Ezekiel 37 I can't wrap my head around this, any help would be a blessing

[stunnedbygrace]

There is a Dispie teachings that reserves a place in the kingdom for unbelieving Jews.

Of course, if a Jew responds to the gospel and comes to Christ...he is most welcome...since the offer from God is first to the JEW THEN to the Gentile.

But this doctrine makes it....First to the Gentile and THEN to the Jew. This is backwards, of course.


The error stems also from the rendering of ALL Israel. Messianics fight tooth and nail over this part of the word that they have misunderstood.


When Ephraim, which is the fullness of the Gentiles, comes in THEN ALL ISRAEL will be saved. How? Well, the coming in of the nations into Christ completes Israel. The Jews are already represented in the kingdom. It is the time of the nations. After that the Lord returns.


Jesus said....this gospel must be preached in ALL the nations THEN the end will come (since ALL Israel is completed by the Gentiles)

What Jesus did NOT say is...First this gospel must go to all nations THEN the gospel will finally be preached in Judea.

NO, Rather the gospel message began in Judea and then into all the world. The Gentiles are the remnant of Ephraim. Once Ephraim is joined to Judah....the 2 shall be ONE stick in the hand of God and Jesus will be shepherd over them.

It is a Messianic Jewish myth that God has not already redeemed all nations. The Jews are not like a special race of people that are destined to rule over the nations. This is a confusion based on self-interest.

The SAINTS (coming from all nations) will rule with Christ as His Bride over the nations.

Just because we are today called "the nations" does NOT mean we are forever limited to "the nations." This is the error of many Jewish believers.

Jesus said that many will come from the nations and sit down with the OT saints....where? The New Jerusalem.

Does self-interest inherit the kingdom of God? God forbid!

a place in the kingdom for unbelieving jews? No, scripture indicates they will believe in the future.

you are always careful to not condemn unbelievers but leave it to God who will have a place and where. But concerning the jews, you don't seem to have that same mercy.

 

[Episkopos]

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city,
and appeared unto many.

But Ez. 37 goes beyond this. Although it is a further sign....not of the natural...but of the spiritual.

 

[Hidden In Him]

From the Spirit...the Spirit that gives life to His people.

Ok. Well it's good.

But let me ask you: While I agree with your spiritual applications, why do you reject the literal one? You don't hold that literal Israel is going to be attacked by the Antichrist during the end-times, and have to flee into the wilderness for survival? (Revelation 12:14)

 

[Episkopos]

a place in the kingdom for unbelieving jews? No, scripture indicates they will believe in the future.

Where?

you are always careful to not condemn unbelievers but leave it to God who will have a place and where. But concerning the jews, you don't seem to have that same mercy.

I have an equal mercy. I just don't worship Jews or natural Israel as many idolators do.

There are many idolators in Judaism...and this idolatry is brought over into the faith of Jesus. And many gentiles are likewise seduced. Beware the concision.

 

[Episkopos]

Ok. Well it's good.

But let me ask you: While I agree with your spiritual applications, why do you reject the literal one? You don't hold that literal Israel is going to be attacked by the Antichrist during the end-times, and have to flee into the wilderness for survival? (Revelation 12:14)

OK In 70 AD there was a new diaspora. Titus entered the temple and the Romans desecrated the holiest place. This happened LITERALLY. What is yet to take place is the spiritual equivalent.


Now if there is a future copy of the 70 AD desecration...the temple would have to be rebuilt. And normal OT Judaism would have first to be re-instated. But this is far-fetched. It is also what the Jews want. Will God grant their desire?

Of course it is possible....but very highly improbable.

God is Spirit. His kingdom is according to the Spirit. The people who reject Him are carnal and natural. So who is going to bend to whom?

I think that people will have to conform to God. I don't see God conforming to the idolatrous desires of a self-interested people.

 

[larry2]

Any kind of topic about Israel brings the Dispensationalists out to play.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city,
and appeared unto many.

