Facts about the book of James

[RichardBurger]

Oh snort! Come on! That's the worst cop out I've ever heard! "Yeah I was answering you directly, and yeah I was calling what your answer was religious and lying...but I never said your name directly, so you can't prove I was directing it at you".... ^_^ Whatever...comfort yourself with this view if you need to. I honestly don't care what you call me, I just found it strange you would say I was calling you a liar...since I never even hinted at the word! I also find it interesting that you didn't start insisting that you hadn't called me that until you needed something else to have a go at me with. All the verses I'm posting makes it pretty hard for a biblical come back, I suppose. Calling me a false witness (which incidentally is a liar...sorry, I see humour in that!) and going on about me needing to repent just seems an 'oh my goodness, look over there!' tactic. As I said...comfort yourself!

But never mind all that. You still haven't answered these verses...at all, let alone to my satisfaction. Until you do, there is no way your idea of '2' gospels can even crawl, let alone get up and walk.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal 1:6-8

"We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." - Gal 2:14

And those are just three passages that I've posted...you haven't even refuted all the other ones I put there as well. Smells to me like you cannot refute them...which sits well with me, as I fully believe that you have nothing to refute them with...

I am not going to waste my time with your ideas. I post scriptures as well as you and you do not address them either.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
NKJV

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
NKJV

Colossians 1:24-26
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,
26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Since you will not accept the truth, that the gospel given to Paul, for us, was hidden in God and has NOW been revealed; that it was not the same gospel of the kingdom preached By Jesus and the 12 --- I see no reason to accept anything you say. We will never see that same things in the scriptures. As I see it, that is your problem, not mine.

 

[neophyte]

RichardBurger, what do you mean ; " was hidden in God and has NOW been revealed ". Where is that stated in the Bible ? Also why is it that you people "cherry pick " only those verses that fit your religious agenda? Jesus only formed "One" church and it was that church of Matt.16:15-19 . Read the verses shown in Post #39. You avoid those verses, why is that?Why do you believe you or your Protestant ministers have more knowledge of the Christian faith than that given by Jesus to His apostles?Jesus based His Church on His apostolic teachers, not on your thousands of conlicting doctrines interpreted by mere -men with-out any Christ-given Authority.
Yes, it is the members that make up His Church but those members believe in everything Jesus gave to His "Authorative Teaching Church" ,then with that Church came later the completed Bible. Both Christ's Apostolic Teaching Church along with that One Interpretation of the Bible as it was intended are necessary for the "Fullness of the Christian Faith ". Your confused mess of man-made churches have no place in God's plan.
Show me from the Bible where Jesus gave somebody else His Authority to start future churches different fron that Apostolic Church from Pentecost 1st century, the only "Authority" was given by Jesus to His Apostles.
Breaking bread from house to house you write , you have not the authority nor the properly biblical ordination to break and bless the unleavened bread.
The only thing coming out of your so-called Christianity is constant arguing and dissention.

 

[RichardBurger]

RichardBurger, what do you mean ; " was hidden in God and has NOW been revealed ". Where is that stated in the Bible ? Also why is it that you people "cherry pick " only those verses that fit your religious agenda? Jesus only formed "One" church and it was that church of Matt.16:15-19 . Read the verses shown in Post #39. You avoid those verses, why is that?Why do you believe you or your Protestant ministers have more knowledge of the Christian faith than that given by Jesus to His apostles?Jesus based His Church on His apostolic teachers, not on your thousands of conlicting doctrines interpreted by mere -men with-out any Christ-given Authority.
Yes, it is the members that make up His Church but those members believe in everything Jesus gave to His "Authorative Teaching Church" ,then with that Church came later the completed Bible. Both Christ's Apostolic Teaching Church along with that One Interpretation of the Bible as it was intended are necessary for the "Fullness of the Christian Faith ". Your confused mess of man-made churches have no place in God's plan.
Show me from the Bible where Jesus gave somebody else His Authority to start future churches different fron that Apostolic Church from Pentecost 1st century, the only "Authority" was given by Jesus to His Apostles.
Breaking bread from house to house you write , you have not the authority nor the properly biblical ordination to break and bless the unleavened bread.
The only thing coming out of your so-called Christianity is constant arguing and dissention.

Read post # 41 and you will actually see the scriptures that say these things

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

There is no need to speak to the scriptures you are bringing because they generally support something you've said with which you agree - although the verses about the mystery which was revealed in the New Covenant era all mention either apostles (plural) or saints (plural), which kind of destroys your Dispensationalist point of view, that only Paul had received these revelations - and that the 'church' didn't truly begin to be founded, until his gospel (of grace). Gen 6:8

I've posted at some length today in the Galatians 5 thread, with several portions of scripture and references which also answer the points you've raised in this thread, and all you've replied is, 'Sorry, I disagree with you'.

