Evolution: don't let Satan make a monkey out of you!

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RealFaith

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As the return of Jesus Christ draws near, more and more foolish beliefs are being accepted by the church. It is said that millions of Christians now accept evolution. Oh, I don't mean micro evolution, I mean macro evolution. You know, where a frog can turn ( or evolve) into a prince over millions of years, where male and female originated from monkey urine. Yes, macro evolution. This devilish lie is now accepted by millions of Christians. But here is my question:

In the gospel of Mark, Jesus confirms the creation of Adam and Eve. Obviously Jesus believed that Adam and Eve were literal people, created by God. Plus, the apostle Paul believed that we all inherited sin from Adam. So how can so many Christians believe the lie of macro evolution? Do they not believe what Jesus said? Does this not show what a bad state the church is in, to believe that humans evolved from animals and ignore what Jesus said about creation?
 

the stranger

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Many Christians struggle with "science proof" that scientist claim supports evolution. False information indeed, but is many other things pushed on the multitudes, many Christians try to make "science" match up with their belief in Jesus, yet letting "science" hold more input than the bible. Not wanting to sound "silly" or "stupid" around other "smart people" is why I believe this is now the case, however, it does seem is more evidence mounts against evolution, the tides are slowly starting to turn back.
 

IBeMe

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the stranger: tides are slowly starting to turn back
It's totally turned.
You now need tremendous faith (blind) to believe in evolution.

All previous theories of how life started have been rendered silly by the advancement of science.

There's currently no workable theory of how life could have started without God.

Harvard started "Origins of Life in the Universe Initiative" to address this embarrassment, around 2005.

"... my expectation is that we will be able to reduce this to a very simple series of logical events that could have taken place with no divine intervention." (David R. Liu, professor of chemistry and chemical biology, Harvard)

Note: They're looking for a "could have."
Currently, they don't have a "could have."
The way the Theory of Evolution works, once you have a "could have", it becomes a "fact."

That was 2005, and we're still waiting to hear from those folks.

Not only do they not have a clue, don't have clue on where to start looking.

NASA astrobiologist Chris McKay (2012)
"The scientific study of the origin of life is still early enough that there's not even a consensus on how to approach the problem ..."
 

This Vale Of Tears

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RealFaith said:
As the return of Jesus Christ draws near, more and more foolish beliefs are being accepted by the church. It is said that millions of Christians now accept evolution. Oh, I don't mean micro evolution, I mean macro evolution. You know, where a frog can turn ( or evolve) into a prince over millions of years, where male and female originated from monkey urine. Yes, macro evolution. This devilish lie is now accepted by millions of Christians. But here is my question:

In the gospel of Mark, Jesus confirms the creation of Adam and Eve. Obviously Jesus believed that Adam and Eve were literal people, created by God. Plus, the apostle Paul believed that we all inherited sin from Adam. So how can so many Christians believe the lie of macro evolution? Do they not believe what Jesus said? Does this not show what a bad state the church is in, to believe that humans evolved from animals and ignore what Jesus said about creation?
It's an issue that I see time and time again not only on this issue, but on many. People want to be the arbiter, the diplomat finding common ground between two embattled positions. The Bible asks us, "What hath Christ to do with Belial?" But like many passages that prepare us to be hated by the world, people ignore them, thinking that peace with God means peace with the world, even though Scripture tells us that peace with God means enmity with the world. So instead of having the guts to take a stand on one side or another, liberal Christians seek the path of lukewarm-ness.

Jesus said that the heavens suffer violence and the violent take it by force. Jesus said that he didn't come to bring peace but a sword to divide. Liberal Christians bury their heads in the sands of the Beatitudes and pretend that Jesus was fluffy, all sunshine and rainbows. Scripture doesn't support this view, it tells us that we will be at loggerheads with the world when we stand for Christ and when we stand on a foundation of truth. The liberal Christian, the diplomat, the wuss, is repelled by the thought that evolution as a theory has zero merit and that the account of God's creation of the heavens and the earth, the fish in the sea, the birds of the air, all animals according to their kind, and then man in His own image as a crowning jewel of all creation can't be completely true.

But it doesn't stop there. I addressed in another thread how liberal Christians think abortion is wrong but nothing should be done about it. Issue after issue, their cowardice prevails and they are ashamed to take a stand for Christ, for truth, and for life. It's no wonder Jesus said of these people that he would vomit them out of his mouth!
 

BLACK SHEEP

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This Vale Of Tears said:
It's an issue that I see time and time again not only on this issue, but on many. People want to be the arbiter, the diplomat finding common ground between two embattled positions. The Bible asks us, "What hath Christ to do with Belial?" But like many passages that prepare us to be hated by the world, people ignore them, thinking that peace with God means peace with the world, even though Scripture tells us that peace with God means enmity with the world. So instead of having the guts to take a stand on one side or another, liberal Christians seek the path of lukewarm-ness.

Jesus said that the heavens suffer violence and the violent take it by force. Jesus said that he didn't come to bring peace but a sword to divide. Liberal Christians bury their heads in the sands of the Beatitudes and pretend that Jesus was fluffy, all sunshine and rainbows. Scripture doesn't support this view, it tells us that we will be at loggerheads with the world when we stand for Christ and when we stand on a foundation of truth. The liberal Christian, the diplomat, the wuss, is repelled by the thought that evolution as a theory has zero merit and that the account of God's creation of the heavens and the earth, the fish in the sea, the birds of the air, all animals according to their kind, and then man in His own image as a crowning jewel of all creation can't be completely true.