But Ez. 37 goes beyond this. Although it is a further sign....not of the natural...but of the spiritual.

Oh no, you've become a Dispensationalist? Next you'll be telling me to not eat of the tree of good & evil; too late.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think that people will have to conform to God. I don't see God conforming to the idolatrous desires of a self-interested people.

I'm not particularly a Gung Ho Israel supporter either, at least not radically so. But are they not His chosen people and didn't He say His covenant with them would be an everlasting covenant? I believe this is the very reason why literal Israel will play the major part in the end-time drama that plays out. Satan will try to exterminate them because they gave birth to the Christ-child, as the verse states. But the Living God will vindicate the nation of Israel from being completely annihilated. Hence the 144,000, with 12,000 being from each tribe.

OK In 70 AD there was a new diaspora. Titus entered the temple and the Romans desecrated the holiest place. This happened LITERALLY. What is yet to take place is the spiritual equivalent.

The desecration in 70 A.D. didn't fulfill all that was promised in passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. You sound almost preterist in your interpretation here. I'm not coming down on you contentiously or anything, but I would have to take exception with you on this.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm not particularly a Gung Ho Israel supporter either, at least not radically so. But are they not His chosen people and didn't He say His covenant with them would be an everlasting covenant? I believe this is the very reason why literal Israel will play the major part in the end-time drama that plays out. Satan will try to exterminate them because they gave birth to the Christ-child, as the verse states. But the Living God will vindicate the nation of Israel from being completely annihilated. Hence the 144,000, with 12,000 being from each tribe.

You don't seek for the living among the dead. You are missing the spiritual nature of Israel here.

I went to a youth camp when I was like 12 or so. At the end everyone received a badge of rank based on a native Canadian attribute...tenderfoot, brave, tracker, hunter and chief....as I recall.

It was held in a barn with the monitors dressed in Indian garb. Very dramatic.

I got tracker and my brother got brave.

I see the rewards of the kingdom like this. The saints will be revealed as tribe members. Every tribe will have it's own attributes.

The desecration in 70 A.D. didn't fulfill all that was promised in passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. You sound almost preterist in your interpretation here. I'm not coming down on you contentiously or anything, but I would have to take exception with you on this.

I am using the historic event as an .....historic event! Not a theology as the preterists. The fact that Titus' legions brought a pig's head into the holiest place and did terrible things there...is historic.

But it must be remembered that God is Spirit. History in the natural is NOT the fulfillment. First the natural...and THEN the spiritual. Not the other way around.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You don't seek for the living among the dead. You are missing the spiritual nature of Israel here.

I went to a youth camp when I was like 12 or so. At the end everyone received a badge of rank based on a native Canadian attribute...tenderfoot, brave, tracker, hunter and chief....as I recall.

It was held in a barn with the monitors dressed in Indian garb. Very dramatic.

I got tracker and my brother got brave.

I see the rewards of the kingdom like this. The saints will be revealed as tribe members. Every tribe will have it's own attributes.


I am using the historic even as a .....historic event. Not a theology as the preterists. The fact that Titus' legions brought a pig's head into the holiest place and did terrible things there...is historic.

Bit it must be remembered that God is Spirit. History in the natural is NOT the fulfillment. First the natural...and THEN the spiritual. Not the other way around.

What was your answer to that God stated His covenant with Israel would be an everlasting covenant?

 

[Episkopos]

What was your answer to that God stated His covenant with Israel would be an everlasting covenant?

With Israel, yes. According to the Spirit. Not all are of Israel that are Israel. But God said to the majority...You shall NOT enter My rest.

Not all are of Christ either that are Christian.

That is the way it is with humanity.

 

[Hidden In Him]

With Israel, yes. According to the Spirit. Not all are of Israel that are Israel. But God said to the majority...You shall NOT enter My rest.

Not all are of Christ either that are Christian.

That is the way it is with humanity.