You've not acknowledged that the scriptures brought there, and here, show beyond all doubt, that Jesus knew He was the Saviour of the world, and, that that's what He had taught from the scriptures to His disciples before His ascension.

They didn't make it up. They didn't learn it from Paul (whom they hardly knew), in fact, as Paul was the new kid on the block, it was the original disciples who gave the 'right hand of fellowship', to him - not the other way around.

However, Jesus, Himself, said He came only to the lost sheep of Israel. Don’t you believe Him???

Indeed, this is what He declared, but He didn't turn away those who came to Him - Greek, Samaritan, or Syro-Phenoecian.


Revelation 22: '... And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Jesus didn't say this because He'd discovered after He ascended, that He'd forgotten something important. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He had always known He would be the promised Seed of whom Eve had been told.

It's us who have had to have a progressive revelation.

 

[Rach1370]

Alright, how about this. I will happily answer you in regards to the verses you post here. But in return I expect you to do the same. If you do not, I will take it as confirmation that you cannot, and rest my case.

I am not going to waste my time with your ideas. I post scriptures as well as you and you do not address them either.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
NKJV

But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (1 Corinthians 2:7-8 ESV)

The 'hidden' wisdom here is the gospel of Christ. It includes all of God’s plans for the history of salvation from before the ages (“before the foundation of the world {Eph 1:4}), to the unending future of eternity (1 Cor 2:9). Clearly none of the 'rulers' or 'Jews' of that age knew of God's ultimate plan, or they never would have crucified their Messiah. So absolutely nothing here suggests a different gospel ...nothing.

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
NKJV

To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 3:8-10 ESV)

Again, this verse tells us that the glory of the coming of Christ was still a mystery before this time. Apart from a small crowd of Jews, no one had a clue that Jesus was the Messiah...and even the apostles didn't really understand what grace and mercy Jesus brought to them, or would bring to them at the cross.
And let's look just a few verses up, shall we?

When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
(Ephesians 3:4-6 ESV)

This 'mystery' was made know to all the apostles, not just Paul. The mystery...the wonder of the grace of Christ is for all, Jew and Gentile. God just appointed different people to take the message to the different peoples.
So, again, your 'mystery' here does not suggest two separate gospels...it is pure supposition and you are reading your '2 gospels' into this text...not getting it from the text. The word "mystery" cannot be interpreted in any way to mean 2, or separate. And the fact is you cannot make the context of the passage talk about 2 separate gospels either.

Colossians 1:24-26
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,
26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. (Colossians 1:26 ESV)

Again...you are doing it again! The mystery here is the revelation of Jesus Christ and God's plan of salvation for all people. His 'saints' are all who belong to him, Jew and Gentile alike.
Paul calls it a mystery because all throughout the OT the Jews, while longing for Messiah's coming, really didn't know what, who or how. That's why there was so many mistaken idea's about him when Jesus came. They thought he would become an earthly king and destroy Rome. They thought that when he came it would be the end and that God's kingdom would arrive then and there. Even his apostles thought this...asked him this when he was moments away from ascending back into heaven. It was a 'mystery' to them...but not to us! The Holy Spirit descended on all the apostles and revealed to them the truth. There is no way you can use these scriptures, with nothing more than a simple word 'mystery', to divide the gospel. Especially not after everything Paul does to tear down any such division.

Since you will not accept the truth, that the gospel given to Paul, for us, was hidden in God and has NOW been revealed; that it was not the same gospel of the kingdom preached By Jesus and the 12 --- I see no reason to accept anything you say. We will never see that same things in the scriptures. As I see it, that is your problem, not mine.

I've accepted the truth alright...I just don't believe what your pushing is the truth. Too many scriptures speak out against the very thing you are trying to make others believe. So, I've answered your scriptures, and I give you the chance, once again, to address some passages that I believe blow your idea out of the water. If you dodge, as you've been doing, or perhaps try and distract by getting all huffy, as you've been doing, I'll simply take it as confirmation that you cannot answer. And I suspect all the others here will see it that way as well. You keep talking about this Richard, but 3 verses that talk of a 'mystery' is not enough. Time to answer some questions or admit you cannot....

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal 1:6-8

"We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." - Gal 2:14

 

[RichardBurger]

Alright, how about this. I will happily answer you in regards to the verses you post here. But in return I expect you to do the same. If you do not, I will take it as confirmation that you cannot, and rest my case.

"We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." - Gal 2:14

This is your way of trying to control me, thinking my pride will make me continue in a discussion with you. It won't work.

It is clear that for every scripture I post you will find a way to make it nul and void. It is a fact that you do not see what I see in the scriptures and I would be foolish to argue with you.

