Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Wrangler]

What does begotten in the Bible mean?

The Bible is not Plato forms, where they speak an invented language! The Bible is not a dictionary. Begotten means created, specifically pro-created.

 

[Grailhunter]

May God have mercy on your soul

Sorry but that is what it describes.
Yahweh over shadowed her and she was successfully impregnated.
missionary position

You want to offer up a better detailed scriptural explanation for how she was impregnated?

I like hearing people’s non-scriptural explanations for how it happened and still be able to call Yeshua the Son of God, usually by the time their done Yeshua is just a miracle baby. Yahweh chose the terms Son and Father so we would understand their relationship.

In the Old Testament Yahweh caused women to be pregnant. This is not the same.

 

[RLT63]

The Bible is not Plato forms, where they speak an invented language! The Bible is not a dictionary. Begotten means created, specifically pro-created.

What is the full meaning of Procreate?


reproduce

: to beget or bring forth (offspring) : propagate. intransitive verb. : to beget or bring forth offspring : reproduce. procreation. ˌprō-krē-ˈā-shən.Dec

 

[RLT63]

Sorry but that is what it describes.
Yahweh over shadowed her and she was successfully impregnated.
missionary position

You want to offer up a better detailed scriptural explanation for how she was impregnated?

I like hearing people’s non-scriptural explanations for how it happened and still be able to call Yeshua the Son of God, usually by the time their done Yeshua is just a miracle baby. Yahweh chose the terms Son and Father so we would understand their relationship.

In the Old Testament Yahweh caused women to be pregnant. This is not the same.

I think you are the one reading into scripture

 

[Wrangler]

What is the full meaning of Procreate?


reproduce

: to beget or bring forth (offspring) : propagate. intransitive verb. : to beget or bring forth offspring : reproduce. procreation. ˌprō-krē-ˈā-shən.Dec

Yea, more words to say the same thing. Begotten is a created being, (re)produced, etc.

 

[RLT63]

Yea, more words to say the same thing. Begotten is a created being, (re)produced, etc.

So you are a created being?

 

[Wrangler]

So you are a created being?

Yes but why do you ask? Every man and woman were created from the beginning of time. Jesus’ God directly created every couple at first. Beyond that, he equipped them to create others without his direct hand. Hence, the command to be fruitful and multiply.

God directly creating our original parents does not make them God.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think you are the one reading into scripture

Like I said, lets hear your explanation of how it happened.

 

[RLT63]

Like I said, lets hear your explanation of how it happened.

Jesus was born of a virgin. The Holy Spirit didn't pop Mary's cherry as you are claiming

 

[MonoBiblical]

Not really, unless you think you created your children

They were begun or started by you, if you have any.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Jesus was born of a virgin. The Holy Spirit didn't pop Mary's cherry as you are claiming

It didn't regenerate either.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Interestingly, Jesus was never supposed to be part of that history……his role as Messiah and Redeemer came as a result of Adam’s disobedience

Since the Bible reveals that God orchestrated history to place Jesus at the focal point and elevate him to the highest authority, then the Fall of Adam is included in God's plan.

The word “logos”, has several meanings….
According to Strongs…..it means….

“of speech

1. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
2. what someone has said
   
   1. a word
   2. the sayings of God
   3. decree, mandate or order
   4. of the moral precepts given by God
   5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
   6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim.”

So used as a title, as it is with Jesus, it means that he was God’s spokesman….one who spoke God’s words to man…..and his title applied even before his earthly mission. He was the angelic spokesman for God all through man’s history.
For example, when Abraham and Sarah were visited by three angels to inform them of Isaac’s birth, one of them spoke as “Yahweh….yet the Bible clearly states that “no man has ever seen God” (John 1:18) so the logos has worked at his Father’s side, conveying his words to his earthly servants. (Gen 18)

In John chapter one, the term "logos" means "plan," "promise," or "script."

Our appointed “mediator” is Jesus, so that our prayers can go to God through him.

