Evolution What It Really Is

[treeoflife]

(Lunar;49488)

So, I can say. "Lunar, since you believe in evolution, and that we also evolved from apes, you also believe thatigs will someday fly. Probably too the moon and back.Time travel will someday be possible, and even probable. We will travel back in time and be able to correct our mistakes.Aliens exist and probably created us. Someday they will come back for us all and we will live in peace on their mothership cruising the galaxies.You also believe these are "facts". The point is, if you are going to believe that we came to be, over a long drawn out period, of millions of years, then you are going to believe anything because anything (accept God) is possible.Now, if you take no offense to me saying you think those would also be facts (keep in mind, I said "the point is" so I'm now justified), then go about your way.Otherwise, if my claims are rediculous, so be it, and understand my possition. In any case, this is now way off topic and so I'm done posting here in this thread.Good day. *tips hat*

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

The point is, if you are going to believe that we came to be, over a long drawn out period, of millions of years,
We did.....this 6000 year old earth stuff is should I say nicely "junk"...

 

[Lunar]

(treeoflife;49522)
You also believe these are "facts". The point is, if you are going to believe that we came to be, over a long drawn out period, of millions of years, then you are going to believe anything because anything (accept God) is possible.
You've proved, once again, that you didn't understand the point being made. I suppose I'm glad you're bowing out of the conversation, because frankly your reading comprehension skills are such that a coherent dialogue with you is impossible.(treeoflife)
Now, if you take no offense to me saying you think those would also be facts (keep in mind, I said "the point is" so I'm now justified), then go about your way.
I don't take offense, I just think you should be embarrassed for yourself for demonstrating such a poor understanding of what people are trying to communicate to you. Believing in evolution doesn't entail that anything is possible. Things are only "possible" insofar as observable evidence suggests that they are, and there is ample observable evidence in favor of evolution which I've done my best to communicate to you (you don't seem very interested in it, though, so I question why you were ever in this thread). Believing in the supernatural, however, does entail that anything is possible.

 

[treeoflife]

Whether you think I don't understand what he is communicating really means nothing. If you want to continue to go on about that, check your PM. I understood him perfectly well. Fact is, those facts were nothing but lies, period. It sounds like you're the one who is having problems with communication, because you don't see that.Anyhow, believing in the supernatural is anything but believing anything is possible. Otherwise, what is this we are doing here? Why are we here debating about what is and is not true? The reason is because belief in God entails believing what is true, and whatever is false is not possible. Hence, you show both of your misunderstanding of what it means to be a Christian or what we believe, since you agree with his post and his "point." By all means, come and learn because as of right now you don't get it at all.The "evidence" that exists for the evolution of man and all life over millions and millions of years (monkey to man) only is proof to the brainwashed.

 

[BondiHarry]

Lunar, you have a penchant to mince words and throw out insults. No matter the terminology used, having a finch 'evolve' into another 'species' of finch only demonstrates micro-evolution. Your case for macro-evolution wasn't helped one iota by the example you provided and the 'observable evidence' hardly makes a convincing case for macro-evolution. You've provided no compelling evidence to believe that macro-evolution occurs and you seem to use this thread primarily as a vehicle to be rude to others. If that is your ultimate desire I can refer you to another web site where you'll be right at home with other pride filled posters who will absolutely eat up what you have to say.
Believing in the supernatural, however, does entail that anything is possible.
Not really. Believing that there are many things going on in reality that we are woefully unprepared to grasp doesn't mean that anything is possible. As I've mentioned, before the invention of microscopes and telescopes, there were quite a few things going on all around us that we were not capable of witnessing. So it is with what one may call the supernatural. There are a number of things that go on around us that we don't understand and cannot explain by what we currently know of reality. We may determine that some seemingly inexplicable things (like 'raining' frogs) actually do have explicable causes but there are others like demonic possession that we cannot explain. A person may be insane and viewed as possessed (and not be) but there are documented cases of people doing bizarre things (like speaking in tongues they do not know) that leave us baffled. The movie The Exorcist was based on a real incident. What are to make of these?

 

[adren@line]

(BondiHarry;49310)
Except that gravity is something that is readily observable and, in experiments, can be verified. Macro evolution has NEVER been observed and 'established facts that have been logically tied together' assumes a great deal from a species developing into another species (ie something that has never even been observed is indeed fact) to the problem that still remains with the origins of life. The likelihood of a simple cell spontaneously developing is on a par with a tornado going through a junk yard and creating a Boeing 747.
Sorry, but gravity is a theory. What we observe are the effect of what is beleived to be gravity. Either way, it isnt a fact. So do you believe in gravity? Why dont you look to the Bible for an explanation? Is it Satan pulling us towards hell? How is believing in that any less credible than believing God created us?Either way, evolution is not that unlikely considering it occurred over billions of years. It didn't happen over-night. Perhaps you dont understand how long a 16 billion years is.If lucky, you will live 100 years. Even at that, that is barely a fraction of .00001% of the age of the universe. In macro-level space-time, its as if you never existed at all.