I agree. But now what about the possibility of those who remain of Israel during the time of the Antichrist converting to Christ? If His covenant with literal Israel was an everlasting covenant, and Satan tries to exterminate them, the suggestion from Revelation 12:14 is that God Himself helps and protects those still alive. This would suggest that He will consider them as belonging to Him at this time. Is it not possible that all that remain alive of literal Israel will recognize Jesus as their true Messiah, seeing as how all the prophesies of the New Testament and the Book of Revelations have indeed come to pass?

 

[Episkopos]

I agree. But now what about the possibility of those who remain of Israel during the time of the Antichrist converting to Christ?

Of course people can turn to God at any time.

But this idea that somehow this is what the prophesy is about...I don't buy it.

The Jews don't need a special invitation...again.

If His covenant with literal Israel was an everlasting covenant, and Satan tries to exterminate them, the suggestion from Revelation 12:14 is that God Himself helps and protects those still alive. This would suggest that He will consider them as belonging to Him at this time. Is it not possible that all that remain alive of literal Israel will recognize Jesus as their true Messiah, seeing as how all the prophesies of the New Testament and the Book of Revelations have indeed come to pass?

Of course....the few remaining Jews can turn to Christ. But that is not what the prophesy is about. Quite the opposite.

The prophesy is about Gentiles becoming Ephraim and completing Israel.

Read what Paul says about this...

Rom. 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Who persists? God? Or the Jews? The errant doctrine has God doing the repenting....not the Jews. A few will repent...but NEVER the whole nation. Paul would have stated any mass conversion by God at this point in his explanation.

Paul wanted desperately for his kinsmen to turn to Christ. If he really was preaching a mass conversion at a later time for unbelieving Judaism as Dispies claim...he would have said it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The prophesy is about Gentiles becoming Ephraim and completing Israel.

If you would, then explain all of Revelation 12:13-17 en todo for me. Take your time. I have to check out for awhile anyway.

Rom. 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Who persists? God? Or the Jews? The errant doctrine has God doing the repenting....not the Jews. A few will repent...but NEVER the whole nation. Paul would have stated any mass conversion by God at this point in his explanation.

But you have to admit that you are interpreting this verse as automatically NOT referring to Jews when this does not have to be the case. You just said yourself that the few remaining Jews could turn to Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think you have some things you aren't seeing, some verses you aren't seeing, even in the same chapter you have quoted from.

 

[Episkopos]

If you would, then explain all of Revelation 12:13-17 en todo for me. Take your time. I have to check out for awhile anyway.


But you have to admit that you are interpreting this verse as automatically NOT referring to Jews when this does not have to be the case. You just said yourself that the few remaining Jews could turn to Christ.

It's possible....but that would be up to them. We do have free will. I just think it is a mistake to consider that inevitable....or "en masse" according to a prophesy that is aimed at the nations.

You could start a new thread for the other thing...I would join in Lord willing.

 

[Enoch111]

This is the Messianic take on things that denies that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ. It is Dispensationalist. It denies that the 2 flocks coming together is the One New Man. And it denies Jesus as the Head of this Body.

Christians should not put their own spin on Bible prophecy. What I have summarized is stated there in plain simple language by Ezekiel. This prophecy has nothing to do with Christ and the Church, which is His Body. Indeed the Church was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets, as clearly stated by Paul, and as revealed to Paul.

The Church is not future Israel, neither is future Israel the Church. The 12 tribes will be literally settled in greater Israel, and no amount of fantasizing will convert those 12 tribes into the Church.

EZEKIEL 48
1 Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.

2 And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.

3 And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.

4 And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh.

5 And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim.

6 And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.

7 And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.

8 And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.

9 The oblation that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be of five and twenty thousand in length, and of ten thousand in breadth...

22 Moreover from the possession of the Levites, and from the possession of the city, being in the midst of that which is the prince's, between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin, shall be for the prince. [David]

23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion.

24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion.

25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion.

26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion.

27 And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion.

28And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea.

29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.