But it doesn't stop there. I addressed in another thread how liberal Christians think abortion is wrong but nothing should be done about it. Issue after issue, their cowardice prevails and they are ashamed to take a stand for Christ, for truth, and for life. It's no wonder Jesus said of these people that he would vomit them out of his mouth!
You have the view that all liberals think alike. Well you're wrong. We don't all think alike!

Three things I'll never call myself.
1. Protestant
2. Republican
3. Conservative
 
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Dodo_David

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Apparently, this thread is based on a straw-man argument, which is a misrepresentation of modern evolution theory.

I'm not saying that I endorse it, but I do know enough about it to know that it is being mischaracterized.
 
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IBeMe

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(
Dodo_David;
it is being mischaracterized
)

There's currently no workable theory of how life could have started without God.

This isn't a mischaracterization; I'm quoting the leading evolutionary scientist working on that very problem.

Not only do they not have a theory, "there's not even a consensus on how to approach the problem."

Let's not forget what this theory is; we're supposed to go from dust and gas to the complexity of life we have today by random occurrences.

Pay particular attention to Harvard's Dr. Liu's words, "could have".

That's all the Theory of Evolution is, a group of "could have"s.

As science advances, the "could have"s turn into "impossible".

When a "could have" turns into "impossible", they try to come up with a replacement "could have".

They used to have a bunch of "could have"s, on the origin of life; but they all got vaporized when the complexity of the most simple cell was realized.

In 2005, Harvard started looking for a "could have" for the origin of life " with no divine intervention."

2013, no "could have", and no agreement on where to look.

=================

The Theory of Evolution is like a ship with some holes in it.

The ship's crew, evolutionary scientist, are working to patch the holes.

The research they do to patch the holes reveals a new level of life's complexity; thus producing more holes.

A sample of DNA the size of your thumb can hold all the information of the whole Internet.
( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444233104577593291643488120.html )


=================

(Origin of Life)

"... my expectation is that we will be able to reduce this to a very simple series of logical events that could have taken place with no divine intervention." (David R. Liu, professor of chemistry and chemical biology, Harvard, 2005)

NASA astrobiologist Chris McKay (2012)
"The scientific study of the origin of life is still early enough that there's not even a consensus on how to approach the problem ..."
 

Dodo_David

Melmacian in human guise
Jul 13, 2013
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IBeMe said:
(
Dodo_David;
it is being mischaracterized
)

There's currently no workable theory of how life could have started without God.

This isn't a mischaracterization; I'm quoting the leading evolutionary scientist working on that very problem.

Not only do they not have a theory, "there's not even a consensus on how to approach the problem."

Let's not forget what this theory is; we're supposed to go from dust and gas to the complexity of life we have today by random occurrences.

Pay particular attention to Harvard's Dr. Liu's words, "could have".

That's all the Theory of Evolution is, a group of "could have"s.

As science advances, the "could have"s turn into "impossible".

When a "could have" turns into "impossible", they try to come up with a replacement "could have".

They used to have a bunch of "could have"s, on the origin of life; but they all got vaporized when the complexity of the most simple cell was realized.

In 2005, Harvard started looking for a "could have" for the origin of life " with no divine intervention."

2013, no "could have", and no agreement on where to look.

=================

The Theory of Evolution is like a ship with some holes in it.

The ship's crew, evolutionary scientist, are working to patch the holes.

The research they do to patch the holes reveals a new level of life's complexity; thus producing more holes.

A sample of DNA the size of your thumb can hold all the information of the whole Internet.
( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444233104577593291643488120.html )


=================

(Origin of Life)

"... my expectation is that we will be able to reduce this to a very simple series of logical events that could have taken place with no divine intervention." (David R. Liu, professor of chemistry and chemical biology, Harvard, 2005)

NASA astrobiologist Chris McKay (2012)
"The scientific study of the origin of life is still early enough that there's not even a consensus on how to approach the problem ..."
IBeMe,

Your above-quoted post proves my point. You are getting a scientific theory of how evolutionary events takes place (modern evolution theory) with separate hypotheses about abiogenesis.

Also, you have repeated the false belief that modern evolution theory requires complete randomness.
In his book Climbing Mount Improbable, evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins says the following about the theory of evolution:


It is not necessary that mutation should be random for natural selection to work. Selection can still do its work whether mutation is directed or not. Emphasizing that mutation can be random is our way of calling attention to the crucial fact that, by contrast, selection is sublimely and quintessentially non-random. It is ironic that this emphasis on the contrast between mutation and the non-randomness of selection has led people to think that the whole theory is a theory of chance . . . But, as I said before, it is not critical to the theory that mutation must be random, and it most certainly provides no excuse to tar the whole theory with the brush of randomness.
As I said earlier, I am not endorsing modern evolution theory. I'm simply saying that people who reject it need to have an accurate understanding of what they are rejecting, and one won't have an accurate understanding by reading anti-evolution writings only.

[quote Source: Richard Dawkins, Climbing Mount Improbable (W.W. Norton & Company: 1996), pp. 80-82.]
 
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This Vale Of Tears

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kaotic profit said:
You have the view that all liberals think alike. Well you're wrong. We don't all think alike!

