Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus!

[justaname]

page 109

What does the infallible teaching, "Outside the Church there is no salvation" known in Latin as "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus!" mean?

Venerable Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadam, Allocution against the Errors of Rationalism and Indifferentism, December 9, 1854 "It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord."


This is cited from http://www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/book.htm#cqa109


The Church's understanding of the significance of the phrase: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is expressed in its Catechism of the Catholic Church, 846-848, 851 as follows: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" - How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: "Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 14). This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).
This is cited from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus



Scripturally it is taught: Romans 10:8-13


But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Yet it seems this is not what is taught by Catholics.

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics andschismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."


Pope Pius XII (1939–1958), Encyclical Humani Generis, August 12, 1950: "Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation."
Pope Pius XII (1939–1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth."
Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."

I can say with assurance there is only one Christian church. I would not be so bold as to say all Christians must be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

 

[Selene]

page 109

What does the infallible teaching, "Outside the Church there is no salvation" known in Latin as "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus!" mean?

Venerable Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadam, Allocution against the Errors of Rationalism and Indifferentism, December 9, 1854 "It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord."


This is cited from http://www.catholicb...book.htm#cqa109

First of all, that website is not a ROMAN Catholic website. It is a TRADITIONAL Catholic website. The Traditional Catholics were excommunicated by the late Pope John Paul II for going against the Second Vatican Council and for disobedience to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. When a group of people are excommunicated, they are no longer recognized as part of the Roman Catholic Church.

Haven't you noticed in that weblink that they called themselves "TRUE Roman Catholics" and then criticized the Second Vatican Council in the end? A Roman Catholic never call themselves "TRUE Roman Catholic" because there is only ONE Rome Catholic Church and they don't go against the Pope or the ecumenal council such as Vatican II.

Furthermore, the Traditional Catholics only told half the truth. Below is the entire quote from Pope Pius IX and notice what I placed in bold.

“Certainly we must hold it as of faith that no one can be saved outside of the apostolic Roman Church, that this is the only ark of salvation, that the one who does not enter this is going to perish in the deluge. But nevertheless we must likewise hold it as certain that those who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, will never be charged with any guilt on this account before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as he is (see 1 John 3:2) shall we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins divine mercy with divine justice.”

What I placed in bold is saying that those who are ignorant of the true religion will not be charged with any guilt. God is the only one who can judge.

The Church's understanding of the significance of the phrase: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is expressed in its Catechism of the Catholic Church, 846-848, 851 as follows: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" - How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: "Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 14). This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).
This is cited from http://en.wikipedia....iam_nulla_salus

This quote is taken out of context. This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states in its entirety. I also provided the weblink at the bottom.

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."[sup]320[/sup]

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"[sup]321[/sup]

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."[sup]322[/sup] Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."[sup]323[/sup] With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."[sup]324[/sup]

The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[sup]325[/sup]
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[sup]326[/sup] "the first to hear the Word of God."[sup]327[/sup] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[sup]328[/sup] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[sup]329[/sup]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[sup]330[/sup]

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[sup]331[/sup]
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."[sup]332[/sup]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.[sup]333[/sup]
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.[sup]334[/sup]

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[sup]335[/sup] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[sup]336[/sup]
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[sup]337[/sup]
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[sup]338[/sup]


http://www.scborrome...123a9p3.htm#841

As you can see from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, she actually bonds herself with others who call themselves Christians despite the fact that they are not in union with the Pope. She also bonds herself with the Jews, Muslims, and non-Christians. One of the reasons why the Traditional Catholics were excommunicated was because they preached that ONLY Catholics were saved, and this went against the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Under the heading "Outside the Church, there is no salvation" it was referring ONLY to atheism and other pagan religions. Catholics do not believe that these religions can bring salvation. It does not include the Protestants who believe in Jesus Christ, the Jews, and the Muslims. Catholics believe that Jews and Muslims believe in God the Father - the same God that Christians believe despite the fact that they don't know His nature and His Son Jesus Christ.

Yet it seems this is not what is taught by Catholics.

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Again, this is taken out of context. This letter from Pope Boniface VIII was addressed to King Philip of France. At that time, there were no Protestants because the Reformation did not come until the 16th century. The Orthodox Church also did not split from the Roman Catholic Church until 1378. So, at that time, only the Roman Catholic Church existed. And this letter was not even referring to the Jews or Muslims because the letter was addressed to the King of France who was Roman Catholic but went against the Pope. The rest of what you posted is the same way - all taken out of context. If you truely want to know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, especially the doctrine of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus make sure that the website is a Roman Catholic website.

