later.

You know, this kind of transport happened once more in the NT with Philip the evangelist in Acts 8:39-40. The Spirit caught Philip away so that the eunuch saw him no more, but Philip was then found at Azotus in another location on earth, just like Elijah.


I did not change the verses about this Elijah-and-the-whirlwind event. I quoted the LXX verbatim from Brenton's Septuagint. It says that Elijah was taken "AS IT WERE into heaven". In other words, Elijah went up into the first heaven of the earth's atmosphere - not that he went up to the third heaven into God's presence. This wasn't possible for anyone to do until the ascended Christ had FIRST opened up a way for resurrected humanity to enter that temple in heaven and stand before God face to face. Scripture does not make Elijah the "FIRST-born" and the "FIRST-begotten" in this respect. That unique status belongs only to Christ Jesus for all time.


I have already written above that Enoch was the single individual ONLY who ever received a translation-type change of the body, so that he never passed through physical death. Scripture is very clear on this in Hebrews 11:5. God picked that lone man Enoch for this unique favor for a very special reason. I believe Enoch was the one who was later identified by the nickname of "Melchizedek" - whom Hebrews 7:3, 16 describes as having "no end of life " or "an endless life", which is exactly what Enoch was given once he was translated by God. Enoch I believe was the same man as Melchizedek, introduced to us in Psalms 110:4 as the superior "order of Melchizedek" in which the deathless high priest mediator, Christ Jesus, was established (and not according to the Levitical order). God only needed one man to establish this superior "order of Melchizedek". No other human was ever going to be given this type of "translation" change of the body without passing through physical death. Not even for the "rapture" of the resurrected saints, which has already happened back in AD 70.

Quote
"I did not change the verses about this Elijah-and-the-whirlwind event. I quoted the LXX verbatim from Brenton's Septuagint. It says that Elijah was taken "AS IT WERE into heaven". In other words, Elijah went up into the first heaven of the earth's atmosphere - not that he went up to the third heaven into God's presence."

That is weak.

Tons of supposition.
You are basing your doctrine on supposition
You admit t that Enoch was taken up into heaven and did not die but when it comes to Elijah you got a doctoral issue with that.

Further, you say that no man can go into heaven ahead of the resurrected Christ in His glorified body, and yet you admit that enoch did that very thing, but you say Elijah couldn't.
You hold one dynamic to a completely different standard than the other.
Which doesn't make any sense at all.


Concerning the chronology, that is beyond weak.
The Bible is not mental. It is a spirit book.

You are trying to figure it out mentally.

The supernatural nature of the bible is that it is seen through heaven, not men's brain power.

Jereboam get a letter from a man that has vanished.

Your immediate mental conclusion is that Elijah did not got to heaven.
That is anti bible.
Anyone can see it.

...but it sorta bolsters your doctrine, in that if the 2 witnesses in Rev are in fact Elijah and Enoch , (ahem...who never have died but are appointed to death by Gods word), that would bother your supposed 2nd Coming in AD 70 that we missed..eh???

Oh yeah, your doctrine vanishes by any future event of the gt.
That is the foundation...a SHAKY FOUNDATION....Of how you see the entire bible.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That is weak.

Tons of supposition.
You are basing your doctrine on supposition
You admit t that Enoch was taken up into heaven and did not die but when it comes to Elijah you got a doctoral issue with that.

Further, you say that no man can go into heaven ahead of the resurrected Christ in His glorified body, and yet you admit that enoch did that very thing, but you say Elijah couldn't.

Correction: NO, I never wrote that Enoch was allowed access to heaven and God's presence. NOBODY - not even Enoch - was allowed to do that before Christ did this on His resurrection-day ascension, when He became our consecrated Great High Priest. Until humanity had a representative High Priest on the throne which gave us imputed righteousness, none of humanity could make an appearance in heaven's realm in a face-to-face encounter with God. They would not have survived the experience. Christ had to FIRST prepare the way for resurrected humanity to do that later on.

There were no glorified, resurrected members of humanity allowed access into the temple in heaven until the 7 plagues had all been poured out. I am not basing this on supposition. I am basing it on this statement on Revelation 15:8. "And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

Enoch did not go into heaven when God "took" him. We are not told where God took him, but it certainly wasn't into heaven. He remained on this earth as the character nicknamed "Melchizedek". In the days when Hebrews 7 was being written Melchizedek was still living (Heb. 7:8). That is because Enoch was translated that he would not experience physical death, just as Melchizedek was described as having "no end of life" and "an endless life". How do you think the NT writers were able to quote Enoch so precisely? The man Enoch / Melchizedek was still around in those first-century days.

Enoch left this planet along with all the rest of the resurrected saints back in AD 70. Daniel 12:11-13 foretold the exact day this resurrection would happen (on the 1,335th day after those two prophesied events occurred back in AD 66). Enoch was one of the "living" saints who had "remained" on the earth until Christ bodily came back in AD 70. He was caught up into the clouds along with the newly-resurrected saints, to meet the Lord together in the air (per 1 Thess. 4). The "rapture" was for THEM back in the first century - not for us in our future at the final resurrection event yet to come.