Now, the question for Christians is this: IF the LORD God (or the Lord GOD) says that this is how the land of Israel will be divided under Christ, who are we to question God's plan for redeemed and restored Israel, and try to confound it with the Church?

 

[Enoch111]

Any kind of topic about Israel brings the Dispensationalists out to play.These hold to a solidarity with unbelieving Jews.

Why don't you take some time to study Romans 9-11 before making such absurd remarks?

It is only repentant, believing, redeemed, regenerated Jews which will be in the future redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel under Christ. That is what the prophecy of Ezekiel is all about. So please stop spreading lies about Dispensationalists (like at least one other poster).

Interpreting the prophecy of Ezekiel (along with all the other prophecies from Genesis to Malachi) means taking the plain meaning of the text and understanding it in the light of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants. These are EVERLASTING COVENANTS, and the establishment of the Church does not conflict with God's plan for redeemed and restored Israel on earth.

The very fact that you and many other Christians REFUSE TO BELIEVE GOD shows an underlying unbelief. And that is a very serious matter. Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, but when Christians have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and yet refuse to believe His plan for future Israel, that is pure UNBELIEF.

 

[Episkopos]

Why don't you take some time to study Romans 9-11 before making such absurd remarks?

It is only repentant, believing, redeemed, regenerated Jews which will be in the future redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel under Christ. That is what the prophecy of Ezekiel is all about. So please stop spreading lies about Dispensationalists (like at least one other poster).

Interpreting the prophecy of Ezekiel (along with all the other prophecies from Genesis to Malachi) means taking the plain meaning of the text and understanding it in the light of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants. These are EVERLASTING COVENANTS, and the establishment of the Church does not conflict with God's plan for redeemed and restored Israel on earth.

The very fact that you and many other Christians REFUSE TO BELIEVE GOD shows an underlying unbelief. And that is a very serious matter. Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, but when Christians have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and yet refuse to believe His plan for future Israel, that is pure UNBELIEF.

Actually your premise is simply the triumph of natural thinking over the spiritual.

I would be glad to go over Romans 9 and 10! They say exactly the opposite of what you are espousing.

 

[Episkopos]

Christians should not put their own spin on Bible prophecy. What I have summarized is stated there in plain simple language by Ezekiel. This prophecy has nothing to do with Christ and the Church, which is His Body. Indeed the Church was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets, as clearly stated by Paul, and as revealed to Paul.

The Church is not future Israel, neither is future Israel the Church. The 12 tribes will be literally settled in greater Israel, and no amount of fantasizing will convert those 12 tribes into the Church.

EZEKIEL 48
1 Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.

2 And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.

3 And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.

4 And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh.

5 And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim.

6 And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.

7 And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.

8 And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.

9 The oblation that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be of five and twenty thousand in length, and of ten thousand in breadth...

22 Moreover from the possession of the Levites, and from the possession of the city, being in the midst of that which is the prince's, between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin, shall be for the prince. [David]

23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion.

24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion.

25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion.

26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion.

27 And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion.

28And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea.

29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.

Now, the question for Christians is this: IF the LORD God (or the Lord GOD) says that this is how the land of Israel will be divided under Christ, who are we to question God's plan for redeemed and restored Israel, and try to confound it with the Church?

You are being thrown off by labeling here. The saints of all nations are Israel....and they will be among the tribes. It is a SPIRITUAL entity...the nations don't line up in eternity like they are here.

A tall person is not necessarily tall in the future age.
There are no men and women in the future age.
There is no correlation between wealth in this age and the next.
There are no races in the next age.

There are no Jews or non-Jews or any such distinctions in the next age.


So you are bringing a temporal reasoning and trying to make that eternal.

So very human!

 

[larry2]

There are no Jews or non-Jews or any such distinctions in the next age.

I was under the impression that ages had to do with dispensations I thought you didn't agree with.

It's also my understanding that all nations will be taught in the next age, and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

In that case, where will the Church be? Caught up? Thanks.