 

[neophyte]

2nd Peter 1:20 - "This, then, you must understand first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is made by private interpretation"
God never intented mankind to use the Bible as its sole rule to salvation, this is the reason Jesus left us His Apostolic Teaching Church for us, not the Holy Bible, it was until a much later time that His Church made Canonical which writings would compile the completed Holy Bible.
" The house of God, which is the Church of the living God,the pillar and mainstay of the truth" [ 1st. Timothy 3: 14 ]

" He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me" [ Luke 10:16 ]

" Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" [ Matthew 28:20 ].

"As the Father has sent me,I also send you" [ John 20: 21 ]

Christ's Catholic/ Apostolic Church is absolutely in need by most of us who just read the Bible by'' private interpretation and resuting in as many interpretations as there are minds " [ Luther ,in his late years wrote discouragingly about this problem, which is much worse today with approximately 35,000 different non-Catholic churches,all with conflicting interpretations , while all claiming to have the "one True Interpretation " , only One has the correct interpretation and that is that one true apostolic Church form by Jesus on His Teaching Apostles and their Successors.

The "keys' were given only to Peter by Jesus . "........ And I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; [ THE FOLLOWING IS VERY IMPORTANT ] -and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [ Matthew 16: 15-19 ]

Jesus wants all of us in His Apostolic/Catholic, EO Church -as we find in this verse - " ........... ; one Lord, one faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all " [ Eph. 4: 3-6 ]

" And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them " [ Ezechiel 34: 23 ] Yes Jesus is our Chief-Shepher but in His sabbatical to heaven He left St. Peter , who was made shepherd/Pope by Jesus Himself
" Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Feed my lambs ... feed my Sheep.. feed my sheep [ John 21: 15- 17 ]

" That all may be one , even as thou, Father, in me and I in thee; that they also may be one in us " [ John 17:21 ]

Thank you Selene, well said. It seems as if none of the anti-Catholics ever want to seek 'the Truth".

 

[Foreigner]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[sup]330[/sup]

-- Islam teaches that Jesus was merely a prophet and not God.
Muslims do not under any circumstances believe that Jesus is Lord, let alone John 14:6.

Therefore there is no way to rectify or sanction the relationship as one of acceptance.
It matters not that both Catholics and Muslims believe in the one true God, or "hold to the faith of Abraham" or "adore the one Merciful God."

If Muslims see Jesus as just a prophet and refuse to accept/acknowledge that He is God and they need to give their lives to HIm to be saved, then the "plan of salvation" is without merit.


.

 

[Sr.Brandon]

I noticed under the Muslim topic that it states that the plan of salvation includes them. This is not stating they are saved only that plans are in place. Is this right? Or is there a different meaning going on here?

 

[Foreigner]

In order for a Muslim to be saved, they would have to leave their faith or at least renounce what it believes.

 

[Sr.Brandon]

It is interesting to me that the point that the information's source was objected to on the basis that this group was excommunicated by the Pope.
What does excommunicated mean?
So, because they wouldn't submit to the churches rulings they were excommunicated by the Pope. This sounds exact like what the opening post was pointing out. If you don't bow down your out.
I think this also shows that the 'one true and apostolic church' is more splintered than in unity with itself. What with the Orthodox breaking away, Protestants breaking aways, kings breaking away, traditional catholics breaking away, and much much more.
What is one to think of unity within Catholicism when one knows all this history?

In order for a Muslim to be saved, they would have to leave their faith or at least renounce what it believes.

Are you speaking from a Catholic perspective, because I would really like know the official Catholic stance on whether or not Catholics believe Muslims will be in heaven without believing in Jesus Christ as God first, therefore rejecting Islam first.

 

[Foreigner]

Are you speaking from a Catholic perspective, because I would really like know the official Catholic stance on whether or not Catholics believe Muslims will be in heaven without believing in Jesus Christ as God first, therefore rejecting Islam first.

-- If the Catholic perspective is that Muslims will be in heaven without first receiving Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then their perspective is wrong.
Hopefully that is not the case.

 

[justaname]

First of all, that website is not a ROMAN Catholic website. It is a TRADITIONAL Catholic website. The Traditional Catholics were excommunicated by the late Pope John Paul II for going against the Second Vatican Council and for disobedience to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. When a group of people are excommunicated, they are no longer recognized as part of the Roman Catholic Church.