Three things I'll never call myself.
1. Protestant
2. Republican
3. Conservative
I said liberal Christians, as in those calling themselves Christians but having a more expansive theology that includes secular and unorthodox notions. This has nothing to do with politics. Eat some fruit.
 

Robertson

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Adam and Eve were created and placed here. Animals and plants were placed here. Once things were set in motion, it makes no difference if they evolve from there or not. Humans lived longer then, now they live less. There has been change. But this matters not. God created us and to him we will return.
 

the stranger

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You have the view that all liberals think alike. Well you're wrong. We don't all think alike!

Three things I'll never call myself.
1. Protestant
2. Republican
3. Conservative
That's too bad. The longer I live the more i know I can be proud of such words in relation to my stance. Even if the Republican party is loosing it's hold now wanting to be in the middle of issues where there is no middle, but truth be told, without Republicans, there would still be slavery.
 

Eltanin

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The Bible is a Spiritual Book not a scientific/historical treatise... The people who were inspired to write down the words we have were given words which they understood... We have more information now... And still we use terminology we understand, in a couple thousand years, we would yet again seem primitive to our descendants.

Why does evolution have to be against the Bible... The order of Creation matches with the order of evolution... What if evolution were the TOOL that God used for creation... God had an idea, and He made it come to pass... God is a spiritual being, He is all-powerful... He just had to imagine things into existence, and they were there... What if evolution was the physical form of God's thoughts becoming material reality...

Like the Big Bang... For me, if anything, it proves God... Imagine the suddenness of speaking a universe into existence. I figure it would be pretty spectacular, like a firework exploding...

It's like this... I can make a cake with spoon, or a mixer. Does it matter which I use? When I serve the cake, those eating it could dispute the method I used to make it, but the end results are the same. The cake is a cake, and I am the one who made it. I still used the same ingredients, and I still had to bake it.
 

the stranger

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http://www.gospelway.com/creation/evolution_consequences.php

This is a great site for reasons the bible and evolution cannot and do not go together and he uses many quotes in doing so. You should take a bit of time to go over this site.

Nothing about the order matches up. Nothing about the time matches up. Evolution was a lie that started to come up with away to excuse, or pretend, there is no God.

I would add it is a rare thing to see life from an explosion. This notion holds first, everything clumped together, then, everything blew apart, then, from that, things started to clump together again to form life. To this day there has no evidence for such a story and in fact science goes against it. Evolution still has trouble giving us one example of anything that is in between the stages of changing species. However, I did one time see a catdog on a cartoon. :)

The issue is, do we believe the bible, which has factual support from one end to the other, or do we believe atheist, who have only great dreams and no facts to imagine a life with no accountability before Lord our God.

God bless
 

This Vale Of Tears

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Eltanin said:
The Bible is a Spiritual Book not a scientific/historical treatise... The people who were inspired to write down the words we have were given words which they understood... We have more information now... And still we use terminology we understand, in a couple thousand years, we would yet again seem primitive to our descendants.

Why does evolution have to be against the Bible... The order of Creation matches with the order of evolution... What if evolution were the TOOL that God used for creation... God had an idea, and He made it come to pass... God is a spiritual being, He is all-powerful... He just had to imagine things into existence, and they were there... What if evolution was the physical form of God's thoughts becoming material reality...

Like the Big Bang... For me, if anything, it proves God... Imagine the suddenness of speaking a universe into existence. I figure it would be pretty spectacular, like a firework exploding...

It's like this... I can make a cake with spoon, or a mixer. Does it matter which I use? When I serve the cake, those eating it could dispute the method I used to make it, but the end results are the same. The cake is a cake, and I am the one who made it. I still used the same ingredients, and I still had to bake it.
The purpose of the theory of evolution is to deny the existence of God, not prove it. It seeks an alternate explanation for our origins from the Big Bang theory, to primordial micro-biotic ascent to interspecies metamorphosis. It seeks to blockade any contribution by an Intelligent Designer by positing alternative explanations at every step of the way. This intent has been well established which is why evolution is the primary belief system of atheists and promoters of humanism. I don't see the need to find common ground with that (what hath Christ to do with Belial?). I recognize it as hostility to God. Moreover, I know that the weapons of our warfare are mighty in God "for pulling down strongholds, casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. (emphasis added, 2Corinthians 10:4,5) Nowhere do I see a call to compromise with those forces.
 
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Eltanin

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Some people do try and use scientific theory to disprove the existence of God... That is the fault in those people... Not a fault in theories. The theory of evolution itself was not to disprove God, and it did not start with Darwin, he just happened to make a little more sense out of the theory of transmutation of species. He was not trying to disprove God, he was merely seeking explanations as to how God created. It was other men who had the agenda of disproving God.

All that I am trying to point out is that Science doesn't disprove God. Scientific theory does not disprove God. Most Scientists are not trying to disprove God with their theories. Why are so many Christians so caught up in discrediting Science? What, because a few fanatic scientist think that if they can explain how something has happened, they can say God didn't have a hand in it? God is the one who set natural law into motion, just as He set moral laws into our hearts.

If it came to light beyond a doubt that evolution was a proven fact, it would not discredit the Bible. We may or may not have to re-evaluate what the Scriptures say, but it will just come down to being a flaw within our own understanding. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened.