I agree that Jesus is our mediator. But Jesus taught his disciples to pray directly to the Father.

I don’t think God withholds understanding from anyone to whom he chooses to reveal his truth.

Th

This is serious stuff…..

Amen.

 

[APAK]

Begotten means created.

Unmade they say. They also believe that 2 spirits were implanted at Jesus' conception, one that existed from some place from some being or thing, and the other a brand new human spirit given by the Father, by his Spirit. I wonder actually how they would both get along with each other if all this sci-fi charade were true? Like a psychotic freak show. The human mind of Jesus would be so chaotic, and he would be a severe mental case! He would hear things buzzing and torturing his mind, day and night...

 

[Wrangler]

Unmade they say.

Just invent, not just new, but contradictory definition of words. Not that the trinity is corrupt and corrupts everything it touches - even word meanings. Word meanings have to be historically revised.

Square circles were always a legitimate type of circle. Begotten never had anything to do with making stuff. Dead can mean there is still life in it. God can have a god because I said so. Sure, A is A, Jesus is a man, but A can also be anything else, as well. Like transgenderism, a man can literally be a lamb. Denying this is the carnal mind who doesn’t understand spiritual things … Five is spiritually half of 7. You don’t have eyes to see …. The religion and epistemology of Dr. Seuss.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus said ye must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.

What does it mean to “enter the Kingdom of heaven”? And if humans need to gain such entry, why did God create humans as material creatures on a material earth? Why not create them to dwell in heaven as he did with the angels?
According to Scripture, there are millions of them…..all with free will like we have. If they did not have free will, then satan could never have become God’s adversary, nor could he have tempted his brother angels to join him in rebellion.

So why are we here? Why would the Creator go to all this trouble to carefully prepare this one tiny planet for habitation, teeming with myriad lifeforms, only to have us die and take us to another realm, where we need to have a complete body transformation to go there?
God created the earth to be inhabited (Isa 45:18)….not as a training ground for heaven….there is no scripture explaining this forced scenario.

Its purpose is to save our souls unto eternal life.

Why do we need saving?……and what do we need saving from?

What is eternal life? And where did God purpose for humans to spend it?

Going back to the creation account, we see that God planted a garden and placed the man in it before he created his mate. What was his instruction to them? And what part did death or heaven play in that original instruction?

Just in my own words, but mental assent of our natural mind is not sufficient for eternal life, we need to have received Christ (His Spirit) into our heart/spirit. In this way we become a new (renewed) and sanctified spiritual creature, a citizen of heaven, born from above...being reborn spiritually. Becoming and receiving a new man, which is a spiritual man, and thus fit for heaven because the new man is of heaven and made of heaven's substance, think we could say. Our old natural man of the flesh is of the earth, earthy, like Adam and cannot inherit eternal life.

Logically this makes no sense at all. Why would humans need to be reborn? What was wrong with their first birth that God created them to have and to ”fill the earth” with their children?

Does this mean that the “old man” was a mistake? Did God create something defective? And was becoming a “new man” something that all Christians had to experience so that they could go to heaven?
If angels did not need to be reborn, but were created in heaven, why did he put us humans on earth?

Please tell me how “the meek shall inherit the earth” if all good Christians go to heaven?

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus was born of a virgin. The Holy Spirit didn't pop Mary's cherry as you are claiming

I did not say anything about the Holy Spirit. You may be thinking of someone else.

And born of a virgin.....how?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Having a mental belief in God without actually receiving Christ into one's being, is like the Israelites under the Law.......having an intellectual belief in God and being obedient to His laws will have certain blessings for this life but doesn't save unto eternal life.

I guess we need to understand why we need to “believe” and what that entails? (James 2:18-20)

It is certainly not an intellectual experience, but one needs to be a “spiritual” person to attain it….it isn’t something we are born with, but as we grow and attain maturity we can develop “spirituality” and it gets nurtured and it grows. But someone needs to plant the seed. For many, this is passed on from parents to children, but no parent can guarantee that their children will attain to the faith and actually keep it alive.
Even God himself had rebellious and disobedient children.…and he is the perfect Father. So, was free will a mistake?