 

[adren@line]

And I suppose YOU know what you are talking about? The above statement appears to be more of a personal opinion than it does FACT...that is what you are trying to convince us of isn't it? That what YOU know is fact....
I know that unless I understand as much as a biologist does in regards to evolution, I am in no place to disregard it.Why, are you a professional biologist? Do you know what you are talking about?
Many Christians (i.e. my party) could simply care less that science attempts on many levels to disprove or discredit a strong belief there is God.
Scientists by large dont care about the concept of God when doing their work. They simply observe nature and the universe. It is not the job of scientists to disprove God. There is no "hidden-agenda" in the scientific community against God.Even if they could prove God, there is no reason to believe it is the Christian God. It could be Islamic, Hindu, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Greek, Egyptian, etc.
seems that you are pointing a finger at Christians, when in fact you do the very thing you dislike about us...you keep your mind closed to our beliefs, you ridicule us by making such statements as "your party" and accuse us of distorting and molding and selectively disregarding, yet you yourself "distort and mold [and selectively disregard]" God 'to fit an agenda' and scientific 'POV'.
I dont disregard God, just your definition of God. You see, Christians do not hold exclusivity to the concept of God. Christianity is only 2000 years old. Hinduism and Judaism are both older, as is Zoroastrianism. All believe in different Gods ranging from monotheism to polytheism to pantheism to henotheism to monism.

 

[adren@line]

That's curious... I don't remember saying that. Weird.
If one set of supernatural beliefs are facts, then why not others? By default, your definition of "fact" includes superstition and unverifiable faith-based beliefs, and hence everything I listed is now a "fact".
Fact is this. If you are looking for people who believe that things don't change over time, and if you are looking for people who believe that evolution (change over time) is not real... you can go to another forum. You will find this forum of no contest to this fact. That's because nobody on this forum contests that things change over time, adapt, and mutate (just as our Glorious Created designed them to). We only contest that evolution does not go back millions of years (IE, the Theory of Evolution), or is the root of life as we know it today. That sir, is your religious belief.
If evolution is a religious belief then so is a belief in gravity. How about M-theory? Is that religious also?
You are decieved and brainwashed, sad to say.
I attend no church and have no spiritual mentor. I take it upon myself to learn about topics from the source and not take other peoples opinions at face value.Can you state the same? Do you go to church? Do you believe everything your priest and people at your church tell you? People who attend religious places of worship, have religious mentors and constantly surround themselves with like-minded people are far more likely to be brainwashed. It is nearly impossible to become brainwashed otherwise. Look at Islamic extremists and terrorists: They go to mosques with other Muslims, hang-out with these people and have a spiritual mentor that brainwashes them. They do not come-about through isolation.Chances are you are far more brainwashed than I.
We will believe the obvious truth in science (evolution), believe it for what it obviously is (the way God made it), and toss out the lie (Theory of Evolution). We don't have to swallow one with the other as you mistakenly have.Man was made fully formed, just as God intended him (and her) and every other living thing.
So you believe we simply "popped-into" existence? One second we werent here, the next we were?So essentially you believe that fully-formed organisms with complex biology simply materialize out of thin-air, kind of like how witches and magicians in movies and cartoons make stuff appear magically.Please provide scientific evidence that complex organisms simply materialize into existence out of nothing. If it happened then, it surely happens now and must occur naturally.

 

[Jackie D]

adren@line said:
I dont disregard God, just your definition of God.
Do tell adren@line, what is my definition of God?
I know that unless I understand as much as a biologist does in regards to evolution, I am in no place to disregard it.Why, are you a professional biologist? Do you know what you are talking about?
I haven't gotten into this conversation by claiming I do know anything other than that I believe in God...nothing else, you haven't seen me try to push "facts" on anyone in this thread. As for disregarding science, I never said I do...what I do say is that all the answers that man "thinks" he can come up with to explain the way things are, will miss the mark if they have not included God as the beginning and the end of it ALL...God bless you

 

[Lunar]