There are allot of things that are not included in the Bible, such as, the creation of the stars, the angels, Hell, other planets, micro-organisms... We just make assumptions. That is all Science does.
Science makes assumptions. Those assumptions are called theories. Science then seeks to validate those theories in the material world. Even if Science one day could prove all facts of the universe, it will only mean we understand how God did stuff... Just like if I made the cake, everyone might learn the recipe, but that doesn't mean I didn't, in fact, make the cake.

In response to the stranger,
As it stands, I cannot agree with the website. My faith is not weakened if it is learned that evolution is the mechanism that God used to create us... My relationship is not with Genesis chapter 1. Unbelievers don't have a doctrine. The only people that really equate evolution with unbelief of God are Christians, and as I have stated, if God did create evolution, He is still the Creator of everything.

Belief in evolution does not mean that God did not have a direct hand in how life evolved... In fact, the theory of evolution has had some dramatic revolutions since it was first proposed. The theory of Survival of the Fittest has become more to do with being the most adaptable instead of being the strongest. Science has proven that natural selection is a very non-random process, and macro-evolution has actually been showing us some very surprising revelations on just how magnificent and efficient God's creation is.

Religious institutions and atheistic scientists are the ones who have made a vocalized removal of God from any scientific theory... Most scientists aren't interested in discrediting God. They always ask the question, if something is there, how did it get there? Many Scientist are very religious. The statement by the website that claims the theory of evolution puts forth that inanimate matter was solely responsible for the beginnings of life, not God, is a statement spread more by Christians trying to discredit Science, and not by Science trying to discredit God. Science would not stop at determining that there was indeed that inanimate matter, it would then go so far as to find out where that matter came from and how it came to be.

The Bible has an order of Creation that isn't so out of line with the order of the theory of evolution.
The Earth- the atmosphere and oceans- land and plants- fish and creatures of the air- mammals- man

As for time... God, if He wanted, could just materialize whatever he desired to happen in six days... Why not just do it all in one day? Apparently, He had specific reasons... The thing is, if God just materialized everything as it is, as though it had spanned billions of years back... sort of retrograde... Because, let's face it, if we are trying to line Bible and Science up together, we must take into account that the Earth has a geological history that predates man by more than 5 days.Then why couldn't he also just create something in fast-forward in six days?

If evolution were proven to be the case, then it is not what degrades humanity to animals, it is humans who state this. Evolution, by definition, is not a degradation, it is an improving of/upon.

Marriage and the afterlife are not really a concern for the evolution of species as scientific theory... Evolution does not concern itself with whether a spirit exist of not, it is a theory concerning the physical existence of life and mental consciousness.

Anyways... I couldn't go on. My eyes are getting heavy. I think the easy way for me to finish is this. Does it really matter what men try to prove or disprove. In the end, the question remains, "What came before that?" Theory is theory, and faith does not need proof. Our relationship is with Who God IS, not with what is written in the Bible. The miracle of Creation, or any other miracle of God for that matter is no less a miracle if it can be explained.
 

This Vale Of Tears

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Eltanin said:
Some people do try and use scientific theory to disprove the existence of God... That is the fault in those people... Not a fault in theories. The theory of evolution itself was not to disprove God, and it did not start with Darwin, he just happened to make a little more sense out of the theory of transmutation of species. He was not trying to disprove God, he was merely seeking explanations as to how God created. It was other men who had the agenda of disproving God.

You're already misunderstanding the issue. At best Darwin was ambiguous on the existence of God, though he grew up religious. He considered himself a materialist on the side of reason over superstition.


All that I am trying to point out is that Science doesn't disprove God. Scientific theory does not disprove God. Most Scientists are not trying to disprove God with their theories. Why are so many Christians so caught up in discrediting Science? What, because a few fanatic scientist think that if they can explain how something has happened, they can say God didn't have a hand in it? God is the one who set natural law into motion, just as He set moral laws into our hearts.

If it came to light beyond a doubt that evolution was a proven fact, it would not discredit the Bible. We may or may not have to re-evaluate what the Scriptures say, but it will just come down to being a flaw within our own understanding. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened.


I've been following this debate for quite some time and either you're woefully ignorant or purposely misframing the debate. It's precisely the Intelligent Design scientists who are a pariah in the scientific community for merely suggesting that a higher, undefined power was the generating force in creation. And it isn't a "few fanatical scientists" (here's where you are distorting, hopefully out of ignorance) who deny any role of a Creator, it's the dominant philosophical foundation of the scientific community. You really need to watch Ben Stein's documentary "Expelled" because it catalogues the monopoly that atheism has in Big Science and the treatment of any scientist who dissents from the majority opinion. You couldn't have gotten this more wrong if you tried.



There are allot of things that are not included in the Bible, such as, the creation of the stars, the angels, Hell, other planets, micro-organisms... We just make assumptions. That is all Science does.
Science makes assumptions. Those assumptions are called theories. Science then seeks to validate those theories in the material world. Even if Science one day could prove all facts of the universe, it will only mean we understand how God did stuff... Just like if I made the cake, everyone might learn the recipe, but that doesn't mean I didn't, in fact, make the cake.

Now you're citing pure science when it has absolutely nothing to do with what passes for science at the Smithsonian Institution. Real science is fluid, never absolutely sure of its conclusions, always ready to revisit old assumptions in the light of new evidence. It is, in short, a genuine search for the truth. Evolutionary science is intransigent, stubbornly holding on to views regardless of evidence that casts doubt on it. Evolution has become less like science and more like religion, with a priesthood, a catechism, and deep set dogmas that are to its adherents, the very breath of life.