Haven't you noticed in that weblink that they called themselves "TRUE Roman Catholics" and then criticized the Second Vatican Council in the end? A Roman Catholic never call themselves "TRUE Roman Catholic" because there is only ONE Rome Catholic Church and they don't go against the Pope or the ecumenal council such as Vatican II.

Furthermore, the Traditional Catholics only told half the truth. Below is the entire quote from Pope Pius IX and notice what I placed in bold.

“Certainly we must hold it as of faith that no one can be saved outside of the apostolic Roman Church, that this is the only ark of salvation, that the one who does not enter this is going to perish in the deluge. But nevertheless we must likewise hold it as certain that those who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, will never be charged with any guilt on this account before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as he is (see 1 John 3:2) shall we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins divine mercy with divine justice.”

What I placed in bold is saying that those who are ignorant of the true religion will not be charged with any guilt. God is the only one who can judge.




This quote is taken out of context. This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states in its entirety. I also provided the weblink at the bottom.

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."[sup]320[/sup]

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"[sup]321[/sup]

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."[sup]322[/sup] Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."[sup]323[/sup] With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."[sup]324[/sup]

The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[sup]325[/sup]
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[sup]326[/sup] "the first to hear the Word of God."[sup]327[/sup] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[sup]328[/sup] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[sup]329[/sup]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[sup]330[/sup]

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[sup]331[/sup]
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."[sup]332[/sup]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.[sup]333[/sup]
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.[sup]334[/sup]

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[sup]335[/sup] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[sup]336[/sup]
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[sup]337[/sup]
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[sup]338[/sup]


http://www.scborrome...123a9p3.htm#841

As you can see from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, she actually bonds herself with others who call themselves Christians despite the fact that they are not in union with the Pope. She also bonds herself with the Jews, Muslims, and non-Christians. One of the reasons why the Traditional Catholics were excommunicated was because they preached that ONLY Catholics were saved, and this went against the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Under the heading "Outside the Church, there is no salvation" it was referring ONLY to atheism and other pagan religions. Catholics do not believe that these religions can bring salvation. It does not include the Protestants who believe in Jesus Christ, the Jews, and the Muslims. Catholics believe that Jews and Muslims believe in God the Father - the same God that Christians believe despite the fact that they don't know His nature and His Son Jesus Christ.





Again, this is taken out of context. This letter from Pope Boniface VIII was addressed to King Philip of France. At that time, there were no Protestants because the Reformation did not come until the 16th century. The Orthodox Church also did not split from the Roman Catholic Church until 1378. So, at that time, only the Roman Catholic Church existed. And this letter was not even referring to the Jews or Muslims because the letter was addressed to the King of France who was Roman Catholic but went against the Pope. The rest of what you posted is the same way - all taken out of context. If you truely want to know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, especially the doctrine of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus make sure that the website is a Roman Catholic website.

What I did was cite the exact website I did get the quotes from so there would be no confusion.

What I hold in question is the decision in Vatican 2

He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[sup]336[/sup]

Also the statement by Pope Eugene is pretty clear
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics andschismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her;

Those split from the Roman faith fall into the schismatics category.

Also, the main reason for posting this was to get a response so we could have civil discussion, not to bash a particular denomination.

This is by Pope Gregory

Pope Gregory XVI (1831–1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter Studio (on mixed marriages), 5-6, May 27, 1832: "You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the Apostles, martyred Saint Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: 'Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God.' Moreover, Saint Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: 'Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ' (Epsitle 141). Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise Saint Gregory the Great, who expressly testifies that this is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: 'The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved' (Moral. in Job, 16.5). Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of the Lateran IV, these things are written: 'There is one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved.' Finally, the same dogma is expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use (Creed of the Council of Trent), but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses (cf. Gregory XIII, Profession 'Sanctissimus') and that which other Eastern Catholics use (cf. Benedict XIV, Profession 'Nuper ad Nos')… We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies."

Finally


The Second Vatican Council further explained the status of non-Catholic Christians ("separated brethren") as follows (Unitatis Redintegratio, 3):

But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ. The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation. It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church. Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those to whom He has given new birth into one body, and whom He has quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one body of Christ into which all those must be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God…​

 

[Selene]

-- Islam teaches that Jesus was merely a prophet and not God.
Muslims do not under any circumstances believe that Jesus is Lord, let alone John 14:6.

Therefore there is no way to rectify or sanction the relationship as one of acceptance.
It matters not that both Catholics and Muslims believe in the one true God, or "hold to the faith of Abraham" or "adore the one Merciful God."

If Muslims see Jesus as just a prophet and refuse to accept/acknowledge that He is God and they need to give their lives to HIm to be saved, then the "plan of salvation" is without merit.