What is eternal life? That is a misnomer actually, it is not “eternal” but “everlasting”….IOW, it simply means “life without end“, even though it has a beginning. Eternal means “without beginning or end” and pertains exclusively to the Father, who is uncreated…..he is the one who “begat” a son. All “begotten” creatures need a ‘begetter’ who existed before them and who brought them into existence. The word used with regard to Jesus is not different to the one used of any other creature. “Firstborn” is also used with the same word for other creatures. But these words do not just pertain to Jesus‘ human birth, but to his figurative “birth” in heaven as God’s “firstborn”….God as many “sons” but none are as unique as his “firstborn”…..the only son who is a direct and only creation of his Father….the “firstborn of ALL creation”. (Col 1:15)

Now, if this was not the relationship between them, then why did they promote it as such? Why not just have names that distinguished them? Those who accept the trinity as truth, have to do a lot of tap dancing to avoid the verses that prove Jesus cannot be God incarnate……none the least of which is the fact that God is immortal, but the son is not. You cannot kill an immortal God. If Jesus did not die the exact same death as Adam, the ransom is not paid and we are all still condemned.

If anyone has not yet received Christ and been born of Him, I hope they will be encouraged to seek Him:

To be scripturally accurate, no one can volunteer to be “born again”…..it is God’s choosing. He is the one who anoints his chosen ones with Holy Spirit, giving them a token in advance of their “adoption” as sons.

If you like, Ephesians ch 1 is a good chapter to unpack…..would you like to explore it with me?

Act 17:26-27

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

This is Paul’s appeal to the “men of Athens”…..gentile unbelievers. These were educated philosophers to whom Paul could speak with acceptance because he was a highly educated Pharisee. He was assigned as “an apostle to the nations” because the educated ones would not have been swayed by humble uneducated fishermen. (Acts 4:13)

Yes, the evangelical born again church is in a mess, and it's devastating. The devil has been busy seeking who he may devour, drawing many into deceptions and sins. I believe we are seeing the falling away and nearing the return of the Lord and end of this world.

Yes indeed……the “wheat and the weeds” would undergo a complete separation before Christ returns as judge, and passes sentence….we are in the “last days” of this wicked world, and “Christianity” is more divided and contentious than ever…..satan was always going to sow his “weeds” in the world, as Jesus and his apostles foretold, but it is their works that expose them….they will be “part of the world”….all bound up in politics and conflicts, (John 17:16; James 4:4) and in their participation of pagan celebrations which they justify with a thin “Christian” veneer so that the ‘greed fest’ just passed could be indulged with over-eating, over-drinking and commercially sickening like all the other adopted occasions. (2 Cor 8:14-18) It goes from one event to the next, and people are led along like lambs to the slaughter, whether they can afford it or not.

In many secular countries like my own, these occasions are merely commercial and traditional. They are not religious though many pretend that they are. Truth is sacrificed for pleasure and self indulgence.

 

[Lizbeth]

Logically this makes no sense at all.

Spiritual truth of scripture can't be apprehended with logic. We need the Holy Spirit and mind of Christ to grasp things of God.

 

[Lizbeth]

But someone needs to plant the seed.

The LORD must plant the seed.......we need to be born of His seed. That is the starting point for the Christian walk. Imperishable seed, because it is of His imperishable/eternal Spirit.......and that is what makes us spiritual/eternal, ie, of His Spirit, born of Him.

Eternal life really begins when we are born of Him. Eternal as in spiritual/heavenly and having no end.

 

[Wrangler]

Spiritual truth of scripture can't be apprehended with logic.

Appeal to Ignorance. We are not required to abandon our god-given reasoning mind to embrace spiritual truth.