Religious institutions and atheistic scientists are the ones who have made a vocalized removal of God from any scientific theory... Most scientists aren't interested in discrediting God. They always ask the question, if something is there, how did it get there? Many Scientist are very religious. The statement by the website that claims the theory of evolution puts forth that inanimate matter was solely responsible for the beginnings of life, not God, is a statement spread more by Christians trying to discredit Science, and not by Science trying to discredit God. Science would not stop at determining that there was indeed that inanimate matter, it would then go so far as to find out where that matter came from and how it came to be.

Most scientists are indeed interested in discrediting God, that's where you fall flat on your face. Moreover you keep citing science when evolutionary science is the corruption of real science to support an underlying philosophical premise that there is no God. Christians do not try to discredit science and never have. Such breathtakingly dunderheaded statements like that render me incapable of taking you seriously.


The Bible has an order of Creation that isn't so out of line with the order of the theory of evolution.
The Earth- the atmosphere and oceans- land and plants- fish and creatures of the air- mammals- man


Wrong again. The Bible says the earth was created and then light. Evolution says light and then the earth. The Bible says that animals were created according to their kind. Evolution says that life arose from primordial carbon forms and eventually evolved into different species. The Bible says that man was created in the image of God out of the dust and that God breathed life into him. Evolution says that man decended from apes and has no divine significance. Time and time again, the atheistic theory of evolution proves itself at loggerheads with the account of Creation given directly by the Creator himself.



If evolution were proven to be the case, then it is not what degrades humanity to animals, it is humans who state this. Evolution, by definition, is not a degradation, it is an improving of/upon.


It is in this way that evolution posits error. Far from man evolving and improving, quite the opposite happened. Man was created immortal, in good health, and morally unimpeachable. Even after the fall, men lived for centuries before dying. We are not improving, we are falling further away from what we were originally created to be. You have turned truth on its head. The truth is the precise opposite of what you said.
 

Eltanin

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VoT... It seems to me that you are equating Science with a religion, and faith into less than a relationship with the Creator...

There are those who would substitute Science for religion and yes, they do try to use it to discredit God... But there are people who would substitute the Bible for a relationship with God as well... I am saying that Scientific Theory is abused when thus used, just as Scripture is abused.

Evolution is a theory. Some scientist would use it as their 'scripture'... It does not equal the theory of evolution as evil. The fact that it is a theory means that it is only a guess and should be understood as "Not Law" and not proven. People who teach it as a proven fact are usually ignorant as to what a theory actually is.

Christians who do battle with a theory are fighting a losing battle. The battle lies with those who abuse theory and try to teach it as law. A theory is not proven, and so time is wasted by trying to disprove it with anything other than tangible, material evidence, since a theory must be proven with physical evidence to become accepted as scientific law. In order to counter the destructive attitudes of those who abuse theory, then it would be more constructive to explain and educate people as to what Theory actually is.

I am not woefully ignorant of the debate, and I am not intentionally trying to misframe anything. I believe when people try to pit spiritual and physical against each other, then they are opening themselves up for distraction. I am stating that science is not religion, and religion is not science, even though some people substitute one for the other. There is a key difference between science and religion. Science deals with the physical existence and tries to explain it. Religion deals with the Spiritual and tries to guide.

I have always had a keen interest in Science, and I am especially interested in what Christian scientists have to say. There are many many religious scientist (not just Christians either) who feel that their profession has brought them closer to knowing God. When you speak of scientist who use theory to try and 'prove' God does not exist, you speak of a very vocal group of people who yell louder than the rest, and thus it makes them seem like there are more of them than there really are. The words 'many' and 'most' are very often exchanged, but they are not equal terms.

There are many scientists that try to use theory as fact. Many scientist do try and discredit God. Most scientists are of the understanding that theories are unproven and will make a distinction that they believe in theories but will be honest to the fact that they are not laws.

The Theory of evolution is not the dominant philosophical foundation of science, it is the dominant philosophical foundation of the atheistic community, but there is a simple argument that can shut down an atheist very quickly. Theory is not proven as law. There is no universal law of evolution accepted in the whole of the scientific community... It is only accepted as law in the Church of Atheism which just so happens to have a few prominent science personalities as members. You can't fight this battle with an 'Our word against yours' attitude.

The science that most people read about is flavored by media and agendas. Studies are funded by governments and corporations... By the time we learn about theories or advances, or set-backs in theories, it has passed through biased sources to get to us. But if you look at the original theory without those filters or additives, you get... "What if this happened this way?" It is a discussion that begs closer examination. Some people say, "Yes, I think I know what you are getting at..." and others say, "I don't think so."

The actual Theory of evolution is not so rigid as you claim. It has been revisted time and again, and continues to be revisited today. Many proponents of evolution acknowledge the holes in the theory. Evolution has broken into different camps, such as the macro crowd, and the micro crowd... There are many things that are left unexplained by the theory. The scientific community acknowledges this and have come up with many other theories to look into... The Atheistic church ignores the holes and claims the theory is an accepted law.

I did state that the order of evolution was not so out of line with the order of the Bible... I didn't say that they lined up. Yet still, if we want to go so far, we can debate that. The original Genesis account puts the Heavens creation before the Earth... We can make the assumption that it means that God created space, including stars, angels, other planets, and the like, or we can make another assumption...