(BondiHarry;49573)
Lunar, you have a penchant to mince words and throw out insults. No matter the terminology used, having a finch 'evolve' into another 'species' of finch only demonstrates micro-evolution. Your case for macro-evolution wasn't helped one iota by the example you provided and the 'observable evidence' hardly makes a convincing case for macro-evolution. You've provided no compelling evidence to believe that macro-evolution occurs and you seem to use this thread primarily as a vehicle to be rude to others. If that is your ultimate desire I can refer you to another web site where you'll be right at home with other pride filled posters who will absolutely eat up what you have to say.
I didn't mince anything. You specifically said that transition from one species to another has never been observed. I provided Darwin's finches as a counterexample to this statement.As for the entirety of macroevolutionary theory, of course it's never been directly observed - human beings didn't even exist as a species for the vast majority of the history of organic life. It is something which is categorically impossible to observe directly but I hope you know enough about science to know that this does not rule it out as a valid scientific theory. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, gravity is also impossible to observe directly (well, within the past few years some have hypothesized that we actually can observe gravity waves, but certainly gravity was a sound scientific theory even before this). We do, however, observe the effects of gravity, just as we do with macroevolution when we observe the transitional fossils or similar genetic structures between organisms.I've tried to provide examples of evidence of it on a broader scale throughout this thread, although as usual no one seems particularly interested in paying attention to them. The countless transitional fossils in the fossil record is a good place to start - contrary to what creationists repeat, there are numerous of examples of this (in fact, it's most accurate to state that every fossil of an organism is a transitional fossil). Look into the Tiktaalik (transitional phase between fish and amphibians), the Archaeopteryx (transitional phase between dinosaur and bird), and the Ambulocetus (transitional phase between land-dwelling mammals and whales), for starters.(Bondi Harry)
Not really. Believing that there are many things going on in reality that we are woefully unprepared to grasp doesn't mean that anything is possible.
It's interesting that you would define the supernatural as "things which we cannot explain." I'll be the first to admit (based on evolutionary theory, ironically enough) that it is entirely likely that there are things in this universe which we cannot hope to comprehend. We've evolved to perceive the world in a particular way because it was useful for us; these perceptory mechanisms may be fundamentally inadequate to fully comprehend, say, a complete theory of quantum mechanics.The difference between you and I is that I don't recognize this for what it is - either as-of-yet undiscovered science, or science which we simply cannot hope to discover - and don't posit a God to explain these gaps.

 

[adren@line]

(Jackie D;49612)
adren@line said: Do tell adren@line, what is my definition of God?I haven't gotten into this conversation by claiming I do know anything other than that I believe in God...nothing else, you haven't seen me try to push "facts" on anyone in this thread. As for disregarding science, I never said I do...what I do say is that all the answers that man "thinks" he can come up with to explain the way things are, will miss the mark if they have not included God as the beginning and the end of it ALL...God bless you
If people were simply happy with the answer "God did it" then we would all still be living in caves or in mud-huts. Without quantum physics, you wouldn't have that computer you are typing on. Without science in general, we wouldn't have electricity, modern medicine, automobiles, etc.99.99% of these inventions are based on observations in nature that do not involve God in any way as far as explanations go. If a child asks how a car runs, are you going to state "God did it" or are you going to explain the mechanics?If the same child asks why the sun sets or why hurricanes occur, is "God did it" a sufficient answer? As a species, we are part of this same ecosystem, same planet, same solar-system, same galaxy, same universe, and same reality. We are no exception to the rule. Wed like to think that we are, but we arent.

 

[Jackie D]

(adren@line;49646)
If people were simply happy with the answer "God did it" then we would all still be living in caves or in mud-huts. Without quantum physics, you wouldn't have that computer you are typing on. Without science in general, we wouldn't have electricity, modern medicine, automobiles, etc.99.99% of these inventions are based on observations in nature that do not involve God in any way as far as explanations go. If a child asks how a car runs, are you going to state "God did it" or are you going to explain the mechanics?If the same child asks why the sun sets or why hurricanes occur, is "God did it" a sufficient answer? As a species, we are part of this same ecosystem, same planet, same solar-system, same galaxy, same universe, and same reality. We are no exception to the rule. Wed like to think that we are, but we arent.
exactly where in my post do I state that science doesn't play an important role? I state that God should not be left out and that He is the beginning and the end. And it if weren't for God, the brain and ability He gave to man, there would be no such thing as science. Please if you are going to respond at least don't imply that I have spoken something that I have not.By the way, you didn't answer my question: What is my definition of God? You stated that you know, I would really like to hear it.blessings

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

Jackie don't waste your time. No matter how much logic you apply adren@lines illogic will kick in. Thats the problem today we are so busy looking at whats rational and irrational we cannot see the forest for the trees. I am not sure about the evolution theory but I do not buy into the Creation Theory either so I am kind of straddling the fence here. Its a known fact we all got here some how or the other. Evolution,creation,Big Bang, Astroid attack whatever we are here.