According to the Holy Bible, Jesus IS a prophet (See Matthew 21:11).

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

The problem with BOTH the Jews and Muslims (let's not blame only the Muslims) is that they are ignorant of the nature of God. Unlike Christians, we believe that Jesus is God.

I noticed under the Muslim topic that it states that the plan of salvation includes them. This is not stating they are saved only that plans are in place. Is this right? Or is there a different meaning going on here?

No where in the Catechism does it say that they are saved. It simply stated that the plan of salvation includes them. Salvation comes only from God. And the duty of the Church is to spread the Gospel to all people.

It is interesting to me that the point that the information's source was objected to on the basis that this group was excommunicated by the Pope.
What does excommunicated mean?

Excommunication means that they are no longer part of the Roman Catholic Church. The late Pope John Paul II excommunicated these groups of Catholics (often called "Traditional Catholics") because they disobeyed the Pope, went against the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and protested the Second Vatican Council. Excommunication is not a splinter or a separation from the Catholic Church. It is a "cutting off" from the Catholic Church. When one is excommunicated, he/she no longer has any standing with the Roman Catholic Church.

Are you speaking from a Catholic perspective, because I would really like know the official Catholic stance on whether or not Catholics believe Muslims will be in heaven without believing in Jesus Christ as God first, therefore rejecting Islam first.

Yes, I am Roman Catholic. The official Church standing is that salvation comes only from God alone. It is God who decides who will be in Heaven or Hell. No human (not even the Catholic Church) makes that decision. Our mission as a Church is to spread the Gospel to all people (which also includes the Muslims) so that they can come to know Christ.

 

[aspen]

seems like this thread was only started to pick a fight.

 

[Foreigner]

Also, the main reason for posting this was to get a response so we could have civil discussion, not to bash a particular denomination.

-- But the very post itself does just that.

 

[justaname]

seems like this thread was only started to pick a fight.

No again it was posted to gain a response from a lay perspective. I will actually request to lock the thread if it seems it is going south.

John 13:35

35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

 

[Foreigner]

According to the Holy Bible, Jesus IS a prophet (See Matthew 21:11).

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

The problem with BOTH the Jews and Muslims (let's not blame only the Muslims) is that they are ignorant of the nature of God. Unlike Christians, we believe that Jesus is God.

No where in the Catechism does it say that they are saved. It simply stated that the plan of salvation includes them. Salvation comes only from God. And the duty of the Church is to spread the Gospel to all people.

-- So the statement l cited is simply an acknowledgment that the Catholic church sees Muslims as lost and needing Jesus Christ as their Savior?
Does the Catholic church actually reach out to Muslims and let them know that they are lost and need to accept Jesus as their savior?

Because I know that there are several Denominations/faiths that get together to celebrate their commonalities, but the intereaction always ends there.

 

[Selene]

Also the statement by Pope Eugene is pretty clear
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics andschismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her;

For some reason, I got cut off from the computer before I could finish off the rest of my response to you. Pope Eugene IV addressed this letter to the Catholics who left the Church. So, again, it is taken out of context. As the Bible says, a person who comes to the knowledge of the Truth (which is Christ and His Church) and then decides to leave that Truth for somethng that is wrong may lose their salvation. The Church NEVER teaches that Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, or any other religion other than Christianity will lead to salvation.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

It is always better to read the entire letter instead of parts of it. Below is a weblink showing the entire letter in its entirety.

http://catholicism.org/cantate-domino.html

-- So the statement l cited is simply an acknowledgment that the Catholic church sees Muslims as lost and needing Jesus Christ as their Savior?
Does the Catholic church actually reach out to Muslims and let them know that they are lost and need to accept Jesus as their savior?

Because I know that there are several Denominations/faiths that get together to celebrate their commonalities, but the intereaction always ends there.

The Catholic Church sees in both the Jews and Muslims that together we worship the same God the Father, but the Jews and the Muslims are ignorant of God's true nature. They do not know that God is actually three persons in one God.

Do we reach out to Muslims? Yes, we try to. Unfortunately, in the Muslim countries, it is illegal to evangelize and not very good for Muslim converts. Muslim converts are in danger of being killed once it is known that they have converted to Christianity.

 

[aspen]

Justaname - I see you (foreigner, as well) as a fellow member of the body of Christ - I have no problem talking about the Catholic Church or any Pope, but your OP seemed a bit divisive - I am glad you clarified.