In the Torah, Genesis 1:1 can just as correctly be literally interpreted as, "When in the beginning, God Created the earth and the sky" ... There were already things going on, but we might assume that God had a vision for what he wanted, and He had already gathered the materials in place for his work. Back to the cake analogy, when I am mixing a cake, even though it is not baked yet, I still consider it a cake.

We go on to find out that the earth was without form... and the elements that were to be its make-up were not yet cohesive... Then God turns on the light... After God turns on the light, he then separates light from dark... I suppose the best way to do that is to cast a shadow. I love the pictures of Earth from space... You actually see the separation of night and day on the Earth... The separation of light and dark may be when all the elements that were to make the Earth, as we understand it, took solid form. Without the rotation of the planet, we do not have a distinction of night and day. Darkness and light are not separated in space, only with planetary rotation do we get this distinction. God defined this for us on the first day.

God then goes on to separate the water and land.... from the earth which is now in existence. He also defines the land and sea. This was the second day... (the word that is translated into 'good' is also the same word for 'functional' or 'adequate' in the Hebrew language)... The Bible goes on to put the order of all visible creation as plants on the third day, lower lifeforms on the fourth day (English uses the words fish and fowl, but the Hebrew word is literally translated as swarmers and fliers)... Then we have animals on the fifth day... Lastly we have man.

The scientific theory of evolution deals with the physical progression of why things might look as they do now. Humanity is above the animals in both evolution and Creationism... Creation states spiritually we are less than what we were when god first created us... The theory of evolution isn't concerned with our spiritual progress, because science is the study of the physical.

I think this demonstrated how evolution and the Bible can loosely line up... If we keep in mind that evolution is an unproven theory, but the Bible has the truth, we can just understand that we have more of the story than the guessers. Those who would abuse scientific theory are false even to science. True Science deals with trying to prove the physical , and is not meant to disprove the spiritual. There are groups of people who have been deceived by such abuses. Any movements to use science against God is false, even though many people have entered the scientific field thinking that it is what Science does.

As Christians, we must remember that even the part of the Truth was used to tempt Jesus in the wilderness. If our adversaries can use the truth to deceive, they can surely use incomplete and/or wrong guesses. We must demonstrate the distinction between Science and Faith by showing that we do not have all the answers, and we are okay with that. If we had all the answers, it wouldn't be faith... Not having all the answers allows for others to have parts of the truth. When it comes to Science, we just need to step back and remember that theory is, by definition, unproven. Anytime anyone tells you otherwise, then can explain that they believe in something just as unproven by physical evidence as you believe.

The Bible gives us some ingredients for Creation, it does not give us the recipe. Science is seeking to find the recipe. Such as my cake, I can tell you I uses eggs, flour, sugar, and milk; but I haven't told you how much of each. I might leave out that I used some vanilla or almond extract. I probably won't tell you whether I used an electric mixer or a wooden spoon... I might leave out whether the cake baked in an aluminum pan or a glass one... The Bible gives us the important stuff, not every detail... If we can acknowledge that, and admit that others might have a little insight to the unimportant details, then maybe people would be more willing to listen to our testimonies as well. We must understand that even though many scientist have taken it upon themselves to misuse science, Science itself is not capable of disproving God and the Bible, as God is spiritual and the Bible is a spiritual book. God set into motion, the physical laws which science aims to explain.
 

This Vale Of Tears

Indian Papist
Jun 13, 2013
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Idaho
Eltanin said:
VoT... It seems to me that you are equating Science with a religion, and faith into less than a relationship with the Creator...

There are those who would substitute Science for religion and yes, they do try to use it to discredit God... But there are people who would substitute the Bible for a relationship with God as well... I am saying that Scientific Theory is abused when thus used, just as Scripture is abused.


But this isn't a case where scripture is being used, it's a case of scripture being ignored. Though we can debate the details of creation because Genesis is far from an exhaustive step by step account of creation, the agenda to deny that there is even a Creator is what drives the evolution movement.

Evolution is a theory. Some scientist would use it as their 'scripture'... It does not equal the theory of evolution as evil. The fact that it is a theory means that it is only a guess and should be understood as "Not Law" and not proven. People who teach it as a proven fact are usually ignorant as to what a theory actually is.

Christians who do battle with a theory are fighting a losing battle. The battle lies with those who abuse theory and try to teach it as law. A theory is not proven, and so time is wasted by trying to disprove it with anything other than tangible, material evidence, since a theory must be proven with physical evidence to become accepted as scientific law. In order to counter the destructive attitudes of those who abuse theory, then it would be more constructive to explain and educate people as to what Theory actually is.

And yet education is not lacking, at least not on my part. Evolution's embarrassing gaps are well known among the fundamentalist Christians, particularly the Precambrian explosion and the omission of millions of critical transitional forms. The fossil record openly defies the claims of evolution and would have caused the rigorously intellectually honest Charles Darwin to abandon his theory if he had known what we know today.





The Theory of evolution is not the dominant philosophical foundation of science,


Yes it is. Watch Ben Stein's documentary.



it is the dominant philosophical foundation of the atheistic community, but there is a simple argument that can shut down an atheist very quickly. Theory is not proven as law. There is no universal law of evolution accepted in the whole of the scientific community... It is only accepted as law in the Church of Atheism which just so happens to have a few prominent science personalities as members. You can't fight this battle with an 'Our word against yours' attitude.