 

[RaddSpencer]

(adren@line;49646)
If people were simply happy with the answer "God did it" then we would all still be living in caves or in mud-huts. Without quantum physics, you wouldn't have that computer you are typing on. Without science in general, we wouldn't have electricity, modern medicine, automobiles, etc.99.99% of these inventions are based on observations in nature that do not involve God in any way as far as explanations go. If a child asks how a car runs, are you going to state "God did it" or are you going to explain the mechanics?If the same child asks why the sun sets or why hurricanes occur, is "God did it" a sufficient answer? As a species, we are part of this same ecosystem, same planet, same solar-system, same galaxy, same universe, and same reality. We are no exception to the rule. Wed like to think that we are, but we arent.
Meh.Sure "God did it". However, Christian Scientists (especially the early ones as shown in the video) ask "How did God do it, and how does it speak of His perfectionist nature?".http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_l_jw3Dc7A (Isaac Newton, Blaise Pascal, and Faraday are my favorites).Oh, and next time, if you ask how this website works --- I'll answer "Denver did it" HEHEHEHE.

 

[Alpha and Omega]

I'm not going to get into another debate on evolution (tireless debate on another board). but here are some problems with the theory...http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/short_history_01.html

 

[Lunar]

(Alpha and Omega;49698)
I'm not going to get into another debate on evolution (tireless debate on another board). but here are some problems with the theory...http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/short_history_01.html
Frankly, that site is embarrassing. First, for committing the fallacy of criticizing Darwin rather than the theory of evolution itself. And second, for making such classically incorrect criticisms of the theory, like that there are no transitional fossils (refer to my above post for examples of how this is completely untrue) or that it can't account for complex organs like eyes (the argument from irreducible complexity, which again has been refuted time and time again - check out this video by Ken Miller for an explanation as to why irreducible complexity fails http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_HVrjKcvrU). The site's understanding of the Second Law of Thermodynamics with respect to evolutionary theory is particularly cringeworthy.And as for being unable to find out what would cause variation among species, it almost sounds like a joke. Have they forgotten all the discoveries that have been made in the field of genetics?Basically, A & O, don't get the impression that anything on that site is anything new to the discussion. Proponents of evolutionary theory have addressed those arguments repeatedly, and it's only through sheer force of will and politicization that they've managed to remain in public discourse.

 

[RaddSpencer]

(Lunar;49703)
(the argument from irreducible complexity, which again has been refuted time and time again - check out this video by Ken Miller for an explanation as to why irreducible complexity fails http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_HVrjKcvrU).
Every time I saw that video, an electrical engineer cried a single tear. And the scarecrow (strawman) from the "Wizard of Oz" got the stuffing beat out of him

. HEHEHEHEHEhttp://creationevolutiondesign.blogspot.co...ox-10th_10.htmlPennock here tries a common Darwinist tactic (pioneered by Darwin himself) of reversing the burden of proof on to the opponent by making out that Behe is claiming that there are no "functional intermediates." Then all the Darwinist needs to do is point to some example (including imaginary) of same and he has won the argument under those terms.But what Darwinists need to do is demonstrate that the claimed irreducibly complex system was in fact "formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications"http://creationevolutiondesign.blogspot.co...ox-10th_10.html

 

[adren@line]

(Jackie D;49692)
exactly where in my post do I state that science doesn't play an important role? I state that God should not be left out and that He is the beginning and the end. And it if weren't for God, the brain and ability He gave to man, there would be no such thing as science. Please if you are going to respond at least don't imply that I have spoken something that I have not.By the way, you didn't answer my question: What is my definition of God? You stated that you know, I would really like to hear it.blessings
Yes, God should be left out of explanations if they are explained sufficiently without God. If you insist that "God should not be left out" then you are essentially stating that "God did it" is the answer.So ill ask you a question here:Why does the sun set?As far as what you believe, I am assuming you are a Christian and believe in a Christian definition of God. I assume you do not worship Zeus, Allah, or prescribe to Hindu pantheism.

 

[adren@line]

(RaddSpencer;49695)
Meh.Sure "God did it". However, Christian Scientists (especially the early ones as shown in the video) ask "How did God do it, and how does it speak of His perfectionist nature?".http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_l_jw3Dc7A (Isaac Newton, Blaise Pascal, and Faraday are my favorites).Oh, and next time, if you ask how this website works --- I'll answer "Denver did it" HEHEHEHE.

I dont really trust "Christian scientists", because they apparantly seem to know something about evolution that the rest of the world doesnt. What is more-likely is that they simply like to distort and skew science to fit in with the Bible.As far as perfectionist nature, there is no such thing as perfection.

 

[Jackie D]

(adren@line;49732)
Yes, God should be left out of explanations if they are explained sufficiently without God. If you insist that "God should not be left out" then you are essentially stating that "God did it" is the answer.So ill ask you a question here:Why does the sun set?As far as what you believe, I am assuming you are a Christian and believe in a Christian definition of God. I assume you do not worship Zeus, Allah, or prescribe to Hindu pantheism.
you sidestep quite nicely. heheand yes God did it. But you aren't here to learn about God are you? You are here to dispute and refute God, aren't you? This portion of the forum is for people who do not yet believe but are interested in learning and perhaps finding their way to Him.have a blessed day adren@line