If all you can see is one gospel taught from the beginning of time then you will find every way you can to support that idea. But I disagree with you and see no reason to continue in an arguement with you. If that means you win so be it. But the truth is that you have only helped me become more certain that there was a gospel of the kingdom in that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and King and that is all that Jesus and the 12 taught. -- Paul came with a different message of grace.

Since you refuse to see it you will always mix Law with grace and no one will be saved by that gospel.

Believe what ever you wish and I will do the same.

 

[Episkopos]

Richard Burger is on to something here!

Who would want to seek to justify themselves through a tiring self-effort when they can seek to justify themselves through a self-generated belief? Way less trouble!!!!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

If all you can see is one gospel taught from the beginning of time then you will find every way you can to support that idea.

It may not matter that you don't see that the gospel began in the Garden of Eden when God announced it, even though this realisation has come to many believers down through the centuries. (It's not peculiar to this generation or Rach or anyone else on CyB who's seen it.) But what does matter is that the testimony of scripture - of the effects of believing in Christ - should be your testimony too.

But you post that's not your testimony. If you are not following His voice; if you are not obeying Him (Father) now; if you don't know the power of His resurrection now; what is the evidence in your experience that you are 'saved'?

 

[Butch5]

Paul taught that Jesus did all the works necessary to reconcile a person to God. Why do you insist that He didn't and that man has to complete his/her salvation?

It would help if you gave scriptures to support your ideas. Here are mine.

Romans 5:10-11
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
NKJV

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
NKJV

Actually, neither of these passages says that Jesus did everything necessary for salvation. Jesus Himself said it was necessary to keep His commands. Speaking of the resurrection he said,

[sup]28[/sup] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,​

[sup]29[/sup] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:28-29 KJV)

Paul said that God would judge every man accorsing to his deeds.

[sup]5[/sup] But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;​

[sup]6[/sup] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:​

[sup]7[/sup] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:​

[sup]8[/sup] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,​

[sup]9[/sup] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek}​

[sup]10[/sup] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Rom 2:5-10 KJV)

Here we have both Jesus and Paul speaking on the necessity of good deeds.

 

[Rach1370]

This is your way of trying to control me, thinking my pride will make me continue in a discussion with you. It won't work.

It is clear that for every scripture I post you will find a way to make it nul and void. It is a fact that you do not see what I see in the scriptures and I would be foolish to argue with you.

If all you can see is one gospel taught from the beginning of time then you will find every way you can to support that idea. But I disagree with you and see no reason to continue in an arguement with you. If that means you win so be it. But the truth is that you have only helped me become more certain that there was a gospel of the kingdom in that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and King and that is all that Jesus and the 12 taught. -- Paul came with a different message of grace.

Since you refuse to see it you will always mix Law with grace and no one will be saved by that gospel.

Believe what ever you wish and I will do the same.

Actually, I do not only see the things as I was raised to. The Lord opened my eyes a few years back and I do not automatically assume that something is correct just because I grew up thinking that. Now, I make sure that the bible guides my beliefs...I must see valid confirmation in scripture before I believe what man may say. That is the only reason I push you. I do not see what you are teaching in scripture. I do not see you able to respond to scripture. I don't care what you say to me, I don't care if I 'loose' an argument. Pffft...such things are trivial. But the word of God being twisted in such a manner as this? Nope...its' not right, and I must be more concerned in how I stand for God and His truth than if I offend man. It's not my intention to offend you, but Richard...you are getting this very, very wrong. Your lack of answer proves this. I have not pushed you to answer me...no. Only to answer scripture, passages that seem to directly oppose what you believe. So Richard...when it comes down to it, it is not 'my way to control you' that you baulk at...it's not having an answer to give. You twist and dodge and get all offended, and I suspect when push comes to shove, you'll abandon this thread and just start another one. I feel just a little sorry for you, you know. You're working so hard to make scripture say something that it just doesn't. Must be exhausting that you must fall back on such tactics, when I can rest in letting scripture speak for me.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal 1:6-8

"We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." - Gal 2:14

I know I may seem harsh here Richard, but my honest desire is for you see the truth here...for you to be able to rest in scripture as well. I think we agree fairly well on salvation by faith alone...grace alone. But I am very worried about this '2' gospel thing...it's truly not biblical and it worries me that it may throw out some of your other doctrines. Anyway, I cannot refute you any better than the above verses can...so I suppose it's now up to you....

 

[Watchwithme]

Our works our to show the heathen our faith and our fruit, they are no part of a requirement of salvation. Baptism for example is a public show of our obedience to God to the world, it plays no part in our salvation. We are saved only by the blood of Christ.