The science that most people read about is flavored by media and agendas. Studies are funded by governments and corporations... By the time we learn about theories or advances, or set-backs in theories, it has passed through biased sources to get to us. But if you look at the original theory without those filters or additives, you get... "What if this happened this way?" It is a discussion that begs closer examination. Some people say, "Yes, I think I know what you are getting at..." and others say, "I don't think so."

You actually believe in a purist form of science where scientists set aside their biases and predispositions, never hold on to theories in spite of contradicting evidence, and have no agenda save a candid search for truth. I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you. Dominant science certainly isn't governed by the piety you wish it had.

The actual Theory of evolution is not so rigid as you claim. It has been revisted time and again, and continues to be revisited today. Many proponents of evolution acknowledge the holes in the theory. Evolution has broken into different camps, such as the macro crowd, and the micro crowd... There are many things that are left unexplained by the theory. The scientific community acknowledges this and have come up with many other theories to look into... The Atheistic church ignores the holes and claims the theory is an accepted law.

I did state that the order of evolution was not so out of line with the order of the Bible... I didn't say that they lined up. Yet still, if we want to go so far, we can debate that. The original Genesis account puts the Heavens creation before the Earth... We can make the assumption that it means that God created space, including stars, angels, other planets, and the like, or we can make another assumption...

The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.


In the Torah, Genesis 1:1 can just as correctly be literally interpreted as, "When in the beginning, God Created the earth and the sky" ... There were already things going on, but we might assume that God had a vision for what he wanted, and He had already gathered the materials in place for his work. Back to the cake analogy, when I am mixing a cake, even though it is not baked yet, I still consider it a cake.

Speaking of the Torah, Ben Stein is Jewish.



We go on to find out that the earth was without form... and the elements that were to be its make-up were not yet cohesive... Then God turns on the light... After God turns on the light, he then separates light from dark... I suppose the best way to do that is to cast a shadow. I love the pictures of Earth from space... You actually see the separation of night and day on the Earth... The separation of light and dark may be when all the elements that were to make the Earth, as we understand it, took solid form. Without the rotation of the planet, we do not have a distinction of night and day. Darkness and light are not separated in space, only with planetary rotation do we get this distinction. God defined this for us on the first day.


God then goes on to separate the water and land.... from the earth which is now in existence. He also defines the land and sea. This was the second day... (the word that is translated into 'good' is also the same word for 'functional' or 'adequate' in the Hebrew language)... The Bible goes on to put the order of all visible creation as plants on the third day, lower lifeforms on the fourth day (English uses the words fish and fowl, but the Hebrew word is literally translated as swarmers and fliers)... Then we have animals on the fifth day... Lastly we have man.

The scientific theory of evolution deals with the physical progression of why things might look as they do now. Humanity is above the animals in both evolution and Creationism... Creation states spiritually we are less than what we were when god first created us... The theory of evolution isn't concerned with our spiritual progress, because science is the study of the physical.

I think this demonstrated how evolution and the Bible can loosely line up... If we keep in mind that evolution is an unproven theory, but the Bible has the truth, we can just understand that we have more of the story than the guessers. Those who would abuse scientific theory are false even to science. True Science deals with trying to prove the physical , and is not meant to disprove the spiritual. There are groups of people who have been deceived by such abuses. Any movements to use science against God is false, even though many people have entered the scientific field thinking that it is what Science does.

You use the term "loosely" because you gloss over glaring contradictions and don't even broach on the subject of the origins of man, which evolution claims is not divine in nature, but rather a lucky product of a long line of genetic mutations beginning with micro-biotic forms in a primordial soup. The contrast couldn't be more conspicuous. The Genesis account stands in stark opposition to the claims of evolution on every level.



As Christians, we must remember that even the part of the Truth was used to tempt Jesus in the wilderness. If our adversaries can use the truth to deceive, they can surely use incomplete and/or wrong guesses. We must demonstrate the distinction between Science and Faith by showing that we do not have all the answers, and we are okay with that. If we had all the answers, it wouldn't be faith... Not having all the answers allows for others to have parts of the truth. When it comes to Science, we just need to step back and remember that theory is, by definition, unproven. Anytime anyone tells you otherwise, then can explain that they believe in something just as unproven by physical evidence as you believe.


You err again, overlooking history. You presume that Christianity has pitted itself against science when the precise opposite happened. The greatest scientific discoveries in the history of man have mostly been by Christians and it was Christians who authored the scientific method. It wasn't until the materialist age of the 19th century that science was repurposed to support materialism and confound belief in the divine.

The Bible gives us some ingredients for Creation, it does not give us the recipe. Science is seeking to find the recipe. Such as my cake, I can tell you I uses eggs, flour, sugar, and milk; but I haven't told you how much of each. I might leave out that I used some vanilla or almond extract. I probably won't tell you whether I used an electric mixer or a wooden spoon... I might leave out whether the cake baked in an aluminum pan or a glass one... The Bible gives us the important stuff, not every detail... If we can acknowledge that, and admit that others might have a little insight to the unimportant details, then maybe people would be more willing to listen to our testimonies as well. We must understand that even though many scientist have taken it upon themselves to misuse science, Science itself is not capable of disproving God and the Bible, as God is spiritual and the Bible is a spiritual book. God set into motion, the physical laws which science aims to explain.