 

[justaname]

Sorry if it seemed divisive, but I wanted it to be a bit provocative as it would generate a rapid response. But to the subject at hand and the Vatican II official stance of the RCC:

Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those to whom He has given new birth into one body, and whom He has quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one body of Christ into which all those must be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God…

How can one be certain that the RCC has that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow?

 

[Foreigner]

The Catholic Church sees in both the Jews and Muslims that together we worship the same God the Father, but the Jews and the Muslims are ignorant of God's true nature. They do not know that God is actually three persons in one God.

Do we reach out to Muslims? Yes, we try to. Unfortunately, in the Muslim countries, it is illegal to evangelize and not very good for Muslim converts. Muslim converts are in danger of being killed once it is known that they have converted to Christianity.

-- What you say about Jews and Muslims is exacly correct.
It is not only illegal to evangelize in Muslim countries, but I was in Saudi Arabia when Bibles were confiscated while going through customs.

My thoughts were of groups that say they do "outreach" (I'm not speaking specifically about Catholics) and they meet with other religions and focus on the commonality of their faiths. That is the easy part and that is all they do.
But none of them ever want to sit down and discuss the 3rd rail of our faith's foundations - Jesus

I have spoken more than once individually with Muslims and in friendly terms discussed why Jesus may be considered only a prophet by them, but in actuality He is God.

The discussions never actually lead to conversions, but they are civil and they planted seeds.

The only time I have ever had tension about it when speaking with a Muslim is when they cited in the Koran where Jesus was born able to speak and he comforted and instructed Mary even as she held right after His birth. I asked how that could possibly be true.
He said "because the Koran says it." I mentioned that the Bible doesn't mention that and it was quoting eye witnesses so how could a book written 600 years after that possibly know that. Yeah, that didn't go over well.

 

[neophyte]

justaname,When Jesus formed His Church He wanted "unity" Jesus commanded His Apostles "only" because only they had the Fullness of the Faith , He taught only them " Go therefore ,and make disciples of all nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" [ Matt. 28: 19-20 ] Everyone they taught believed in the very same Teachings that Jesus taught His twelve [ unity ] up until circa 16th century. Then man with His God-given free- will messed it up.Bodily unity does matter and Jesus wants us all as members in His One True Church that He founded on St. Peter/ Successors. - Take a look at Matt 18: 15-18 and we see that it isn't the self-proclaimed members / believers that make up His one True Church because in that verse we see where the brother, after being taken to his" brothers" with no results Jesus then tells them to take that brother to the "church" , but ask yourself which church? It has to be a 'church' that was existing THEN not all those different man-made churches that were invented many hundred of years later
.
In that verse of Matt. 18: 15-18 one can almost hear the note of amazement in Christ's voice when He said, " If he refuses to listen even to the church...... [ implying that for someone to ignore the church--His Apostolic Church-- [ because it existed then as now, to the end ] would be the height of stupidity and foolishness.

Bodily unity does matter. Moreover, the more intense our spiritual unity is, the more deeply it matters. Try telling the bride and groom on their wedding night that, if they are spiritually united, bodily union does not matter. Very well then, in an analogical way, what Catholic faith aims at is both spiritual and bodily unity. Paul tells us there is one spirit and one body (Eph 4:4). That is why the sacrament of Communion is a physical, bodily sacrament, as well as a spiritual one. Jesus does not instruct us just to think communal thoughts and pray communal prayers. Beyond a unity of heart, he also commands a physical act of unity that partakes of his physical being: His words, after all, are "Take, eat. This is my body," not "Take, eat. This is my spirit."

 

[justaname]

First of all the church did not come into its fullness until after Pentecost. Second there is still only one true body of faith, and God recognizes all of His children, no matter what denomination the may be categorized by on a human level.

What about the church that went to Africa, are they not apostolic?

Next how do we know the Spirt of the Lord did not want separation during the reformation? Did God want us selling Heaven? Did God want us selling indulgences? What about the separation of the Eastern Orthodox? During that time the RCC stance was they, the Eastern churches, were not saved. That was probably the main reason Martian Luther started the reformation to begin with.

Now, truly there is one Christian body. It is the Catholics that do not view it that way, thereby a closed eucharist. I, a baptized Cristian, can not partake in the Catholic eucharist (RCC rules). If we Christians are not allowed to commune with Catholics, then we are viewed as different, and the true stance of the Roman faith is we are not saved either!

Go through what it takes to be saved as a Catholic. Part of it it partaking in the sacraments. If we, as baptized Christians are not allowed to partake in the sacraments, then how can we be saved from a Catholic view?