There are only two beliefs in the world. 1. The true and biblical Christian faith of salvation through Christ alone and 2: Everything else. Clearly you fall in to the later, which is not biblical Christianity but merely a false and sinister twisting of scripture. This sort of thing maybe offensive to some as you say, but God allows it so that the truth can be revealed.

The Christian Religion is the same as every other religion in the world. Every religion entails some form of faith and works for salvation.
The Christian faith however is a different story, the Christian faith is based on a complete trust in the person The Lord Jesus Christ and what He literally achieved on the cross 2000 years ago.

Jesus Christ literally saved the whole human race, EVERYONE, sinners and believers alike, while we where yet sinners Christ died for us.
It is finished! Its is done deal. The Christians role, if anything, is to assist people to awaken. Awaken into what is already theirs, to receive it. It sounds a bit "new agey", but nevertheless it's true. No amount of "adding" some form of "works" to a completed thing will change it. Builders don't get up and go to work on buildings that are already completed and real Christians do not go about trying to "add to" achieve or earn their salvation. It's an alien concept to the Christian, certainly far from biblical. A Christian is a supernatural being who has been born from above and eternally sealed. This can not be changed any more than a Chinese man can change being Chinese.

Skeptics who try to use the Christian bible to oppose the true doctrine of salvation taught in the Christian bible are not only ridiculous but also hilarious. But I suppose it is the dawning of the age of hilarious after all.

 

[Rach1370]

Hey Watchwithme...who are you addressing?! Hi...by the way....welcome to the forum!

 

[Watchwithme]

Hey Watchwithme...who are you addressing?! Hi...by the way....welcome to the forum!

Hi Rach

Thanks for the welcome. I'm addressing the OP.

 

[RichardBurger]

Our works our to show the heathen our faith and our fruit, they are no part of a requirement of salvation. Baptism for example is a public show of our obedience to God to the world, it plays no part in our salvation. We are saved only by the blood of Christ.

There are only two beliefs in the world. 1. The true and biblical Christian faith of salvation through Christ alone and 2: Everything else. Clearly you fall in to the later, which is not biblical Christianity but merely a false and sinister twisting of scripture. This sort of thing maybe offensive to some as you say, but God allows it so that the truth can be revealed.

The Christian Religion is the same as every other religion in the world. Every religion entails some form of faith and works for salvation.
The Christian faith however is a different story, the Christian faith is based on a complete trust in the person The Lord Jesus Christ and what He literally achieved on the cross 2000 years ago.

Jesus Christ literally saved the whole human race, EVERYONE, sinners and believers alike, while we where yet sinners Christ died for us.
It is finished! Its is done deal. The Christians role, if anything, is to assist people to awaken. Awaken into what is already theirs, to receive it. It sounds a bit "new agey", but nevertheless it's true. No amount of "adding" some form of "works" to a completed thing will change it. Builders don't get up and go to work on buildings that are already completed and real Christians do not go about trying to "add to" achieve or earn their salvation. It's an alien concept to the Christian, certainly far from biblical. A Christian is a supernatural being who has been born from above and eternally sealed. This can not be changed any more than a Chinese man can change being Chinese.

Skeptics who try to use the Christian bible to oppose the true doctrine of salvation taught in the Christian bible are not only ridiculous but also hilarious. But I suppose it is the dawning of the age of hilarious after all.

Very good!

True Christianity is about what God has done for mankind. --- False Christianity is about what mankind does for the god of their imaginations

 

[Prentis]

True Christianity is about what God does in men also... Transforming them into the image of Christ.

The gospel is not a powerless past tense occurrence... But a present reality. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. As he empowered men to be as he is at Pentecost, so he does the same today. The gospel is not about getting carnal men to be saved although they remain carnal, but about making carnal men into spiritual men by the power of Christ. And for those who are spiritual, it is about bringing them to full maturity.


[sup]Eph. 3 16 [/sup]That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; [sup]17 [/sup]That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [sup]18 [/sup]May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; [sup]19 [/sup]And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. [sup]20 [/sup]Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, [sup]21 [/sup]Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

True Christianity is about the power of God that works in us. We have access now to live where Christ lives, and share the same life, and by this grace, we are as he is, because we are in Him and filled with him.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Prentis,

Every post of yours I've read, has been a blessing. Thank you.


To Watchwithme,

I've read your post to the OP, and wonder how you describe your relationship with the Godhead, now that you believe in Christ?

 

[Watchwithme]

Hi Prentis,

Every post of yours I've read, has been a blessing. Thank you.


To Watchwithme,

I've read your post to the OP, and wonder how you describe your relationship with the Godhead, now that you believe in Christ?

As they are one, I am one in them. John 17:11 [font=trebuchet ms']And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.[/font]