Your now thrice touted cake baking analogy can be useful if you understand that the whole thrust of evolution is to defend the claim that the cake baked itself. If you don't understand that, your analogy falls apart faster than Ikea furniture.
 

Eltanin

New Member
Aug 22, 2012
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You are lumping the whole scientific community together with those who would seek to discredit God, much like they would lump every person who claims to know Jesus... There are many different views that do not deserve to be lumped together. As Christians, we tend to concern ourselves with what non-Christians use to disprove God, and people do use the theory of evolution as their 'doctrine'. That doesn't mean that there must be no truth whatsoever to the theory.

There are gaps in every scientific theory. That is because theories are guesses, and not proven. They aren't gap free until they are proven, but then, they move from the realm of theory. The fossil record disproves many original theories of evolution, but it supports, and even encouraged new theories in regards to evolution, like macro evolution. The distinctions between macro and micro would not have been discovered if the theory of evolution that Darwin proposed was just thrown out the window because some men wanted to be closed-minded.

I believe that true Science does not disprove God. It is men who try to use it to do so.... The fault lies with men, not with science. We use our own perceptions to try and achieve understanding, and that leads to bias. You and I are both demonstrating such bias now. Individual perception also flavors science, but if it didn't, nothing new would ever be discovered. If every theory ever thought up was dismissed because most of the scientific and/or religious communities ostracized the ones who were biased in favor of the theory, nothing new would ever be discovered. Remember the ideas of the Earth being flat, or geocentric Earth (Earth as the center of the universe), dinosaurs, the existence of microbes, the importance of DNA, the existence of atoms and sub-atomic particles, and the list goes on. When it came time to change how we thought about these things, the change always met resistance... And about the time people understand and accept the change, new discoveries make the new changes obsolete...

I respect Ben Stein, but I cannot comment on a documentary I may not have watched. I also understand he is a Jew, but I prefer to do my own research when it comes to what the Bible says, and not take one man's word for it.

The Origin of Man was Darwin's book. It includes Darwin's concepts regarding transmutation of species (no longer an accepted theory in the scientific community), he introduces his idea of natural selection, and survival of the fittest, where he states the strongest survive (the theory has undergone modifications over the years and now it is accepted that the most adaptable survive). He addresses the physical, he stated he believed God had a starting hand, but also acknowledged his doubts. His honesty about his doubt does not mean he set out to discredit God. Those with agenda took his doubts and ran with them.

I don't know what God creating the world looked like, so I don't go around saying that it definitely didn't look like this or that. I can see where some of the theories about evolution could hold water.That is why I use the term loosely. The theory of evolution is not complete. If there is truth to it, then some day it will line up more completely with the Bible. If there is no truth to it, some day it will be replaced by another theory entirely. I hold the Bible in higher esteem than any scientific theory.

Christianity HAS pitted itself against many things... And many things been pitted against the Bible. Doesn't mean that those things cited against Christianity, or that Christians cited against, are entirely untrue. Even those Christian men who put forth theories and so forth faced ridicule within the Christianity and the Scientific community. Many were not validated until after their death. Many Christian scientists were considered heretics.

The best deception should some truth. There is most definitely SOME truth within the theory of evolution. To fight the deception it is best to start acknowledging the truth within deception so we can separate the good from the bad.

The whole thrust of evolution is not that the cake baked itself... The whole thrust of atheism is that the cake baked itself. Just because there is a large presence of atheist in the vocal front of science does not mean the theory itself is completely anti-God... It has been twisted into that form by those who abuse it...
 

veteran

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Aug 6, 2010
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Southeast USA
RealFaith said:
As the return of Jesus Christ draws near, more and more foolish beliefs are being accepted by the church. It is said that millions of Christians now accept evolution. Oh, I don't mean micro evolution, I mean macro evolution. You know, where a frog can turn ( or evolve) into a prince over millions of years, where male and female originated from monkey urine. Yes, macro evolution. This devilish lie is now accepted by millions of Christians. But here is my question:

In the gospel of Mark, Jesus confirms the creation of Adam and Eve. Obviously Jesus believed that Adam and Eve were literal people, created by God. Plus, the apostle Paul believed that we all inherited sin from Adam. So how can so many Christians believe the lie of macro evolution? Do they not believe what Jesus said? Does this not show what a bad state the church is in, to believe that humans evolved from animals and ignore what Jesus said about creation?
Many brethren have since long been taught to keep the things of God separate from the things of the world. Because so many of the crept in unawares have slipped into Christ's Body, their lies have misled many brethren against the simplicity in God's Holy Writ, and common sense.

Since God's Word is The Truth, His Word also explains the things of this world in relation to Him and His creation.

Since childhood people today are bombarded with the lie of evolution which is against the very evidence of God's creation. Today's college Biology texts still include the lie, even with the fake embyro drawing proven a hoax over 100 years ago. Large institutions of learning and archaeologly like the universities and historical societies with much funds like the Smithsoian have taken over so as to keep the evolution theory going.

Our Heavenly Father is allowing this because the last days is a time of a lot of 'pruning' among God's true worshippers through His Son Jesus Christ. This evolution lie is just another blade that's going to help that pruning of those who refuse to listen to God in His Word, but listen to Satan's servants and the deceived instead. We don't have to worry about it, because where the times are today, their false wall is very soon to come tumbling down.